What sends noobs running back to Windows?

[MurphCID]

I think the "back to Windows" is the cohort that IS computer savvy and is trying to do "Windows things" that linux simply can't do or that linux does something differently which to them means not as well.

I believe this to be spot on. People who get along well with Linux are either very computer savvy, or not at all; the first category knows all they need to make themselves at home no matter what OS they are on, and the second will feel at home as soon as they have some programs that are familiar enough. A browser, a text editor, basic stuff. It's the 'in betweens' that sometimes have a harder time.

I am somewhere in the middle myself, on the more computer savvy half of the board but still well within the fat part of the bell curve, and I use Linux.

But yes, I am in the minority. Most people who are as savvy as me do a lot more gaming, or photography or something that pretty much requires a Windows machine or possibly a Mac. Or it's just easier to keep to Windows on your own personal computer if you have to use it at work: switching between operating systems is a source of irritation for many, including me.

I keep a Windows installation on my desktop computer for a few games, Microsoft Office just in case I need it, and keeping in touch with the Windows environment in general. Well, that was my only computer and OS for a few weeks, and for every day I used it as my main, I found the irritating parts about it matter less and less. Honestly, I'm not entirely sure if I would have actually switched to Linux from Windows on my new laptop if it weren't for the fact that the SSD is only 128 GB and Windows takes up a lot of space in comparison. Now when I'm actually back to using a Linux distro every day, I can't truly understand what even made me consider it, but it might be the fact that I grew up with Windows and never completely abandoned it (was never allowed to doe to how the world works), so it doesn't seem too bad once I'm back in that environment.

In any case, it would have made me crawl back to Windows after fifteen years of Linux being the primary OS on my primary computer. Someone who is only a couple of weeks to a moth in? Yes, they will not only run, but sprint.

I should add that I had a Mac between 2009 and 2015, and have used OS X 10.5 Leopard to 10.9 Mavericks, and I liked it just as much as the Linux distros/desktop environments I have used.

I am on the low end of the bell curve. I keep Windows on my desktop machine since I game (some), use Photoshop, and have a large iTunes library. I seem to not have much of a problem switching between the two, but Linux is on three laptops and the only one I have issues with is the old Darter Pro which has POP OS installed. You made some very good points above. Linux is SO MUCH more space efficient than Windows. I also have a Mac, and the Mac OS irritates me because it is too different from Windows. The Mac sits in a drawer and only gets brought out every couple of months to do updates. It eventually will get transitioned to Linux eventually. The thing that keeps me from doing that is it has a Retina screen, and I need fractional scaling to work in Linux so that I can really see the screen well.

[Thaeri]

The thing that keeps me from doing that is it has a Retina screen, and I need fractional scaling to work in Linux so that I can really see the screen well.

My new laptop has a 14-inch 1080p screen, so while I don't need fractional scaling, it will be a nice bonus once it works well in Mint. For now, ctrl + is my new best friend when it comes to websites, and I've set the terminal and my e-book app to use larger fonts and so on.

I can tell you that no one else in my family would have the patience to deal with that, and not many of my friends either. Then again, most of my friends who do have laptops this small and light use Macs, so there's that... I help my parents with their laptops, but since they don't really care much about portability, they don't need fractional scaling to say the least, so the reason for them to keep Windows is simply because of familiarity, and they really need the comfort of that familiarity.

[Drugwash]

Me again...like a cockroach that just wouldn't die.

Right now in this moment I need to run back to Windows for a precise reason: my home surveillance system bought about two years ago and never used is now mounted and I tried to access it through the local network on this Mint's assortment of browsers; none of them worked and none of them ever will, because the access requires a precise ActiveX control that is - guess what! - available only for Windows/Internet Explorer.
There was no setup CD in the package, only a small piece of paper explaining the very basics operation. Found a PDF document online that details things much better and which specifies the ActiveX requirement as well as a link to obtain an additional application.
So I downloaded it, fired up a VBoxed XP-SP4, installed the ActiveX and - lo and behold! - the control panel appeared in all its splendor and fully usable, whereas in all Mint browsers it was just a few buttons with no effect whatsoever. Only Falkon of them all posted a "can't load plug-in" message that triggered the idea of something else being required, prompting my web quest for more information.

Here's an image of the dreaded cheap chinese device:


And for those who usually say "use a VM instead of dual boot or whatever" I say it may work as long as the host machine has enough resources for that; yesterday I had two long-lasting (30+ minutes) crashes in the VBox when trying to set up the ActiveX and all the shebang in XP, because for some unknown reason the 1.5GB of RAM (out of a total 4GB) previously assigned to the XP virtual image were suddenly too much for Mint, although there was no other significant host application running that would require more memory. Mint just became too hungry, maybe after some of the updates. And no, the machine/chipset can't take more than 4GB of RAM, and even if it did I'm flat broke and unemployed so can't buy more. What if an application required Win7/8/10/11 with their always increasing demands...?

Yeah, I know: "it's nobody's fault, suck it up and keep walking".
Next episode: why do noobs/users run back to windows? because of poor/bad/stupid decisions taken "upstairs".
Or maybe I hopefully die before that. May I rest in pieces peace.

[RollyShed]

Right now in this moment I need to run back to Windows for a precise reason: my home surveillance system bought about two years ago and never used is now mounted and I tried to access it through the local network on this Mint's assortment of browsers; none of them worked and none of them ever will, because the access requires a precise ActiveX control that is - guess what! - available only for Windows/Internet Explorer.

You might want to start this in a new thread on security cameras.

The Shed security system I maintain has cameras that look identical. I access the security box on our network (it is plugged into a switch box) via Firefox and a URL number 192.168.xx.x or some-such and it asks for user name and password which are admin and 123456, both stored by default by the browser. The camera's recordings can be downloaded and checked. If a camera has recorded all night it will be a spider thread waving.
To check what the setup is, a monitor (VGA or your one VGA or HDMI) is plugged in and each or all cameras can be viewed in real time.

All of our computers run Linux Mint.

[Drugwash]

No need for a separate thread, it was just an example of why, as per the topic title.
I know what I'm doing and it doesn't work in Mint under any browser (Falkon, Waterfox Classic, Firefox, Tor (won't accept unsecure connections), Pale Moon, Basilisk, pre/SeaMonkey, Opera). It only works in XP/IE8 (and Lunascape6+Triton engine) with the ActiveX installed, and that XP is a VBox install under the same Mint so if it works there it should work in Mint too if it weren't for the ActiveX. There are many hardware versions of those boxes and there are also many software versions. This is just one of the unlucky ones.

[aandmsantos0910]

Fun thread, important question.

For me I have been using Linux since 2007. I would have to say in this short version that if a user can not use his/her PC the way they did when they had Windows installed then they will more than likely go back to windows. Of course that can mean different things to different people such as someone using the PC for work and they need to be able to use a specialized piece of software for work but can not do so in Linux or a hardcore gamer who wants a certain game to run in Linux and not just run but run as good as it did in windows. You get the picture! Anyways I can not say I blame them since they pay for a PC and want it to work so they can use it how they want/need too for work/play or whatever else they can think up.
And I have to agree with some of the other responses that technical support via forum and man pages is not for everyone. Just assuming someone will understand some of the terminology in the forum or man page is a bad start since most will not. As for me I love learning new things but most end users are not that way. At any rate as much as I love Linux I see this 1 item as a big hurdle for most windows or mac users looking to convert over to Linux.
So to wrap this up As much as I love Linux and would love to see more people convert over to Linux I still see much work needed to accomplish this. And who knows if this ever becomes a reality will we start seeing others start to say the same things about Linux that we now say about Windows and MAC? Will Linux become the bad OS and will another OS be created and then the whole cycle starts over? Wow that would be crazy, lol

[Drugwash]

Will Linux become the bad OS and will another OS be created and then the whole cycle starts over?

To me that is not a question of if, it's a question of when. And signs are already there that it's happening, at least for the former part.

if a user can not use his/her PC the way they did when they had Windows installed then they will more than likely go back to windows.

That is one of the most important issues: usage patterns. Put aside all tinkering required to change aspect, (un)install software and all that - if one cannot get to the same workflow or as similar as possible, they will feel rejection.
In my opinion, asking for password dozens of times daily for operations that Windows never cared about is purely insane, and may be the major reason for sudden abandonment of Linux. Some may argue this is one of Linux's strengths but most if not all newcomers will beg to differ.
Changing this behavior is another weak point: it requires manually editing configuration files that nobody in the world would know about if not very reluctantly instructed in some obscure forum comment or dedicated site article. There is no readily available GUI space to provide a more controlled environment for that option should the user really want/need it. Not to mention the existing password change option does not allow less that six characters, completely disregarding user's will.

Another issue quite important at least for part of the users is the overall aspect of the OS. Theme colors, icons type, buttons, window borders, and so on - these all make the environment that the user has to live with, in many cases for hours daily. If the user doesn't feel comfortable with the default aspect, and trying to change it doesn't (easily) provide them with any desired setup then they will leave.
Some are young users already accustomed to the minimalistic, flat style; others are old-school users that prefer a healthy, rich style with vibrant and meaningful icons/buttons/titlebars/etc just as it was in Windows XP/7 (and in 98SE/ME with Tihiy's Revolutions Pack, if anyone remembers those days). I'm one of the latter, and searching thoroughly through the few Linux theme hosts found online left me with a bitter taste: nothing to my liking.
So I started to port the old theme from the XP machine to this Mint 19. I'm still working on it, sometimes, after almost two years. No idea how many of the former Windows users would do the same when they couldn't find anything to their liking or needs. And it all has to be done manually because there is no tool out there that could do the job fully; Oomox is half-baked at most, and haven't heard about another one, not to mention about at least a minimalistic attempt baked into the OS similar to what Windows had ever since Win95. Someone on Mint's blog recently mentioned all similar requests have either been ignored or closed. Well, that could definitely make people run back to where they do have at least a semblance of a choice.

There is also a more complex issue of backward compatibility that in Linux is almost null in certain areas. Be it in various libraries that from one version to another introduces new APIs that are not quite needed while removing old APIs that existing software depends on, be it in the kernel that deprecates and removes support for various "older" hardware with no regard of the current usage of such hardware. Users are being constantly pushed to update and upgrade the OS, and when they find out certain hardware and/or software won't work (correctly or at all) anymore they're told to upgrade their hardware/software or just... "c'est la vie, suck it up or go back to Windows". And in many cases they do, only to find out they're rejected there too. Tough!
Sure, the "solutions" are readily available: Snap and Flatpak. Install a few dozen mini-operating systems inside the main one (if there is enough free space, that is) because developers screwed up the model big time and have no freakin' idea how to fix it properly.

There would be way too much to list here if it were to take all issues one by one including the minor - but sometimes annoying if they repeat too often - ones. Some can be corrected with a lot of time and patience - something not everybody can afford, for various reasons - and some are inherent to the currently installed OS version, and there is no way to fix them - maybe because they've been introduced as "features" or removed in subsequent OS versions as deemed unimportant/cumbersome/etc. Such as removing the extra titlebar buttons (Menu, Sticky, Shade - which I use frequently) starting with Mint 20.x and the upcoming planned removal of metacity (which my manually ported theme relies on) starting with Mint 21.x.

Anyway, the Terminal is not at all suitable for the complexity of today's Linux versus the former Windows users' habits and knowledge, and unfortunately there still isn't a proper GUI-oriented vision that could help in dealing with the various "hidden" features a user may need to tinker with. And that's all for now, I'm too tired.

[cretsiah]

had the opposite happen with my 9yr old.....

wanted to run back to linux mint

story goes:

the ryzen 5 3400G developed issues from the windows 10 2H version series,
- update boot loops
- graphics screwy
- log-in in-accessable
- sudden reboots ( not always update related )
- sudden shutdowns

wanted his linux mint back at least then he could play his games like
- minecraft
- subnautica
- ravenfield
- world of tanks
and he could access his school work (when we were in lockdown ) , still watch his favourite youtube channels

[Drugwash]

Well, that was the next best thing for him at the time. Children are generally more resiliant than adults, one of the reason being they didn't yet get to achieve many habits and preferences, they're still learning and developing taste. And when they do have certain fixed goals then they would accept any alternative way that could lead them to achieving that goal.

For adults however, when they have a relatively well-established routine, even tiny distractions and mismatches and whatever can negatively affect their state of mind, and thus behavior and so on. Learning curves, even steep ones sometimes, are not so well received by some. Ideally the frame that is an operating system should be lenient enough to allow any possible combination of needs and desires with maximum possible backward compatibility. And that should happen natively, not through ugly tricks like Flatpak. At least that's my personal point of view as a two-year Mint 19.x user after almost 25 years of Windows.

[smurphos]

For adults however, when they have a relatively well-established routine, even tiny distractions and mismatches and whatever can negatively affect their state of mind, and thus behavior and so on

Old dog, New tricks syndrome eh, Simple answer - Don't be an old dog - everyday should be a learning day or its a wasted day.

[Drugwash]

Glad to see you back, thought you were lost in... translation.

Your point can be valid unless other issues prevent it from that. For example bad eyesight (or complete blindness, relying on screen readers), bad memory, certain syndroms... Pesonally I have both bad eyesight and bad memory, I tend to only remember the very first place where I put a new thing - whatever that is - and always look for it there; if misplaced by accident it's a tragedy. As such, having same applications installed, same position of icons on desktop and panels, same theme and hotkeys and everything else as it was for a long time, would be a must. I hate that, I hate myself for being so "damaged" but as long as I'm still alive it's best for things to remain as I know them. I can only imagine there can be other people in similar situations, for which the transition should be seamless and new daily routine should be as close as the original. Otherwise we may as well retire... from life altogether.

[smurphos]

Glad to see you back, thought you were lost in... translation.

LOL, I've been lost in moving to a new country, trying to learning a new language, and starting a new business - lots of learning days.

[Drugwash]

Yep, that's some sort of horizontal translation, mathematically speaking. I'm curious how you find the Portuguese language.

Some time ago I promised to send you my theme for review and advices; never got to do that, and you probably have other important things to do now. Besides, if they really do away with metacity starting with Mint 21 there would be no point in working on it anymore since it primarily relies on metacity for rendering the images.

[MurphCID]

Some really great posts here. I have learned quite a bit.

[ivar]

those of you that got burned by bad win10 updates might find this video interesting..:

(ex MS employee on pre-release testing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9kn8_oztsA

[MurphCID]

those of you that got burned by bad win10 updates might find this video interesting..:

(ex MS employee on pre-release testing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9kn8_oztsA

I like watching him, and you are correct, the real world ARE the beta testers for Microsoft.

[AwesomeOpossum74]

I'm not going to add anything to the list. All of the moves from Windows to Linux that happened (outside my home) were due to Windows OS failures. They didn't want to pay for another Windows license, or get new hardware, so were ok with trying Linux. In all instances, they eventually moved back to Windows because they needed Windows-only professional software like Office, Quickbooks, or gaming. Just the way it was. These days I don't even offer Linux as an alternative, because people need familiarity and compatibility.

In my house, things are finally different. I've been exclusively using Linux since early 2000s. When my son's school started offering Chromebooks, I was happy. When the school stopped strictly requiring MS Office Word and Powerpoint documents, I was even happier. Then when my wife's Windows laptop OS finally died, she let me install Linux on it.

Now, other than our work laptops, this house is exclusively Linux/Android/Chrome. Choice is powerful.

[RollyShed]

All of the moves from Windows to Linux that happened (outside my home) were due to Windows OS failures. They didn't want to pay for another Windows license, or get new hardware, so were ok with trying Linux. In all instances, they eventually moved back to Windows

Outside of your home they stay with Linux because they don't need any Windows apps and they want reliability and an easy to use system. It certainly applies to all of the installations I've done, 40+.

[MurphCID]

All of the moves from Windows to Linux that happened (outside my home) were due to Windows OS failures. They didn't want to pay for another Windows license, or get new hardware, so were ok with trying Linux. In all instances, they eventually moved back to Windows

Outside of your home they stay with Linux because they don't need any Windows apps and they want reliability and an easy to use system. It certainly applies to all of the installations I've done, 40+.

I keep trying to get my daughters to use or at least try Linux and get told: Daddy it is an old persons system, no one uses that.... Also I use Linux on my laptops because it meets all my needs.

[ivar]

and get told: Daddy it is an old persons system, no one uses that.

.. then IMO windows is for kids and apple for those with more money than brains..

maybe this one is better suited for the younger generation..?
https://benisnous.com/garuda-linux-revi ... d-on-arch/