What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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Drugwash
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Drugwash »

Actually as long as the machine is still connected to AC there is a 5V stand-by line that feeds the BIOS chip, so the battery's discharge is only due to the inherent chemical processes that take place inside it. A good quality battery can last many years in such conditions. When the AC is disconnected then the discharge would be faster.

If anyone still remembers there used to be those black, bulky Dallas BIOS chips that had a built-in battery. Some early 486/Pentium boards were equipped with those, I myself have two such boards and have used one of them for a few years. No idea whether they still have any voltage left. Remember back then the power sources were AT not ATX so there was no stand-by voltage to supply to the BIOS - the Dallas was permanently powered by its internal battery while the machine was off. Those batteries had to be of a high quality.

That said, my 98SE's battery had been replaced while replacing the PSU two years ago so it had to be OK. Got many other ancient machines though that I have no idea whether the batteries are still functional or not.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by RollyShed »

Drugwash wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:26 pm Actually as long as the machine is still connected to AC there is a 5V stand-by line that feeds the BIOS chip, so the battery's discharge is only due to the inherent chemical processes that take place inside it. A good quality battery can last many years in such conditions. When the AC is disconnected then the discharge would be faster.
Which brings up last week's incident. One of the, and it will be many, computers to have a Linux installation, "shouted" it was a gaming machine and all powerful.
Setting it up, powering down and then checking it again a day later, each time about 3 steps through the BIOS to get it to go. ODD!
I then realised it wasn't remembering what it had been told since the previous power up.
Yes, the CR2032 battery was totally flat.

The "supplier" of the computer thought it might have been in a cupboard for a couple of years.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Drugwash »

There is one variable that has not been mentioned: how long has the battery been mounted on the board before being put to storage? If it was already years old it must have discharged by itself partially during that time regardless of the presence of the stand-by power. After storage the discharge went quicker so that was it.

I usually check battery voltage everytime I have to work with a board so that any installed software wouldn't go crazy if current time went way back in the past - some applications, usually the shareware still in the test period, don't like when the date/time is being messed with. That is on Windows, of course.
Actually should've put this in past tense as it's been years since anybody brought me a machine for repairs.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by DPM »

kisho wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:34 pmBut to name actual examples:
Some of them are legit concerns, but others are not because Linux is not made to mimic Windows as closely as possible. It's a different OS, and rightfully so. I've seen two kinds of people doing well with Linux. First and unsurprisingly, Linux geeks. Second and unexpectedly, total computer illiterates. They don't understand Windows, they don't understand Linux either, and they don't even care, so it's a wash for them. As long as they can start their applications and do their stuff, they're good to go. The one group that has the most trouble is in the uncanny valley between those two.
- By default Linux and Windows saves the clock differently.
Linux does it the right way: always UTC. Only ever use local time for input and output. That way, time zones and DST will never confuse your system. In general, dual boot will always pose some sort of hassle because Windows just doesn't give a purple fish about potential other OS installed on the same computer. My way out of that is not installing Windows at all because I surely don't want to maintain and troubleshoot two OS.
- Using TAB in terminal to autocomplete folder names is case sensitive by default
That's because Linux file systems in general are case sensitive. Again, this is a good choice because once you leave the narrow scope of English speaking countries, it may not be clear what exactly "uppercase" even means.
- I make "folder.jpg"-s so Windows Explorer uses those as custom folder icons.
Windows specific hacks are Windows specific hacks. Not to mention that JPG is a bad picture format choice here and PNG would be more appropriate.
- Uninstalling some programs is a hassle. For example LibreOffice
That could be made better via one "central" package that you would uninstall with all its children. I tried to select that via Synaptic, but two logical tries gave me only a partial choice, and at that point, I'd already consider that as failed. That said, most people do want some sort of Office software out of the box, and LibreOffice is arguably the best choice.
- Sometimes more options are confusing. Like there are multiple versions in software manager for several programs. How should one know which one to pick?
That could be e.g. container formats such as flatpaks vs. native installation. The choice would be a more current version with potential security problems and more resource needs vs. a native installation, but that should be made clear in the UI. However, that would still leave the user with a choice that is hard to decide on without being a geek.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by RollyShed »

Drugwash wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:22 pmI usually check battery voltage everytime I have to work with a board
I don't usually, basically never have BUT with a bunch of computers coming to have Linux installed and of unknown usage, it is probably a good idea.
Thanks for the suggestion.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by RollyShed »

kisho wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:34 pm- Uninstalling some programs is a hassle. For example LibreOffice (which is installed by default on all distributions I've tried), coz apparently I have to uninstall every component one-by-one. It would be nice to have a chance to have an option what softwares to include at the OS installation.
Everyone I do an installation for (30+) and another 40 to do, will want LibreOffice.
If you aren't using the computer to do work with then I suggest you are in the minority.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Drugwash »

RollyShed wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:15 pm Thanks for the suggestion.
You're welcome. As a former electronics hobbyist I did learn a few tricks - some on my own expense. :wink:
RollyShed wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:20 pm Everyone I do an installation for [...] will want LibreOffice.
Had a problem with a presentation once: sound would go on but image was frozen. That was with the default (or updated) Libre Office in Mint 19.x. Searched for an alternative, found WPS; same presentation went on smoothly. Never opened Libre Office again. 8)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by diabolicbg »

Drugwash wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:39 pm Had a problem with a presentation once: sound would go on but image was frozen. That was with the default (or updated) Libre Office in Mint 19.x. Searched for an alternative, found WPS; same presentation went on smoothly. Never opened Libre Office again. 8)
Try ever writing a mathematical formula or modifying one written in MS office with WPS. No way! But Libre Office does it without problems.
Last edited by Moem on Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed a quote.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Drugwash »

That may be true. Never needed such functionality so far. :)

Thing is, we each have different needs and different demands from some piece of software, and so we search for the best one that can do it better, easier, more consistently and so on.

Those of us that come from a long time usage of certain software find it very hard at times to get accustomed to a - sometimes - completely different approach, be it the GUI appearance and functionality or the command line requirement. That in itself may not be the only problem - problem is finding alternatives, if any exist, can be very difficult. Software Manager generally provides old/obsolete versions that may lack necessary functions, and searching the web hardly returns useful results. Then projects on Github or elsewere may be too recent for the current OS version and thus incompatible, or they require compilation by the user, which in most cases is a deal breaker since few regular users have the knowledge and courage to do that, not to mention the tools required by the operation could be hard to find and put together or outright as incompatible as the piece of software that is to be compiled. In the end the user is left with a lot of wasted time, frustration and no usable results. That is one strong reason to run back to Windows where applications are much easier to come by and usually have a much larger lifespan.

I'll tell y'all a story. In short, I used to be able to customize the boot screen in both Windows 98 and XP back when using them, so obviously I'd want that in Mint too. There is currently no tool usable for me to preview either GRUB themes or Plymouth themes before installing and enabling either. I hate rebooting for no solid reason and running a virtual machine with scarce resources is not a good idea. A regular user would just give up, and it may even be the breaking point to make them go back to Windows. I, though, started working on the old Plymouth Manager and development seems to go well albeit kinda slow. Can deploy and preview any theme instantly without messing with GRUB settings or rebooting. Still quite a lot of work ahead before getting to a publishable version.

Last night though was wasted in trying to make grub2-theme-preview to work, after finding out there was no other similar tool out there. The version installed by pip is 1.3.2, it yields some 'not found' errors and does not display any theme, and trying to build/install the latest 2.6.0 requires Python 3.7 while the system only has 3.6.9; a quick search on the web returns warnings against installing 3.7 and making it default due to many incompatibilities - the Terminal included. So I am left with no choice but building my own tool for GRUB themes preview... or going back to Windows. Which actually is no choice at all.

You'd say this is BS, things of no real consequence whatsoever, people don't care about trivial things like boot screen and all... Sure, some/many don't care - they just want the machine to work fast and do their job. They accept any appearance, any lack of options, anything, more so when it's about the job. But I'm not talking about work here, I'm talking about the private life, about how the home computer looks and works like. It's quite expensive to replace your front door, fix the roof or repaint the whole house on the outside and inside; you may not like how it looks now but can't afford it. The computer though is - or better said should be - easy to customize precisely the way you want so that you'd enjoy the time with it starting from the very moment you pressed the power button. The software can do anything, it just requires somebody to provide the basic tools that can help in building other tools or changing various settings without having to go through convoluted command line syntax. And those tools should be kept available to any OS versions be them older or newest, because we each use more what we can or what suits best from the available offer, not what we'd want.

Personally I have to stay with Mint 19.2 Cinnamon for as long as this notebook will still work, as I have no income to afford a newer, more powerful computer, and because from 19.3 on certain features that I need and use have been stripped out. I'd very much like to have certain tools - such as grub2-theme-preview - work in 19.2 but if that's not possible I'll have to build my own, just as I did back in Windows when I couldn't find what I was looking for or it was payware. Some feedback would be nice and useful too when time comes. Please don't let Linux become as choiceless as Windows has become.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ScatteredThunder »

minty2025 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:50 am
ScatteredThunder wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:18 pm...
But I don't know perhaps Linux shouldn't be aiming at popularity, or in other words it doesn't need to compete with Microsoft or Apple. ...
I disagree, millions of people are about to be forced to buy new computers when they could carry on using their old machines with a lightweight Linux distro. My thin and light Jumper laptop is a couple of years old and was underpowered when I bought it, but with LM XFCE it zips along happily. Once I get Sim City 2000 and Alpha Centauri running on it, the Win 10 install will be redundant.

A more accessible experience would save unnecessary spending, and reduce the environmental impact of millions of PCs being built.
That is a very good point. I didn't know that Windows users will be forced to buy new hardware because of Microsoft's operating systems. I am obviously totally against such policy!

Hoser Rob wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:24 am
minty2025 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:50 am
ScatteredThunder wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:18 pm...
But I don't know perhaps Linux shouldn't be aiming at popularity, or in other words it doesn't need to compete with Microsoft or Apple. ...
I disagree, millions of people are about to be forced to buy new computers when they could carry on using their old machines with a lightweight Linux distro. ...
Not sure Linux is really 'competing' there, neither MS nor Apple gives a tinker's damn about users who can't affor new computers.
Yeah I get what you mean, but I don't think it's much use for Linux devs to be aiming at popularity because IMHO, popularity is the result of marketing and propaganda, not actual quality or competence.

One could argue that, technically speaking, the reason why people don't try Linux is because most x86 PCs come with Windows, and not everybody knows how to install an operating system (and it's not like they should know either). I also agree with that claim yes, but without the help of the "media" (or whoever controls the propagation of information), nothing can ever become popular. Linux operating system included!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

RollyShed wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:20 pm
kisho wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:34 pm- Uninstalling some programs is a hassle. For example LibreOffice (which is installed by default on all distributions I've tried), coz apparently I have to uninstall every component one-by-one. It would be nice to have a chance to have an option what softwares to include at the OS installation.
Everyone I do an installation for (30+) and another 40 to do, will want LibreOffice.
If you aren't using the computer to do work with then I suggest you are in the minority.
Even on those machines with Microsoft Office, I have LibreOffice since I refuse to pay for Publisher, Access, etc.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

Adobe Type Manager was a pretty decent program, and I agree it had the font problem under control. I NEED pretty anti-aliased fonts.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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MurphCID wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:26 am Adobe Type Manager was a pretty decent program, and I agree it had the font problem under control. I NEED pretty anti-aliased fonts.
Which fonts are your favorite go2s ?
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

all41 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:45 am
MurphCID wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:26 am Adobe Type Manager was a pretty decent program, and I agree it had the font problem under control. I NEED pretty anti-aliased fonts.
Which fonts are your favorite go2s ?
As odd as this sounds I like Arial, Avalon Quest, and whatever Apple uses for its on screen font (I can never remember the name).
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

Joe Collins has a video out on updating from Ubuntu Server 20.04 to 22.04 and he tells you to be careful you might brick your system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8_cQa6AjSw Apparently Ubuntu 22.04 is starting to hit and people are starting to update.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID »

That is why I think Mint is the best option, since it JUST WORKS. I spent this weekend after coming home from the doctors putting three different distros on my old MacBook Pro that I had re-purposed with Mint. Pop OS, Fedora, and MX Linux all went on. After various issues with each distro; Pop had a nervous breakdown after I installed the Cinnamon desktop to get rid of the horrible Gnome, Fedora Cinnamon the dnfupdater locked up each time I tried to use it, and had to update from command line., and then MX Linux never remembering the wifi and I had to re-connect each and every time I restarted (I liked MX KDE a LOT). Then I had issues, reloading MInt since I was getting some serious boot errors, but finally Mint 20.3 was back on the MacBook Pro, and it just worked. Cleanly, neatly, and without any issue. My only real desire is for fractional scaling to work, which is does not even when enabled. But that is a small matter, and so Mint works. So if New Linux Users need a distribution that JUST WORKS, it looks like Mint is the one. POP OS works, but Gnome is a horrid mess, that is so non intuitive that most newbies will run away back to Windows. My two centavos.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Agentl074 »

Looking back again, I would say that the main issue people have that makes them run back to Windows is the lack of information. Unfortunately, it took a CompTIA course to get me fully confident in computing basics, and the truth is that I never had to go to extremes. Mint is very well tuned by default. The biggest challenge is going from Windows 10 to Linux Mint and booting up the USB (can be purchased on ShopLinux if you don't want to burn your own ISO to USB), but you can YouTube that.

Knowledge is always power... unfortunately, so many people suffer from information overload... just keep things simple -- and take it once step at a time. Once you do that, you'll find that Mint is 100% better than Windows.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Valsodar »

What sends noobs running back to Windows?
The constantly breaking packages on their own for no reason + the lack of clarity on how to fix them. Before I switched to Arch, I used Mint for 4 years (mostly 18.3 and for a short period of time - 17.3) and in all that time I had many cases where I was watching a movie and suddenly out of nowhere during the movie there was this message "you have broken packages". The GUI option NEVER worked, the shell command worked only sometimes and for a short time. Often, after successfully fixing the broken packages, 10-20 minutes after that I saw the same message, either in terminal or as a GUI dialog.
On top of that there was no suggestion on how to fix these broken packages. When I was a noob (I'm not a pro now, just not as a Great Noob as I was back then), the lack of a suggestion on how to fix the broken packages was the first and only thing that made me switch back to Windows several times. If it wasn't for the help and the huge patience of other Bulgarian linux users, I probably would have stayed with Windows until today.
As a former Windows user, I can tell you what a noob thinks: "That overrated linux, everything breaks for no reason, there's no suggestion how to fix it... No such a thing ever happened in Windows, so I'm out of here!".
And I'm sorry to say that but the team that writes Mint did a lousy job with the distro. The desktop environment (Cinnamon) is simply amazing and they did an awesome job there, there's no argument about that (creating Something from Nothing (the Nothing is Gnome :lol: )), I'll be forever grateful to them for making Cinnamon and for keeping it alive, but the distro is a PITA for every noob coming from Windows. If you wanna make a noob run back to Windows and never look at linux again, push Debian on them or anything Debian-based: Mint/Ubuntu/POP/Bodhi and so on. I know some of you will say Mint is Ubuntu based but Ubuntu is based on Debian which means Mint is also Debian based, so technically I'm not wrong.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by majpooper »

Valsodar wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:33 pm
What sends noobs running back to Windows?
The constantly breaking packages on their own for no reason + the lack of clarity on how to fix them. Before I switched to Arch, . . .
Interesting - if that was happening to me I would not be happy either . . . . fortunately I have never had broken packages happen out of nowhere - it always has happened because I caused it to happen. But Arch ? ? ? ? . . .
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by diabolicbg »

majpooper wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:18 pm Interesting - if that was happening to me I would not be happy either . . . . fortunately I have never had broken packages happen out of nowhere - it always has happened because I caused it to happen.
I fully support these words - behind every faulty computer is a person who "did nothing". :lol:
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