What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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mediclaser
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by mediclaser »

So, aside from printers, can we say another thing that sends beginners back to Windows is NVIDIA? Among those having problem getting Linux to work on their machines, the most common issue I have read is incompatible NVIDIA drivers.

The funny thing is when I tried searching for graphics card recommendation for a Linux build, NVIDIA card is the most common recommendation by experienced Linux users. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Why promote NVIDIA when Linus Torvalds himself hates it?
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zcot
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by zcot »

So... Unity then? lol

We're largely creatures of habit. Most any of the hard points here deal with our stubbornness or ignorance(the majority of users anyway) to be able to embrace the challenge/reward mechanism of a change(excluding the Unity thing though! -that doesn't count!).

If any of the hard-to-please users would get onto a Mint box this thread would be limited down majorly, well at least the whole hardware category is gone, and much of the rest of it is easy enough to deal with, aside from the latest greatest pc gaming - vlogging - streaming stuff.

On irc you'll see this a lot. It's just the fear, or unwillingness of change. Probably plenty have no patience and don't want any, can't fathom any benefit of any mental or physical part of this scenario. Users will rage quit because the file manager looks too different, or where's Microsoft Word?!?!, -just the fact that it's a different thing and it's too far to grasp that initially.

As humans we fill that whole spectrum and I think there's only a specific portion of us here from that spectrum. I guess it's just the way it is.

And it's not wholely the term "noobs" running really.

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Arch_Enemy
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy »

mediclaser wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:28 pm
So, aside from printers, can we say another thing that sends beginners back to Windows is NVIDIA? Among those having problem getting Linux to work on their machines, the most common issue I have read is incompatible NVIDIA drivers.

The funny thing is when I tried searching for graphics card recommendation for a Linux build, NVIDIA card is the most common recommendation by experienced Linux users. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. Why promote NVIDIA when Linus Torvalds himself hates it?
Wow! I was an absolute DIE-HARD ATi fan. I had ATi Video cards and ATi Sound cards (yes, until they got sued by Creative Labs...) and about 10 years ago I bouhg t a slightly use nVidia card from one of the guitar players in the band. I simply could NOT get acceleration to work, at all, and after about 2 weeks I decided to try an nVidia card. Installed it, installed the drivers, ran nVidia-xconfig, rebooted and...full resolution, full acceleration. I haven't had a problem with an nVidia card since. Now the drivers install themselves, unless you want the latest and greatest, but there is also a PPA for that even.
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Arch_Enemy
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy »

An aside for you: my next to the last ATi card. It was giving me issues, especially with acceleration, but one day I booted the computer and saw the Graphics BIOS splash. You young folks won't know what I'm talking about, but there was a text splash when the video BIOS loaded. ATi had a multicoloured text bios that said ATi and the version of the BIOS. I had not seen that for at least 8 years, so I was surprised. Then, the lettering, in full colour, MELTED from the top of the screen to the bottom! Man, we would have KILLED for that in the 70's! I contacted ATi, and they cheerfully sent me another card (NEVER had a problem with ATi standing behind their products) but, again, I simply could not get acceleration to work.
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

Back in the windows days I seem to recall ATI drivers being a bit of a pain to update compared to Nvidia.

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Arch_Enemy
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy »

MurphCID wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:56 pm
Back in the windows days I seem to recall ATI drivers being a bit of a pain to update compared to Nvidia.
Then you can imagine what it was like trying to get them working in Linux! :shock:
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:49 pm
MurphCID wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:56 pm
Back in the windows days I seem to recall ATI drivers being a bit of a pain to update compared to Nvidia.
Then you can imagine what it was like trying to get them working in Linux! :shock:
True that.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Davet »

I am a new Linux User, go back to windows, never. I am 68 years old and its so easy to get used to Linux. I have it on 4 computers.

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Pierre
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pierre »

Yep - the Modern Linux System, is now quite easy to use.
8)
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Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MLW »

First it's on Windows to mess up so badly that more people come to Linux out of disgust.

Games are the only reason I dual boot. More generally, software developers don't spend enough time making sure that their products work properly on Linux. Steam seems like their trying to make gaming more accessible on Linux, but did you know there controller doesn't even work without the end-user having to go into the terminal to install steam-devices. That's something that should happen with the initial installation of Steam. It's Steam's fault that such a blatant oversight happened. They're the ones responsible for their code, but do you know how long it took me to troubleshoot that solution?

Linux Mint does have a lot of issues which to me seem ridiculous. When I first went to Linux no-one told me I had to delete the old Kernels. That wasn't said anywhere, so when my boot partition became so full that I couldn't even delete the kernels, lacking the space to create temporary files, it pissed me off. It was such a stupid thing that nearly broke my system. Linux is always going to assume some background knowledge in Linux. You can say all you want that novice users don't have to touch the terminal, but they will. When they do they're going to either think it's fun if frustrating, or they're going to hate it.

Here's another: some software is in Linux but it isn't in the repositories. In Linux 18, PIA manager wasn't. I had to figure out how to add a repository. I had to download some installation code that had no wizard. I had no idea if I was doing it correctly or not, and it's not as if there's anyone around me who I can ask. Now I see it's in the Software Center and the Network Manager has even been updated with integrated VPN support which is pretty cool. I'm sure that it had a lot to do with PIA spending the labor to ensure they had access to the Linux community. If the developer doesn't do the work then the end-user is going to have to go into the terminal to compile code or edit files.

Here's another: On a youtube thread someone was asking me for help because they're wifi adapter kept on coming in and out. Wifi support is a big a hole in Linux driver support. What do you think someone's going to do when they decide to try out Linux and then their wifi doesn't work? They're going to run away. There are solutions for this, but they require a lot of effort. There could be some wizard, maybe in the form of a paper clip assistant, to get their hardware to work. You can't expect people to custom build a computer just for Linux. People don't have that kind of money. They want what they already have to work.

For me Linux is the better operating system. Most things are really intuitive and just work, but when they don't the solution is very complicated. If you don't want to spend the time to learn the system you're not going to deal with it.

Beyond that people need to know that this is the distribution that they need to go to. I can only imagine how many people tried out the wrong distribution of linux, not understanding what they were doing, and ended up in a place where only power users dare to tread. It would turn them off. They'd be horrified.

What Linux needs in summary is a better help center that automates the solution to common issues. "An issue with your wifi adapter is detected. Would you like to see if it can be automatically resolved?" It should be on the developers to make sure they're products work out of the box in Linux. They refuse to spend the little extra to ensure but as long as there's compatibility issues Linux will be difficult for new users.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by smurphos »

MLW wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:04 am
It should be on the developers to make sure they're products work out of the box in Linux. They refuse to spend the little extra to ensure but as long as there's compatibility issues Linux will be difficult for new users.
And here-in lies the issue. Hardware compatibility relies on either 1) The hardware manufacturer directly contributing code for their devices to the linux kernel, or 2) the hardware manufacturer co-operating with the kernel developers to give them access to sufficient information so that linux developers can write good code, or 3) linux developers painstakingly reverse engineering normally closed source windows / mac drivers to create often sub-par or limited code.

Unfortunately there is generally little / no money in the linux desktop - none of us are paying directly or indirectly license fees, so there is little commercial incentive for hardware manufacturers to play ball, although many do, but not all. They obviously have to co-operate with Microsoft to get their hardware to market at all, but it needs enough users to give linux unfriendly hardware manufacturers the finger in their buying choices for any change to happen.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe »

MLW wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:04 am
Linux Mint does have a lot of issues which to me seem ridiculous. When I first went to Linux no-one told me I had to delete the old Kernels. That wasn't said anywhere, so when my boot partition became so full that I couldn't even delete the kernels, lacking the space to create temporary files, it pissed me off. It was such a stupid thing that nearly broke my system. Linux is always going to assume some background knowledge in Linux. You can say all you want that novice users don't have to touch the terminal, but they will. When they do they're going to either think it's fun if frustrating, or they're going to hate it.
.
Also, .......
Today suddenly I got an alarm of low disk space and on using the disk space analyser I found that Timeshift has occupied 141GB space in 151GB of space allotted for root. and the time shift is active and is not allowing me to delete old snapshots. I am utterly puzzled what to do. If any one can help me to restore my diskspace I shall be grateful.
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=284530

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by absque fenestris »

smurphos wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:06 am
Unfortunately there is generally little / no money in the linux desktop - none of us are paying directly or indirectly license fees, so there is little commercial incentive for hardware manufacturers to play ball, although many do, but not all. They obviously have to co-operate with Microsoft to get their hardware to market at all, but it needs enough users to give linux unfriendly hardware manufacturers the finger in their buying choices for any change to happen.
Licenses back and forth - but all Linux users have paid for their - sometimes very expensive - hardware.
And usually Linux users are far more sufferable than normal Windows or Mac users (...except gamers).
In this way, Linux users are a not uninteresting clientele - even under capitalist perceptions.
Why?
Often they are able to get the totally screwed up Win or Mac systems of their friends, relatives, customers or employers up and running again. Maybe they will be involved in the next (expensive) purchase.
And mostly for free or cheap...these are costs that hardware manufacturers can save themselves.
The hardware manufacturers should consult intelligent business economists - biological or artificial... :mrgreen:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by smurphos »

For custom Nemo actions, useful scripts for the Cinnamon desktop, and Cinnamox themes visit my Github pages.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by absque fenestris »

I have read this and partly agree with the statements. But: I made Linux machines out of broken Macs.
The same with devices that had Windows installed.
Graphics card manufacturers like nVidia, AMD, various RAM and hard disk and power supply suppliers etc. have benefited directly.
Instead of disposing functional and almost new devices, money was invested in new and/or alternative hardware.
Not in the sense of the original manufacturer, but other manufacturers have certainly profited.
Of course, I'm aware that this is in Switzerland a hopeless micromarket. But if this is practised in the USA - and in India and in China, for example - things could look different.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MLW »

Licenses back and forth - but all Linux users have paid for their - sometimes very expensive - hardware.
And usually Linux users are far more sufferable than normal Windows or Mac users (...except gamers).
In this way, Linux users are a not uninteresting clientele - even under capitalist perceptions.
Why?
Often they are able to get the totally screwed up Win or Mac systems of their friends, relatives, customers or employers up and running again. Maybe they will be involved in the next (expensive) purchase.
And mostly for free or cheap...these are costs that hardware manufacturers can save themselves.
The hardware manufacturers should consult intelligent business economists - biological or artificial... :mrgreen:

That was my opinion on it as well. Hardware manufactures don't charge their clients for drivers. They make their money by selling the Hardware that is often expensive. If the drivers aren't right for my system the only thing I think is that the manufacturer did a terrible job and will purposefully avoid them in the future.

I want to know if it's really that difficult for the manufactures to develop for Linux. Going back to games. Is it asking a lot for the game to be developed for Linux, or is it just another week of labor that the capitalists didn't want to spend? I'm not a programmer, but it seems to me to be a small project which would at least pay for itself. Is it more about stubbornness of individual capitalists against open-source software? I know that there has been a great deal of resistance towards it in the past. Photo Shop doesn't port to Linux because the capitalist who controls Photo Shop has a vendetta against Open Source. How much of Linux's problems are internal and accidental, and how much of them are from malicious actors who's interests lie in maintaining the dominance of a locked down operating system filled with adware and spyware.

As evidence for my concern I only have to ask why my bluray player doesn't work on my Linux system? Doesn't the bluray player demonstrate the struggle between capitalist interests and opensource. It takes a day for MakeMKV or whoever does it to crack their encryptions. The only person harmed by the futile struggle is me, the end-user and consumer of their overpriced commodity. The likelihood of my over purchasing another bluray player is nil. The manufactures only harm themselves by not co-operating with Linux. A 2% market share doesn't seem like a lot but in a competitive environment it can't be ignored forever. Especially when that 2% is actively working to undermine their exclusion.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by SuperBoby »

Here is some fresh info from a user on this very forum. Please don't harass him to come back to Mint, but his points are to be noted :

viewtopic.php?p=1570674#p1570674
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Nixart »

I started using GNU+Linux with Red Hat in the early 2000's. I liked the idea, but until they released an ISO I had never actually considered installing it. When that was killed I went to Fedora Core. I've had a love/hate relationship with everything Linux since. I've never been able to completely get rid of Windows for a few recurring reasons.

1. Hardware compatibility. Earlier this week, I installed fully compatible drivers of my computer's sound for the first time in my ~15 years of experience of using Linux. (The chipset has been out for more than 4 years...) This has been a big part of keeping Windows around despite my disdain for Microsoft and Windows. I had poor quality, glitchy but functional stereo for some releases... but it isn't the same. I always had to have Windows around for movies and music. The driver support has always been poor, and there has been no change. It's always some highly-motivated individual who eventually saves the day.

It seems like there is always some driver issue or annoying bug with every install. At the moment, I have to unplug my mouse and keyboard several times before the MOBO will see them. It is usually fine once they finally do. I am currently in the process of trying to get my WIFI adapter working. For the time being I'm on ethernet.

2. Games. I've always been a gamer, and that is unlikely to ever change. It has only been within the last year or two for the tides to really start changing. Most PC games apparently can now work with Linux, even if they don't have a Linux release. I look forward to trying that out.

So Linux has come a long way for me lately, but there is a long way to go. It might actually be to the point where I can use it as my "daily driver" now.

I have used Linux continuously for certain things all this time, just never as my main OS (for very long, at least).

It is worth noting that I have console-gaming friends who converted a long time ago.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

So Blu-Ray players are NOT supported under Linux? That is good to know.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ugly »

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:19 am
So Blu-Ray players are NOT supported under Linux? That is good to know.
That's not entirely true. There is some support. I've found it a bit hit and miss. The issue (for commercial Blu Rays, such as movies and TV shows) is AACS encryption. Even on Windows, you generally need rather expensive software to play Blu Ray movies.

The are some databases with decryption keys out there that allows some disks to be read and playback. I'm not sure how complete they are.

VLC can play Blu ray movies, with some additional setup. Recently, I've noticed it's gotten better. For example, a year ago I tried Game of Thrones season 6 on Linux using VLC. It played without the menus and automatically played the longest video file (for a movie this would make sense, but for a TV show some episodes are longer than others, so it played the episode out of order).

I tried the same disc again just last week, and VLC seems to be able to play the disc with full menu support. Game of Thrones is one of the more complicated menus I've seen, and it handled it reasonably well. Some things didn't work perfectly, for example, selecting the commentary audio track on the menu didn't play the commentary (but VLC did allow me to select the different audio tracks using the right-click context menu like you can for any video file).

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