What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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catweazel
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am
That, I think, is a kind of missionary zeal.
Well you're wrong. It's a funny cartoon.
¡uʍop ǝpısdn sı buıɥʇʎɹǝʌǝ os ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ ɯoɹɟ ɯ,ı

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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 am

gm10 wrote:You don't make money "selling" free software, so it isn't and never well be marketed, it's as simple as that..
.
Google makes quite a lot of money selling free software/OS, eg Android and ChromeOS. Google's free OS/software are very much like M$'s Windows, ie quite idiot-proof. Linux, not so much, ie not as idiot-proof.
....... The mass-consumer-market is filled with idiots or computer noobs or non-DIY'ers.

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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:08 am

catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am
michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am
That, I think, is a kind of missionary zeal.
Well you're wrong. It's a funny cartoon.
(M$)Touche.

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thx-1138
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:15 am

Also:
MurphCID wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:26 am
Winders just works. No command line tinkering,
no going under the hood to tinker with something, no having to write a script to get your wifi working.
..................................
*sigh* There is that. WIndows 7 was the best and easiest installation of any windows os I have ever done.
Linux Mint 18.x was pretty darn good as well.
...Really? Windows Just Works™?
I guess i'll have to take your word for it then (*sigh* twice & thrice - again, from previous pages):
thx-1138 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:17 am
...installation of Win7 SP1 previous year:

1) Resolution was down to 800x600 or something...ok, not really important, such was almost always the case under Win.
2) Neither Ethernet neither Wi-Fi was working (not cool...).
3) USB ports not working either (what the ****!)
======================================================
michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am
catweazel wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:29 am
thx-1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:58 am
...winxp/win7-like experience - sounds to me like we are talking either about zombies, or most likely, very dangerous perverts?... :)

XP-Grave.jpg


To all affected ones...do not desperate! You do can help yourself before it's too late -
visit your local Linux doctor today, and start intensive therapy asap... :lol:

Soon to also be added in DSM-5's catalog...

7.jpg

Image
.
That, I think, is a kind of missionary zeal.
Nope, it is indeed a joke. According to certain theologies, it's also 17 months until the coming of the Anti-Christ...
The secret gospels predict that the unlucky & unprepared souls that don't already use Mint,
will then sadly be confined in Limbo forever afterwards... :wink:

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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:15 am

thx-1138 wrote:My father, at 83 now, does NOT have a computer. He also does NOT have a cellphone. ...

...if people designed OSes with my father in their mind as a potential target customer group, well, Houston, we'd have a problem my guess... :wink: .
.
My father, at 83 now, is dead, does NOT have a computer. He also does NOT have a smartphone. So too is my grandfather.

...if people designed OSes with my father and grandfather in their mind as a potential target customer group, well, Houston, we'd have a problem my guess... :wink:

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:23 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:50 am
That, I think, is a kind of missionary zeal.
Oops, you're right... okay, you win. You've uncovered the evil and mysterious global conspiracy to discourage people from using Win '95. :wink:
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:24 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:15 am
.........................
Hahahahaha! Respect :lol:

...See, less work for the developers this way, more focused work..."let's eliminate dead code' :mrgreen:

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Schallaven » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:36 am

I wished people would stop using old people as an indicator for easiness. Old people are neither stupid nor unwilling to learn/adapt in general. It is a personal mindset.

Maybe, I should start telling about all the 20-25y-old students here who seem stupid and unwilling to learn. At a University. In natural science. :(
kittykernel - a cat-friendly, custom kernel manager for Linux Mint and other Debian derivates. Take a look or two here: Releases Github
Your argument is irrelephant - it's lacking elephants.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:41 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:01 am
Besides, a Linux Mint release can be installed and operated without Internet just fine and, unlike Windows, comes with a wide array of applications pre-installed.
Assuming, of course, that the hardware it will be installed on is supported out of the box. I remember Mint 19 install (might've been v1) errored out until I disabled the Broadcom wireless from BIOS. :P

That said, the inexpensive Raspberry Pi with ready-to-go SD card images is pretty great for this scenario.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:47 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 am
gm10 wrote:You don't make money "selling" free software, so it isn't and never well be marketed, it's as simple as that..
.
Google makes quite a lot of money selling free software/OS, eg Android and ChromeOS. Google's free OS/software are very much like M$'s Windows, ie quite idiot-proof. Linux, not so much, ie not as idiot-proof.
....... The mass-consumer-market is filled with idiots or computer noobs or non-DIY'ers.
Android and ChromeOS are a Linux distros, not a different OS. And they are making money not with the OS but with the services surrounding it including the user data they are gathering. ChromeOS only really exists as another delivery platform for the Google Play Store. We'll see how that goes, in particular their recent enterprise version. Android and Chrome OS are not considered free software, by the way.

My point was that a store will always direct you to the OS they can make money with. If you go and ask to buy an operating system they will sell you Windows, not Linux.
Schallaven wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:36 am
I wished people would stop using old people as an indicator for easiness. Old people are neither stupid nor unwilling to learn/adapt in general. It is a personal mindset.
You are right, it's a straw man. Besides, most don't really care as long as they can do what they want to do. I migrated my mother to Linux Mint a while ago and she's using it without problems. She knows nothing about computers, I doubt that she knows what operating system she is using, nor does she care. She is just using the applications, after all. As long as I make sure everything is where she expects it to be, with icons she recognizes, it's all the same to her. Should something break she wouldn't know how to fix it on either Windows or Linux, it makes no difference.

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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:02 am

gm10 wrote:Android and ChromeOS are a Linux distros
So, how come other Linux distros like Ubuntu/LM cannot be as successful as Android or ChromeOS.? ... or even MacOS.?
Last edited by michael louwe on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:05 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:02 am
gm10 wrote:Android and ChromeOS are a Linux distros
So, how come other Linux distros like Ubuntu/LM cannot be as successful as Android or ChromeOS.?
Market share and UI/UX design. As I said previously in this thread, Google is doing it right by completely hiding the operating system from the end user. They don't need to know and they don't need to care, they just need to navigate a UI that even small children can intuitively understand (I think old people struggle with it ;) )
Last edited by gm10 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:07 am

gm10 wrote:Market share and UI design. As I said previously in this thread, Google is doing it right by completely hiding the underlying Linux from the end user. They don't need to know and they don't need to care, they just need to navigate a UI that even small children can intuitively understand.
Agree.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:31 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:47 am
michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 am
gm10 wrote:You don't make money "selling" free software, so it isn't and never well be marketed, it's as simple as that..
.
Google makes quite a lot of money selling free software/OS, eg Android and ChromeOS. Google's free OS/software are very much like M$'s Windows, ie quite idiot-proof. Linux, not so much, ie not as idiot-proof.
....... The mass-consumer-market is filled with idiots or computer noobs or non-DIY'ers.
Android and ChromeOS are a Linux distros, not a different OS. And they are making money not with the OS but with the services surrounding it including the user data they are gathering. ChromeOS only really exists as another delivery platform for the Google Play Store. We'll see how that goes, in particular their recent enterprise version. Android and Chrome OS are not considered free software, by the way.

My point was that a store will always direct you to the OS they can make money with. If you go and ask to buy an operating system they will sell you Windows, not Linux.
Schallaven wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:36 am
I wished people would stop using old people as an indicator for easiness. Old people are neither stupid nor unwilling to learn/adapt in general. It is a personal mindset.
You are right, it's a straw man. Besides, most don't really care as long as they can do what they want to do. I migrated my mother to Linux Mint a while ago and she's using it without problems. She knows nothing about computers, I doubt that she knows what operating system she is using, nor does she care. She is just using the applications, after all. As long as I make sure everything is where she expects it to be, with icons she recognizes, it's all the same to her. Should something break she wouldn't know how to fix it on either Windows or Linux, it makes no difference.
So right, if it just works where they don't have to think about it, then they are happy. No matter what age.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:32 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:05 am
michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:02 am
gm10 wrote:Android and ChromeOS are a Linux distros
So, how come other Linux distros like Ubuntu/LM cannot be as successful as Android or ChromeOS.?
Market share and UI/UX design. As I said previously in this thread, Google is doing it right by completely hiding the operating system from the end user. They don't need to know and they don't need to care, they just need to navigate a UI that even small children can intuitively understand (I think old people struggle with it ;) )
Yes. UI/UX design. Linux could use some.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:24 pm

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:05 am
..................
As I said previously in this thread, Google is doing it right by completely hiding the operating system from the end user.
They don't need to know and they don't need to care,
they just need to navigate a UI that even small children can intuitively understand (I think old people struggle with it ;) )
...Hide it, hide the monster of Notre Dame! Put it under the carpet - we really should be ashamed of it!!! This bloody ui... :wink:

This post-modern obsession (also referenced previously in this thread):
"The OS is just a tool that the user ideally never even notices while using their applications of choice."

And although completely post-modern, it actually has it's roots in the most outrageous oldschool classic arts conservatism:
...ideally, you should never even notice the camera's movements in the film...
...ideally, you should never even notice an actor in the theatre breaking the fourth wall...
...ideally, you should never even notice the changes in tempo in and out of chorus in the song...
...ideally, you should never even notice the painter's presence but you should just enjoy the scenery...

Needless to say that...much to their dismay, most developers aren't artists as well
(and they don't need to be at all...but why lots of them insist otherwise especially post-00s, i don't know...)
Probably has to do with those Channel4 documentaries for Leonardo Da Vinci being frequently broadcasted...
praising the 'holistic' man, artist, scientist & visionary, altogether in a single package... :D

Nothing wrong with 'stealing' ideas from other areas of course...art steals from science and vice versa,
just make sure you remember from where & when your ideas come from, and don't over-do it by hiding stuff under the design carpet... :wink:
Somehow though, I doubt that even the over-hyped mr. Steve Jobs will be remembered in some 50 yrs from now, let alone after 500+...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:40 pm

That sentence you quoted I believe from me isn't an "obsession", it's simply common sense, the inevitable direction of progress. It's not about hiding stuff under the design carpet, but about not giving the user a reason to ever have to roll back the carpet to get at what's underneath.

I don't know how Steve Jobs will be judged in the future, but he had certainly learned from his earlier mistakes. You may have heard the phrase "Windows was not as good as Macintosh, but it was good enough for the average user". Something the present discussion should take to heart, too.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:40 pm
...........it's simply common sense, the inevitable direction of progress.
.....common sense says that ui design will eventually lead to...homogenization?

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:58 pm

thx-1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:40 pm
...........it's simply common sense, the inevitable direction of progress.
.....common sense says that ui design will eventually lead to...homogenization?
Likely. Not just eventually, it's always been happening.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:36 pm

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:58 pm
thx-1138 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:44 pm
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:40 pm
...........it's simply common sense, the inevitable direction of progress.
.....common sense says that ui design will eventually lead to...homogenization?
Likely. Not just eventually, it's always been happening.
...i wouldn't really disagree (fundamentally) that such could happen - but i admit i still find it very disturbingly dystopic... :|

Without wanting to get off topic, i would still claim that for such to happen...
AI & biotechnology should take place first, not just an 'aesthetic' design change upon just the....'surface' (of the tablet etc).
Yeap, most likely we will all end up...being half-cyborgs with AI and a unified 'cloud' UI for such in the not-so-longer term,
maybe say 5-6 decades from now roughly, or maybe a little later on, say by the beginning of the next century...
In such case - functionality from gui design will be totally inseparable - hence, the gui will be 'invisible',
having actually transcended it's own contradictions & self-dissolved itself as a separate entity in the process.

Can't say that this thrills me though (or that I should help speeding up such a process...accelerationism, hmmm...) :?
Creepy thoughts in the middle of the summer, very creepy...

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