What sends noobs running back to Windows?

[Moem]

As always a great point which is why you are a Linux Guru!

I'll take that as a big compliment and accept it in that spirit. Thank you!
(I do not consider myself to be even close to a Linux Guru. Well, I am close to one, he's sitting next to me.)

[MurphCID]

As always a great point which is why you are a Linux Guru!

I'll take that as a big compliment and accept it in that spirit. Thank you!
(I do not consider myself to be even close to a Linux Guru. Well, I am close to one, he's sitting next to me.)

LOL, Well I have learned a lot for your posts!

[Lady Fitzgerald]

As always a great point which is why you are a Linux Guru!

I'll take that as a big compliment and accept it in that spirit. Thank you!
(I do not consider myself to be even close to a Linux Guru. Well, I am close to one, he's sitting next to me.)

LOL, Well I have learned a lot for your posts!

What he said!

[Drugwash]

This is a very long shot but if anything I just post it for the memory sake.

Maybe someone here that came from Windows remembers the old messaging application called Miranda IM, and its original forum board long gone now. For a few years until mid 2009 or so I was very active there, sometimes for 20 or even 30 hours in a row, when there was a situation that required urgent help. There were dozens of plug-ins, each one of them with their own configuration pages, and the number of possible combinations was uncalculable.
I used to take screenshots for the settings combinations required by the "newbies", and in many cases I had to test certain settings myself before offering the correct replies. The main application was mostly in an alpha stage - for those that know what that means - and some plug-ins were also very new, experimental, which would also count as being alpha. Certain tests would result in an OS deadlock which required a hot reboot. Used to perform such reboots even dozens of times daily, sometimes. And if anyone cares, that was a Windows 98 SE machine - a 667MHz Pentium III CPU with no more than 512MB SDRAM. A machine that still exists and is functional without any OS reinstallation, albeit unused for a few years since Internet stopped working for IE6.

What I wanted to say is, there may be difficulties when the GUI differs from OS version to OS version or from theme to theme or whatever, but at least the user would have a visual starting point, a cue - or clue - where to search for the options they need to check/change. And even if the interface changes from one version to another, there may always be users that cling to an older OS version or a certain (older) application/applet/desklet/extension/etc version, and the instructions posted in the forum boards would help them long after their "obsolete" setup loses focus. So if anyone can provide GUI help it will be useful now and may remain useful for quite some time beyond the official lifetime. Many people, and possibly not exclusively those coming from Windows, may find GUI configuration more secure and easy compared to command line, where - as I have already mentioned here and there - a simple casing error for a parameter could lead to unpredictable (and undesirable) results.

Personally I believe the lack of well-designed GUIs - and/or the complete lack thereof - has always been the reason why Linux has always been feared/rejected by most people. And now, after all the experience from Windows 95 to Win11, the Linux developers should have already learned to discern what (good) ideas to take from all these versions and what to discard. Unfortunately it seems they got it all wrong.

[MurphCID]

This is a very long shot but if anything I just post it for the memory sake.

Maybe someone here that came from Windows remembers the old messaging application called Miranda IM, and its original forum board long gone now. For a few years until mid 2009 or so I was very active there, sometimes for 20 or even 30 hours in a row, when there was a situation that required urgent help. There were dozens of plug-ins, each one of them with their own configuration pages, and the number of possible combinations was uncalculable.
I used to take screenshots for the settings combinations required by the "newbies", and in many cases I had to test certain settings myself before offering the correct replies. The main application was mostly in an alpha stage - for those that know what that means - and some plug-ins were also very new, experimental, which would also count as being alpha. Certain tests would result in an OS deadlock which required a hot reboot. Used to perform such reboots even dozens of times daily, sometimes. And if anyone cares, that was a Windows 98 SE machine - a 667MHz Pentium III CPU with no more than 512MB SDRAM. A machine that still exists and is functional without any OS reinstallation, albeit unused for a few years since Internet stopped working for IE6.

What I wanted to say is, there may be difficulties when the GUI differs from OS version to OS version or from theme to theme or whatever, but at least the user would have a visual starting point, a cue - or clue - where to search for the options they need to check/change. And even if the interface changes from one version to another, there may always be users that cling to an older OS version or a certain (older) application/applet/desklet/extension/etc version, and the instructions posted in the forum boards would help them long after their "obsolete" setup loses focus. So if anyone can provide GUI help it will be useful now and may remain useful for quite some time beyond the official lifetime. Many people, and possibly not exclusively those coming from Windows, may find GUI configuration more secure and easy compared to command line, where - as I have already mentioned here and there - a simple casing error for a parameter could lead to unpredictable (and undesirable) results.

Personally I believe the lack of well-designed GUIs - and/or the complete lack thereof - has always been the reason why Linux has always been feared/rejected by most people. And now, after all the experience from Windows 95 to Win11, the Linux developers should have already learned to discern what (good) ideas to take from all these versions and what to discard. Unfortunately it seems they got it all wrong.

I would like to hear more of your observations on this please.

[Drugwash]

Please check your PMs.

[Rooo]

but at least the user would have a visual starting point, a cue - or clue - where to search for the options they need to check/change.

Many people, and possibly not exclusively those coming from Windows, may find GUI configuration more secure and easy compared to command line,

Personally I believe the lack of well-designed GUIs - and/or the complete lack thereof - has always been the reason why Linux has always been feared/rejected by most people. And now, after all the experience from Windows 95 to Win11, the Linux developers should have already learned to discern what (good) ideas to take from all these versions and what to discard. Unfortunately it seems they got it all wrong.

Take firewall configuration,my noobish brain can follow a terminal config tutorial,i can copy and paste the commands (apparently there's no feedback when you enter a command correctly?) ... as to whats what,why it does it and what its attached to i have no idea ... just a black terminal with a history of what i entered.

in a gui (guffaw?) i can visually see all rules in one window,what menu/submenu they are related to ... its easy to click on an item to edit it,or read to get an idea of whats going on ...

thats another thing i noticed with linux gui`s = mostly no cancel button! - in win,i can mess with any setting,play with it ... click cancel and no changes are applied ... mostly in linux the changes are imediate,your stuck with that (fatal?) mistake ... there aint no learning chances here (cept learning timeshift is a good idea to undo what you just did - and yes i do like imediate changes too! = add a "protected" option for us noobies maybe??? )

Gui`s/desktops/themes e.t.c will always change ... the bones underneath not so much (some win7 tutes still apply to win 10 ... and probably win helleven)

btw - a youtuber that makes a non spam,no waffle decent GUI firewall tute is on to a long term winner imo ...

for me,its firewall configuration (rightly or wrongly) stopping me from using linux full time,right now i trust linux as far as i can throw it ... on win i can go to shields up and pass every test ... (i would test this in mint,but im on win right now )
https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2

(i still have my pentium 3 )

[Drugwash]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

[MurphCID]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

And I turn them on religiously, but that is me.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

And I turn them on religiously, but that is me.

What he ↑ said.

[ivar]

Same here - I just don't have the fine motor skills to operate a track ball - the pointer just darts all over the place - so my "mutter, mutter, mumble, mumble" has a few expletives. When ever I have to get on my wife's PC I have to plug in a usb mouse and switch it to right handed - even though she is also right handed she keeps the track ball on the left so she can write with her right hand while operating the track ball with her left hand . . . . . yeah, try that out.

around 20 years ago, I got myself a nice carpal tunnel syndrom in my right hand/arm. So to be able to still work (and surf the net) I learned to use the mouse with my left hand. So now I'm kinda proficient with both hands and can swap between them to distribute the "wear". Later went to a trackball for my left hand, but to call it "fine motor skills" would be an exaggeration, lol! Guess wrist pains works good as motivation

Im' fine with a trackpad , but have to turn sensitivty and gestures all the way down to avoid using too much expletives

My current home laptop got a touch screen too, only use it when scrolling maps.

[majpooper]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

And I turn them on religiously, but that is me.

I appreciate the sentiment but I have a Y router configuration so my PCs/laptops are behind a router that is behind a router so my PC is behind two firewalls. Turning on the firewall on my PC just wrecks my internal wired network. I guess I could work around . . . . but do I really need a third firewall?

[MurphCID]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

And I turn them on religiously, but that is me.

I appreciate the sentiment but I have a Y router configuration so my PCs/laptops are behind a router that is behind a router so my PC is behind two firewalls. Turning on the firewall on my PC just wrecks my internal wired network. I guess I could work around . . . . but do I really need a third firewall?

Point taken. I have a router, and the computer, so I only have two...I think.

[Drugwash]

For what it's worth firewalls are useless if you step into the danger zone.
I have never ever used a firewall, neither in Win98SE, nor in XP and least of all in Mint 19. Common-sense is much much better than any kind of so-called protection out there.
At least that's my personal opinion.

And I turn them on religiously, but that is me.

What he ↑ said.

If that makes you both feel safer then by all means use a firewall. Depending on each one's browsing habits it may genuinely prove useful.

I also disabled the Recycle Bin ever since Win95 (and it was kinda tricky to do that back then as it wasn't a readily provided option in the GUI). This Mint's Nemo doesn't have a Send to Trash (or whatever it's called) context menu option because I disabled it; there's only Delete. Guess walking the high wire without a safety net below somehow forces the user to pay more attention to what they do instead of relying on the muscle memory. Again, that's just me.

[...] do I really need a third firewall?

Not unless you're a masochist.

[GELvdH]

What most of the posts who are wringing their hand about people not finding Linux the super tool to solve all of their problems is they are forgetting that an operating system and the adjacent hardware are tools to accomplish a given task. If a company decried that XYZ software was to be the standard and it would only run on zyx machine you can bet that all employees would have the appropriate hardware/software.
Those of us who have transitioned through several different OS's and APPs over several decades are tinkerers who enjoy the challenge of learning and experimenting with something new.
Microsoft did a fantastic advertising/brainwashing campaign to promote their OS as the solve all/save all for humanity and it has paid of. Linux is a superb OS and that is reflected in the dominant use in the server arena. When someone asks me why I use Linux I tell them exactly what I mentioned before, I enjoy tinkering and learning with my hardware/software.

GELvdH

[Portreve]

What most of the posts who are wringing their hand about people not finding Linux the super tool to solve all of their problems is they are forgetting that an operating system and the adjacent hardware are tools to accomplish a given task. If a company decried that XYZ software was to be the standard and it would only run on zyx machine you can bet that all employees would have the appropriate hardware/software.
Those of us who have transitioned through several different OS's and APPs over several decades are tinkerers who enjoy the challenge of learning and experimenting with something new.
Microsoft did a fantastic advertising/brainwashing campaign to promote their OS as the solve all/save all for humanity and it has paid of. Linux is a superb OS and that is reflected in the dominant use in the server arena. When someone asks me why I use Linux I tell them exactly what I mentioned before, I enjoy tinkering and learning with my hardware/software.

GELvdH

I think there's a lot to be said in support of the points you've made.

If one were able to go and survey privately owned computer users in the 1970s and 1980s, it's a fair bet to say the overwhelming majority of them were technology enthusiasts. Perhaps that demographic might be a bit different for Mac users, but even so even in the graphic arts, the idea of a computer being involved in the process took a long time to catch on (and for the platform to catch up with many of the desired and required uses and features). If you took that same survey at various points in the 90s and then on through the present, I think you'd see a significant demographic shift to the present state where a minority are enthusiasts, and the rest are using the hardware for any of a variety of purposes, but basically it might just as well be a toaster.

[Jymm]

FEAR of the unknown.
UNCERTAINTY of doing something a bit different and so an uncertain outcome
DOUBT of their own ability.
The only thing you need to be successful on Linux is an open mind. Those that try Linux wanting it to be a clone of Windows with Windows software will fail. Those that forget Windows had a learning curve too when they first started will think Linux to hard to learn, so will fail. Those that are not committed to changing at all will fail. It is always much easier to fail than to challenge oneself to something new and succeed.

[majpooper]

. . . . . the rest are using the hardware for any of a variety of purposes, but basically it might just as well be a toaster.

This pretty much nails it, at least in my experience. The folks that I have installed linux for and provide support are all intelligent people who have succeeded in various careers but have absolutely no interest in getting involved with "tinkering" with their computers - they just want them to work which in most cases was failing to happen satisfactory with Windows for them.

[Fossy]

Back to Windows?
Never again , with the understanding that Windows never left here for the simple reason that Windows offers applications that Linux operating systems still cannot offer by default out of the box .

What sends noobs back to Windows ?
will probably apply to a negligible minority , the delusion that you can install a Linux operating system unprepared without a minimum of prior self-study ?
But in my humble opinion the majority of noobs who can put some effort into it become enthusiastic users pretty quickly .

Once a noob has become a "daily user", the next phase inevitably comes: have I made the right choice from the large selection of Linux operating systems ?
Does the choice I have made correspond to my personal conception of what Linux means ? ...

... That snap(d) does not fit into this, for me at least, is perfectly clear.

I do not exclude a priori any Linux operating system , the developers take care of that with the choices they make .

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[majpooper]

I think the "back to Windows" is the cohort that IS computer savvy and is trying to do "Windows things" that linux simply can't do or that linux does something differently which to them means not as well. I get it Gimp is not PhotoShop, GnuCash is not Quicken and you can't run your CadCam software or game like you do on Windows and, God forbid, the start menu is probably organized differently (actually I wouldn't know as I haven't been on Windows in 10 years). It isn't like those differences are not well documented and known so why are these people trying to fit the square Windows peg in the round linux hole to begin with?

It gets back to the toaster metaphor - at least that has been my limited experience. I have installed linux for eight people on various systems - two went back, or left linux (both from LM Cinnamon). Both bought new, one a PC that is voice activated Windows 10 that they really like . . . . OK, whatever floats your boat. The other a Mac because "they really like Mac." The common thread has been that they all use their linux systems in much if not the exact same way they used Windows. On most of them I end up plastering the desktop with shortcuts that they just point and click which in some cases their perception is that it is easier than Windows although they could have done the very same thing on Windows. Although the biggest reason they were interested in linux was that their Windows systems were toooo sloooow or crashed or froze too often.