What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:48 pm

Hmm. I was just responding to UI homogenization. I'm not convinced about the biotechnological angle. On the one hand, it's quite likely that the current overreaching governments will eventually start chipping their populations. On the other hand, I think one of the reasons of the success of smartphones is the haptic experience. These things are actually getting bigger again. And of course you like to show them off, show people what's on them, etc. All things you cannot do with a fully bio-technologically integrated solution unless everybody has one. Google Glass didn't sell, either.

But yes, we are rather off-topic with that now (it IS still about user interfaces I guess). :D

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by poncho524 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:56 pm

gm10 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:17 am
For me it was the inverse actually, with the new release all my wifi devices work flawlessly out of the box (which not all of them did before). On the other hand, and very much to my surprise, my bog standard realtek onboard ethernet needs manual unloading and re-loading of the kernel driver now to get suspend modes working, which wasn't a problem before.
I'm having a suspend/resume problem with 19. Driving me nuts. i haven't tried manually disabling ethernet. shouldn't have to. ugggg.

Find any other solutions?

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:05 pm

So now, 9 pages in and it's moved to "Google knows how to do Linux". I mean c'mon. I suppose we could start collecting all our users data. Sell it to third parties, make lots and lots of money. Hire developers to create a highly customized Linux version. Have the market power to convince large hardware vendors to ship it preinstalled. Yep, sounds like the way to go :)

Still, even that isn't a fair comparison. People don't install Android and ChromeOS themselves. They buy it preinstalled on things that are already tested to work. In my one experience buying a laptop from a Linux only vendor, with Linux already installed, it worked fantastic OOTB.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:10 pm

poncho524 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:56 pm
I'm having a suspend/resume problem with 19. Driving me nuts. i haven't tried manually disabling ethernet. shouldn't have to. ugggg.

Find any other solutions?
Please make a separate thread, this one is busy enough as it is.
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:12 pm

JosephM wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:05 pm
So now, 9 pages in and it's moved to "Google knows how to do Linux". I mean c'mon. I suppose we could start collecting all our users data. Sell it to third parties, make lots and lots of money. Hire developers to create a highly customized Linux version. Have the market power to convince large hardware vendors to ship it preinstalled. Yep, sounds like the way to go :)

Still, even that isn't a fair comparison. People don't install Android and ChromeOS themselves. They buy it preinstalled on things that are already tested to work. In my one experience buying a laptop from a Linux only vendor, with Linux already installed, it worked fantastic OOTB.
Ah, but you're being unfair as well, by mixing their business practices with their UI.

Your second point is fair though - people who install a OS themselves are already enthusiasts in my book, a step up the ladder from the mass market. That's why I haven't been discussing the installation experience personally, but only the user experience (and Android has that down - for its much more limited purpose - no matter what you think of their business practices).
Last edited by gm10 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:02 pm

JosephM wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:05 pm
So now, 9 pages in and it's moved to "Google knows how to do Linux". I mean c'mon.
:D

...personally i have no doubt that if you wait long enough, maybe say until page 100...
most people around will have transformed to cyborgs and...Androids,
instead of being mere Android-users...

...some of them have already mutated - sadly...no known cure for the infection is known yet:
it all started with those bloody smartphones from the supposedly don't-be-evil Google megacorp...
Human beings, resist - eventually...the mutation will become widespread and take over the known world,
like Black Death did back in the 14th century...and 'Windows' in the '90s... :lol: :mrgreen:

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 pm

Ah, but you're being unfair as well, by mixing their business practices with their UI.
Not really. What they are doing requires money. And gobs of it. They get that money with questionable business practices. Not sure Microsoft is much better. The whole point behind people using Linux is to get away from that.

If we're now on UI, it also isn't a fair comparison. You can throw out Android. Those are phone interfaces that aren't designed for the desktop. In fact, how many complaints do you see thrown at projects like gnome-shell for having a more phone OS style of environment on the desktop.

That really leaves us down to ChromeOS. Lets be real about what that is. It's essentially a very basic desktop interface that allows you to work in a browser. I'd like to point out that this works quite well under your typical Linux distro. I mean, what's the current "big deal" around chromeOS? Oh yeah, you can now install Linux apps. Well wait, I can already do that here. The real advantage is being able to go down to my local big box and buy a chromebook where everything just works.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:13 pm

Oh, but I agree with everything you say, I wasn't trying to find fault with Mint for not having the market power that Google does. It's why I listed market share as part of the reason for their success - they had the resources to push their model down everybody's throats from the start. And I characterized Chrome OS a few posts earlier as mainly a vehicle for their play store. If you're looking for a simplified Linux I like Elementary OS better, anyway.

No, the point I'm really making regarding the topic of the thread is that most users don't care what the operating system is as long as it does its job. They want to be left alone by it. Having a non-quiet Linux boot with all that text scrolling by would probably scare them to death. So what Android did right was to tightly package the Linux core in a consistent user experience that requires no exposure to the operating system so the user can spend time with their apps and the app store.

The consistency or homogeneity is key. It's why Windows works for people, and why there's an outcry whenever they change the UI a little. Linux is great of all the variety and full control it offers me, but even with a consumer oriented distro like Mint there is no real consistency but a mix of pre-installed apps based on GTK2, GTK3, QT or others, many not following common and/or current design guidelines and sometimes not even common sense. And of course different desktop environments. In that respect no doubt one reason of Mint's success is that you are doing quite a good job of providing a recognizable Mint "feel" across all offerings.

And again, this isn't criticism of you guys or even Linux as a whole. It's just an observation why the mass market is accepting Windows more easily than Linux. Personally I enjoy the freedom Linux is offering me or I wouldn't be here. But I'm also fully aware that I'm not the average PC user. Most of us here are not.
JosephM wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:48 pm
The real advantage is being able to go down to my local big box and buy a chromebook where everything just works.
True, although theoretically that goes for all OEM offerings, so it's not really a Windows v Linux experience thing.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:26 pm

And again, this isn't criticism of you guys or even Linux as a whole.
Oh, I don't get offended that easily :) I also have no issues with with intelligent, fact-based criticism.

Windows may give some consistency in UI design on initial install. Though from what I've seen many vendors pack in their own tools that don't fit that. It also goes out the window the minute you start installing any applications you want to use. And who doesn't? Let's be real here. I can install Gimp, Libre office, Gedit, Blender, Houdini, etc. on Windows. Then I'm using every one of those same toolkits you mentioning as an issue ;)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:31 pm

True, although theoretically that goes for all OEM offerings, so it's not really a Windows v Linux experience thing.
Ok, but if we're talking about what drives these supposed "noobs" back to windows, it really comes down to two main things. Lack of applications that they want or need and the initial setup process. If we throw out vendors who pre install and supply you with something fully working OOTB, that eliminates one big issue.

Outside of that, it's just having the willingness to learn how something new works. Windows users manage to learn ChromeOS or MacOS. Linux is really not much more difficult for your normal user. Linux users just like to complain a lot more since they feel like the people who can make a change will actually be listening ;) It's the nature of the beast.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:39 pm

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:13 pm
The consistency or homogeneity is key. It's why Windows works for people, and why there's an outcry whenever they change the UI a little. Linux is great of all the variety and full control it offers me, but even with a consumer oriented distro like Mint there is no real consistency but a mix of pre-installed apps based on GTK2, GTK3, QT or others, many not following common and/or current design guidelines and sometimes not even common sense. And of course different desktop environments. In that respect no doubt one reason of Mint's success is that you are doing quite a good job of providing a recognizable Mint "feel" across all offerings.

And again, this isn't criticism of you guys or even Linux as a whole. It's just an observation why the mass market is accepting Windows more easily than Linux. Personally I enjoy the freedom Linux is offering me or I wouldn't be here. But I'm also fully aware that I'm not the average PC user. Most of us here are not.
True. Consistency and aesthetics matter a lot. You also want to be able to offer that out of the box without the user needing to edit a bunch of text files or knowing CSS.

I can probably count on two hands the people who use Linux for their PC (and they're all in STEM fields anyway). However, I do know a greater number who switched from Windows to *nix-based Mac and stayed there. Apple knows how to do "pretty" quite well. The Apple Store was also a brilliant idea. Having somewhere you can go to for in-person help and warranty support greatly helps adoption. Of course Apple's got, what, a quarter trillion in cash?

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:54 pm

JosephM wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:26 pm
Windows may give some consistency in UI design on initial install. Though from what I've seen many vendors pack in their own tools that don't fit that. It also goes out the window the minute you start installing any applications you want to use. And who doesn't? Let's be real here. I can install Gimp, Libre office, Gedit, Blender, Houdini, etc. on Windows. Then I'm using every one of those same toolkits you mentioning as an issue ;)
Hey, I even have Linux installed on my Windows, so sure, but let's face it, LibreOffice on Linux is fine but on Windows it runs like ass. And I wouldn't call Gimp and Blender mass-market stuff, either. Most native Windows applications do look and handle the same though because they use the Microsoft provided APIs and libraries/common controls.
JosephM wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:31 pm
Ok, but if we're talking about what drives these supposed "noobs" back to windows, it really comes down to two main things. Lack of applications that they want or need and the initial setup process. If we throw out vendors who pre install and supply you with something fully working OOTB, that eliminates one big issue.
I really think the installation experience is overrated as a reason actually. The installers available these days make a Linux installation more painless than a Windows installation tbh. Also, as you correctly said, most users get their OS pre-installed.

Lack of applications or rather compatible applications (Microsoft Office) is a major factor, you are correct. Gaming availability/performance/driver support is another - gamers are enthusiasts who would install Linux in a heartbeat no matter any rough edges if only it allowed them to squeeze a few more FPS out of their favorite game.

Chromebooks in principle are the right idea though for an easy market to corner for a Linux-based OS. I'm always surprised to see all these low-end netbooks come pre-installed with Windows 10 with their little 32 GB eMMC probably not even enough to perform the semi-annually upgrade... A streamline Linux distro can provide a much better user experience on these.
Last edited by gm10 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:56 pm

@ Joseph M, .......
JosephM wrote:. If we're now on UI, it also isn't a fair comparison. You can throw out Android. Those are phone interfaces that aren't designed for the desktop
What if the smartphone UI can be replicated for the desktop/laptop.?
....... Just like a trackpad on a laptop can fully replace the mouse, a small touch-trackpad or track-touchscreen can fully replace the mouse and keyboard of a desktop/laptop, ie there is no need for the desktop monitor to be touchscreen = only the "trackpad" needs to be touchscreen.

It is a stupid UI to require a computer user to touch and interface with a touchscreen that is on a desktop/laptop monitor.
Last edited by michael louwe on Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:57 pm

Apple knows how to do "pretty" quite well. The Apple Store was also a brilliant idea. Having somewhere you can go to for in-person help and warranty support greatly helps adoption. Of course Apple's got, what, a quarter trillion in cash?
Apple also controls the entire stack. Including the hardware. Something no Linux distro can do. You don't run around installing MacOS on any old random machine. And before anyone points out the "Hackintosh" idea, I'm well aware. If you think any kind of "noob" does that, you're crazy :)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:13 pm

I really think the installation experience is overrated as a reason actually
Hugely dependent on hardware. The wrong hardware can lead people into many of the issues being complained about.
Most native Windows applications do look and handle the same though because they use the Microsoft provided APIs and libraries/common controls.
There is no way you're selling me on this argument. I'll admit I've not used Windows lately. Last time I did it was no where near consistent. Microsoft's own desktop apps had a mix of ribbon and non ribbon style UI's. Third party apps were all over the place. In addition to that, you had the weird fullscreen apps that you could get from the Windows store. In fact, as far as consistency, Microsoft is probably the worst.
What if the smartphone UI can be replicated for the desktop/laptop.?
I feel like you need to do a bit more research and reading on what most users think of that idea. What was one of the biggest blowbacks when Windows 8 came out? It was the phone/touch style UI. People hated it. On Linux, people rip any project they feel is going this route. You are talking about two very different use cases. A desktop has a keyboard and mouse. It's designed to be best used that way. A phone/tablet does not and requires a very different method of interaction to be productive. Sure touch screen support can be a useful bonus on an actual computer, but isn't the most efficient way of getting things done.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:43 pm

@ JosephM, .......
JosephM wrote:What was one of the biggest blowbacks when Windows 8 came out? It was the phone/touch style UI. People hated it.
What I had in mind is similar to the prototype ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaaCel-vgo (Asus Project Precog - A futuristic Notebook with Dual Screens - June 2018) and ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGShu0LzwQ (ASUS ZenBook Pro 2018 with ScreenPad- The Laptop with TWO Screens - June 2018)

Win 8/10's hybrid phone/desktop UI was half-baked and not well-thought out, eg requiring the computer user to touch the touchscreen of the desktop/laptop monitor and putting Metro Tiles meant for touchscreens on non-touchscreen desktop/laptop monitors.
....... What I had in mind is an Android-like phone UI for the desktop/laptop, not Win 8/10's hybrid phone/desktop UI.

Nevertheless, Win 8/10's hybrid UI works well for mobile touchscreen tablets with detachable keyboards, eg many businesses which have their staff going mobile or off-site for work purposes use Surface devices or iPads, eg doctors, nurses, architects, engineers, pilots, etc.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 pm

Let's face it, until we can convince Big Business and the Game Developers to support the *nix bandwagon (and I'm talking about the desktop market here, not servers) then you are going to be fighting a losing battle for acceptance of *nix by the unwashed masses. Big business often relies on proprietary software developed (not surprisingly) for the largest market share which is either M$ or Fruit. The Gaming community, you'd think would be a little more open to Open Source, however, the mighty $ rules there, too and most of their market it Joe Blogs who wants to play the latest game and tires of it after a couple of weeks. Those blokes, too, are unlikely to try the Open Source stuff because they use stuff at work (see previous sentences) and want a "consistent" UI without ever knowing that the world does not end just beyond their fence.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:20 am

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:43 pm
What I had in mind is similar to the prototype...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txaaCel-vgo
(Asus Project Precog - A futuristic Notebook with Dual Screens - June 2018) and ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGShu0LzwQ
(ASUS ZenBook Pro 2018 with ScreenPad- The Laptop with TWO Screens - June 2018)
...

"Project Precog" brought to mind...Nintendo 2DS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6hod6BijxE
Ie. by the end of the day - it's 'core' concept is...2 touch screens glued together: nope, i doubt it is the future 'as is'.
But yes - it certainly does challenge quite a few traditional / oldschool conventions though.

ZenBook Pro 2018 with ScreenPad: lol...now that's what i call definition of gimmick.
Wouldn't "touch" such a..."touch-screen-pad" not even with a ten feet pole -
what is this & why the heck would I open my wallet for such?
It's like a traditional laptop met a smartphone in the backyard, and had an illegitimate child...
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? It's...ASuS-perman! :lol:

...Either the keyboard is 'virtualized', ie. becomes 'touchscreen', or not -
same way traditional 'cellphones' had keys to press while modern 'smartphones' don't.

Surely you can feel the difference in design perception between this & the Precog that you posted?
Precog doesn't feel 'bastardized', trying to mix & match fundamentally different concepts (and occasionally, even contradictory).
It indeed does have a rather clear perception of the 'whole', and what it wants to achieve in the first place:
in it's world, everything is (presented as) a touchscreen - that's what it's core premise for tomorrow is.
If it will be successful / welcomed though, no idea...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:20 am

lsemmens wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 pm
Let's face it, until we can convince Big Business and the Game Developers to support the *nix bandwagon
If we manage to do that we face the next hurdle of eliminating the "only free/repos ever" fanatics from our ranks so they don't manage to chase the initial group of "evil capitalists" away.... oh happy days ahead...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:49 am

rambo919 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:20 am
lsemmens wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:51 pm
Let's face it, until we can convince Big Business and the Game Developers to support the *nix bandwagon
If we manage to do that we face the next hurdle of eliminating the "only free/repos ever" fanatics from our ranks so they don't manage to chase the initial group of "evil capitalists" away.... oh happy days ahead...
Complete and utter FUD.
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