But yes, we are rather off-topic with that now (it IS still about user interfaces I guess).

I'm having a suspend/resume problem with 19. Driving me nuts. i haven't tried manually disabling ethernet. shouldn't have to. ugggg.gm10 wrote: ⤴Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:17 amFor me it was the inverse actually, with the new release all my wifi devices work flawlessly out of the box (which not all of them did before). On the other hand, and very much to my surprise, my bog standard realtek onboard ethernet needs manual unloading and re-loading of the kernel driver now to get suspend modes working, which wasn't a problem before.
Please make a separate thread, this one is busy enough as it is.
Ah, but you're being unfair as well, by mixing their business practices with their UI.JosephM wrote: ⤴Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:05 pmSo now, 9 pages in and it's moved to "Google knows how to do Linux". I mean c'mon. I suppose we could start collecting all our users data. Sell it to third parties, make lots and lots of money. Hire developers to create a highly customized Linux version. Have the market power to convince large hardware vendors to ship it preinstalled. Yep, sounds like the way to go
Still, even that isn't a fair comparison. People don't install Android and ChromeOS themselves. They buy it preinstalled on things that are already tested to work. In my one experience buying a laptop from a Linux only vendor, with Linux already installed, it worked fantastic OOTB.
Not really. What they are doing requires money. And gobs of it. They get that money with questionable business practices. Not sure Microsoft is much better. The whole point behind people using Linux is to get away from that.Ah, but you're being unfair as well, by mixing their business practices with their UI.
True, although theoretically that goes for all OEM offerings, so it's not really a Windows v Linux experience thing.
Oh, I don't get offended that easilyAnd again, this isn't criticism of you guys or even Linux as a whole.
Ok, but if we're talking about what drives these supposed "noobs" back to windows, it really comes down to two main things. Lack of applications that they want or need and the initial setup process. If we throw out vendors who pre install and supply you with something fully working OOTB, that eliminates one big issue.True, although theoretically that goes for all OEM offerings, so it's not really a Windows v Linux experience thing.
True. Consistency and aesthetics matter a lot. You also want to be able to offer that out of the box without the user needing to edit a bunch of text files or knowing CSS.gm10 wrote: ⤴Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:13 pmThe consistency or homogeneity is key. It's why Windows works for people, and why there's an outcry whenever they change the UI a little. Linux is great of all the variety and full control it offers me, but even with a consumer oriented distro like Mint there is no real consistency but a mix of pre-installed apps based on GTK2, GTK3, QT or others, many not following common and/or current design guidelines and sometimes not even common sense. And of course different desktop environments. In that respect no doubt one reason of Mint's success is that you are doing quite a good job of providing a recognizable Mint "feel" across all offerings.
And again, this isn't criticism of you guys or even Linux as a whole. It's just an observation why the mass market is accepting Windows more easily than Linux. Personally I enjoy the freedom Linux is offering me or I wouldn't be here. But I'm also fully aware that I'm not the average PC user. Most of us here are not.
Hey, I even have Linux installed on my Windows, so sure, but let's face it, LibreOffice on Linux is fine but on Windows it runs like ass. And I wouldn't call Gimp and Blender mass-market stuff, either. Most native Windows applications do look and handle the same though because they use the Microsoft provided APIs and libraries/common controls.JosephM wrote: ⤴Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:26 pmWindows may give some consistency in UI design on initial install. Though from what I've seen many vendors pack in their own tools that don't fit that. It also goes out the window the minute you start installing any applications you want to use. And who doesn't? Let's be real here. I can install Gimp, Libre office, Gedit, Blender, Houdini, etc. on Windows. Then I'm using every one of those same toolkits you mentioning as an issue![]()
I really think the installation experience is overrated as a reason actually. The installers available these days make a Linux installation more painless than a Windows installation tbh. Also, as you correctly said, most users get their OS pre-installed.JosephM wrote: ⤴Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:31 pmOk, but if we're talking about what drives these supposed "noobs" back to windows, it really comes down to two main things. Lack of applications that they want or need and the initial setup process. If we throw out vendors who pre install and supply you with something fully working OOTB, that eliminates one big issue.
What if the smartphone UI can be replicated for the desktop/laptop.?JosephM wrote:. If we're now on UI, it also isn't a fair comparison. You can throw out Android. Those are phone interfaces that aren't designed for the desktop
Apple also controls the entire stack. Including the hardware. Something no Linux distro can do. You don't run around installing MacOS on any old random machine. And before anyone points out the "Hackintosh" idea, I'm well aware. If you think any kind of "noob" does that, you're crazyApple knows how to do "pretty" quite well. The Apple Store was also a brilliant idea. Having somewhere you can go to for in-person help and warranty support greatly helps adoption. Of course Apple's got, what, a quarter trillion in cash?
Hugely dependent on hardware. The wrong hardware can lead people into many of the issues being complained about.I really think the installation experience is overrated as a reason actually
There is no way you're selling me on this argument. I'll admit I've not used Windows lately. Last time I did it was no where near consistent. Microsoft's own desktop apps had a mix of ribbon and non ribbon style UI's. Third party apps were all over the place. In addition to that, you had the weird fullscreen apps that you could get from the Windows store. In fact, as far as consistency, Microsoft is probably the worst.Most native Windows applications do look and handle the same though because they use the Microsoft provided APIs and libraries/common controls.
I feel like you need to do a bit more research and reading on what most users think of that idea. What was one of the biggest blowbacks when Windows 8 came out? It was the phone/touch style UI. People hated it. On Linux, people rip any project they feel is going this route. You are talking about two very different use cases. A desktop has a keyboard and mouse. It's designed to be best used that way. A phone/tablet does not and requires a very different method of interaction to be productive. Sure touch screen support can be a useful bonus on an actual computer, but isn't the most efficient way of getting things done.What if the smartphone UI can be replicated for the desktop/laptop.?
What I had in mind is similar to the prototype ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaaCel-vgo (Asus Project Precog - A futuristic Notebook with Dual Screens - June 2018) and ...JosephM wrote:What was one of the biggest blowbacks when Windows 8 came out? It was the phone/touch style UI. People hated it.
...michael louwe wrote: ⤴Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:43 pmWhat I had in mind is similar to the prototype...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaaCel-vgo
(Asus Project Precog - A futuristic Notebook with Dual Screens - June 2018) and ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGShu0LzwQ
(ASUS ZenBook Pro 2018 with ScreenPad- The Laptop with TWO Screens - June 2018)
If we manage to do that we face the next hurdle of eliminating the "only free/repos ever" fanatics from our ranks so they don't manage to chase the initial group of "evil capitalists" away.... oh happy days ahead...
Complete and utter FUD.