What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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thx-1138
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:51 pm

rui no onna wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:18 pm
michael louwe wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:35 am
Computers should be like dumb-TV-boxes, and not jigsaw puzzles.
This.

My grandmother has never touched a desktop her entire life and she's scared to use one. I wouldn't give her a desktop or laptop (regardless of Windows, Mac or Linux) especially since I live 15,000 miles away. However, I felt comfortable enough giving her an iPad. She used that to view grandkids' (and great grandkids') pictures on Facebook and for FaceTime.
...Computers should be above it all...computers: aka, executing complex instructions & calculations on demand.
No, using it should not be equal to solving the...riddle of the Sphinx.
But if i wanted a dump-TV-box, then i'd buy a dump-TV-box instead (or maybe i'd use Windows instead)...

...exactly why an OS should by definition target the...grandmas & the aunties of this world, escapes me.
At the risk of sounding politically incorrect...there could always be a Grandma Linux distro for such cases,
with a variety of cookbooks pre-installed... :lol:
Portreve wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:59 pm
.....................
Several years ago, a very wise friend of mine made an observation: not everyone should be a computer owner.
I agreed with him then, and nothing has subsequently deterred me from that view.
.....................
Exactly. Same way not everyone should own a car - at least NOT without having actually taken driving lessons before.
Don't wanna read & learn the basics of the OS of your own choice?
Then off to...cooking recipes, Windows, and what not - nothing wrong with that, the world will still evolve just fine.

From a recent thread (yes, it's that period of the year...you know, late July, lots of summer heat etc...):
'why is there still an archaic command line in Linux?'
  • ...for you to learn, fix & automate your OS...
  • ...for you to make the exact same questions that i see in more than 2 decades of personal computing...
  • ...why is there still an archaic handle in order to open doors?
  • ...more importantly, why is there still an archaic steering wheel in cars?
...Siri: drive the car, open the door, download the recipe & bake me a pie (while I take selfies with my grandchildren).

So there you have it - there should also exist a petite-bourgeois OS i assume...
(just make sure it doesn't crash while it's...archaic steering wheel is set to OFF...)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ugly » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:46 pm

thx-1138 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:51 pm
Exactly. Same way not everyone should own a car - at least NOT without having actually taken driving lessons before.
Don't wanna read & learn the basics of the OS of your own choice?
Then off to...cooking recipes, Windows, and what not - nothing wrong with that, the world will still evolve just fine.
Part of the problem with that is that, if someone is coming from Windows, then they might have already taken the time to learn to use a computer. Learning again is hard. This has a couple reasons. One is that you have to try and unlearn some of the previous presumptions of how things should be when using a computer. And another is time. It's harder to go back and learn something that you've already spent time on learning. And on top of that, it can be a bit humbling if a person already thinks of themselves as something of a computer expert, then they jump over to Linux and suddenly are a total newbie again.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:04 pm

thx-1138 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:51 pm
...exactly why an OS should by definition target the...grandmas & the aunties of this world, escapes me
At the risk of sounding politically incorrect...there could always be a Grandma Linux distro for such cases,
with a variety of cookbooks pre-installed... :lol:
I reckon majority of computer users are non-techies. And there's actually Linux versions for them: Android and Chrome OS. :D

I know some folks who don't own personal computers. They just use work-provided computers and for personal use just rely on their smartphones.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:25 pm

We are decades past the time where desktop computers are just for people in the know and operating systems required a working knowledge of programming. Nor should they be. It's the job of the operating system to let you operate the system, not your job to operate the operating system. The OS is just a tool that the user ideally never even notices while using their applications of choice.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:38 pm

gm10 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:25 pm
We are decades past the time where desktop computers are just for people in the know and operating systems required a working knowledge of programming.
Nor should they be. It's the job of the operating system to let you operate the system, not your job to operate the operating system.
The OS is just a tool that the user ideally never even notices while using their applications of choice.
...gm10, sorry, but no. And the proof of it is that we are...here. "Ideally'? What does that even mean?
That's merely a semi-imaginary (but admittedly noble) goal for developers to be self-motivated.
Same way that ideally world leaders are supposedly striving for you know...global peace, end of hunger etc etc.

"Ideally", people would also at least consult the manuals first. And then they'd consult...Google.
Actually, 'ideally' they would generally try to...read (and not just manuals, but books).
Guess what: we are centuries after the dark periods that reading was meant only for those in the know,
but still the majority instead prefers to avoid doing so (taking selfies & complaining about that 'bloody computer' is probably easier...)

Realistically though...we are also decades past the time where cars were only driven by people in the know:
mr. Henry Ford made sure of such (for his own reasons).
But still, even a century later, you do have to LEARN at least the basics (and not only) before getting yourself behind the wheel.
I'm not aware yet of a car that is a "tool that you don't even notice it". Maybe Google will materialize it in the future.

Don't like the car metaphor? Get a washing machine instead (where no legal licence is involved / required).
Or whatever other machine / device - they almost all come with a manual of sorts, for a reason...
Granted though, i don't notice...electric bulbs - yes, that part of technology is certainly 110% absorbed into daily life.

So - until both AI & biotechnology becomes an actual thing in daily life...
widespread, commonly used and 'invisible' in the same way television or cellphones are -
until then, someone using a computer, no matter the OS, should start with RTFM.

PS:...and Windows' greatest deception & marketing trick ever if you will, was exactly that: it pretended,
almost promised actually, to come from the...future, where someone does NOT need to know next-to-nothing to operate such.
Exploiting people's lack of (will for) knowledge, combined with the premise of a better future...
was there ever a better recipe for success & domination? :wink:

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:52 pm

In the past the only reason I went back to Windoze was lack of hardware support for the computers that I had. Along with a few M$ Orifice "documents" that relied heavily on VBA and a huge Accsux database. It was mainly the hardware support, though. Now that the hardware has been sorted, the rest is just a matter of time re-doing the Office things. The Werd docs are all done (I've ditched most of the automation anyway), Access is in the process off re-creating all the data (I'm actually waay further down the data input road than I ever got), Excel spreadsheets are still to be done, but none of them are mission critical at the moment, and the only one that was did not require much in the way of massaging to make it work.

SO, in short Harware and Software compatibility are likely the biggest drawbacks.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by CaptainKirksChair » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:32 pm

No iTunes.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by vladtepes » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:39 am

Cool, this thread is exactly what I'd hoped it would be. Maybe the developers of Mint might get some inspiration from some of these comments over time, :)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:51 am

Schultz wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:03 pm
What sends noobs running back to Windows? I would assume when they find out that "Linux isn't Windows." My apologies if someone already stated this, didn't read through all the responses.
This. Or the fact that some piece of software they really need for some reason isn't available. I think too many people expect expect a free clone of windows when they install Linux. Guess what? It isn't. They are going to have to learn a few new things.

Cool, this thread is exactly what I'd hoped it would be. Maybe the developers of Mint might get some inspiration from some of these comments over time, :)
Not exactly sure what the devs are supposed to take from this. These discussions happen here all the time. None of this is really new information and most of it is actually outside the control of Mint.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:46 am

thx-1138 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:38 pm
gm10 wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:25 pm
We are decades past the time where desktop computers are just for people in the know and operating systems required a working knowledge of programming.
Nor should they be. It's the job of the operating system to let you operate the system, not your job to operate the operating system.
The OS is just a tool that the user ideally never even notices while using their applications of choice.
...gm10, sorry, but no. And the proof of it is that we are...here. "Ideally'? What does that even mean?
That's merely a semi-imaginary (but admittedly noble) goal for developers to be self-motivated.
Same way that ideally world leaders are supposedly striving for you know...global peace, end of hunger etc etc.

"Ideally", people would also at least consult the manuals first. And then they'd consult...Google.
Well, since you bring up Google: Why is Android such a successful Linux distro? Because it does exactly what I said it should. It nearly completely hides the underlying operating system from the user, just lets them use their apps. You can still install a terminal emulator and do Linux things, but you don't have to and the average user never will.

Obviously Ubuntu/Mint isn't at that point, but that does not mean it shouldn't be. Being so complicated it's only good for the elite few isn't a badge of honour. That's why these desktop distros exist in the first place. They try to make Linux easily accessible. Going with the claims above that some people just shouldn't use computers, the goal cannot be to change those people - people don't change - but to change the computers.

But hey, when Ubuntu/Mint isn't failing due to driver, update or other issues, it's doing that job just fine for the most part.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:02 am

@ thx-1138, .......
thx-1138 wrote:. Portreve wrote:
Several years ago, a very wise friend of mine made an observation: not everyone should be a computer owner.
I agreed with him then, and nothing has subsequently deterred me from that view.
.....................

Exactly. Same way not everyone should own a car - at least NOT without having actually taken driving lessons before.
Apples and oranges.

Driving cars can sometimes kill other people and cars on the road cannot be made death/injury-proof. In fact, new car models have to undergo crash tests with dummies. Hence, driving lessons are mandatory = no dummy-drivers to kill/injure other people. Similarly for flying planes.
....... Operating computers at home/office usually cannot kill/injure other people and computers can be locked-down or made dummy-proof, eg Win 10 S, Android, iOS and ChromeOS. Similarly for operating a TV, radio, BluRay player, smartphone, fridge, washing machine, microwave oven, etc. Hence computer lessons are not mandatory.

Windows and Android has been a success because it was also made for dummies or noobs or the lowest denominator.
Last edited by michael louwe on Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:22 am

@ vladtepes, .......
vladtepes wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:39 am
Cool, this thread is exactly what I'd hoped it would be. Maybe the developers of Mint might get some inspiration from some of these comments over time, :)
.
I doubt the Linux/Mint developers will listen. They haven't listened for decades. They are like race horses with blinders on. Hence, hundreds of different Linux distros fighting over a 2% world marketshare. Similarly, M$ isn't listening about Win 10 for the past 3 years.

Eg the default setting of Update Manager in LM 19 was changed to install ALL updates(including risky Linux kernel updates) when selected, which does not bode well for noobs/newbies. IOW, LM 19 has become even less dummy-proof.

From the beginning of Android, Google/Alphabet had wisely put in an Anti-Fragmentation Agreement for her Android OEM partners. The dumb EU has just slapped Google with a US$3-4 billion fine for anti-competitiveness over this Anti-Fragmentation Agreement.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:34 am

lsemmens wrote:Now that the hardware has been sorted, the rest is just a matter of time re-doing the Office things.

Mostly, only tech-geeks, who comprise less than 10% of computer users, would know how to do that, ie go out of their way to make non-mainstream hardware and software compatible with Linux.

In the world mass market for computers, the minority 10% does not rule, even though some of them are Linux developers; ie the majority rules, even if the majority are noobs or dummies.

Most app/program/game developers(= who are the minority) develop for the OS with a majority world marketshare, eg Windows and Android. That's where the money is.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by glocal » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:24 am

For over a decade I have been trying really hard to love Linux and drop Windows for good. I tried several distros on different toy-machines and I always go back to my workhorse Windows setup frustrated and disappointed. There are all sorts of hardware and environment hurdles, but thanks to the amazing community most of the times I can sort things out eventually and get a functioning setup, which however I am aware I don't really control or understand.

What I can't live without though is real-world compatibility and software availability. It is infuriating when people tell you that LibreOffice (the flagship open-source suite) is the same as, or better than MS Office. What counts is that when we all get a spreadsheet from Finance, I can be confident I see exactly what others see. Sometimes, believe me, it's not the same and there is no indication there is something wrong either. And no, I can't ask Finance to convert spreadsheets to whatever format. It's my problem. Similarly, if I use Zotero for bibliography references management, the methods for Writer and Word are incompatible, so other people can't use Word to edit my Writer text files. I could go on forever and this alone is a deal breaker.

Then there is the availability of software. NVivo is horrible, but whatever some enthusiasts say, RQDA on R is not the same. Using web services is a cope-out really, and why would I have to give someone else my data (which sometimes I am not allowed to do anyway). More frustratingly, I have been looking for years for an open-source or at least free PDF editor that would replace PDF-XChange, and I was shocked to find out there isn't one! Given that the PDF spec is published, I thought there would be lots of them. Sure, there are many very basic readers (which won't even do annotations or highlighting), and some people will even use LibreOffice, Gimp etc! Master PDF is the only one worth even talking about, but it's not really there and it's quite expensive if you want more than the basic features. Having to use WINE and web services as a workaround is embarrassing really.

These are just a few examples. Don't get me wrong. The community is fantastic and what people do with limited resources is admirable, but you can see why every two-three months I try again to make the move and return to Windows. In my view, if you must use the command line, read logs, edit scripts, fix misbehaving tray icons, or decipher errors referring to dependencies, missing keys and broken repository links, Linux will never become mainstream. And then, scarce resources must be diverted from maintaining yet another desktop, file manager or PDF reader to fewer, less sexy but essential projects, like a decent PDF editor. Anyway, that's my take.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:06 am

michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:02 am
..............................
....... Operating computers at home/office usually cannot kill/injure other people and computers can be locked-down or made dummy-proof, eg Win 10 S, Android, iOS and ChromeOS. Similarly for operating a TV, radio, BluRay player, smartphone, fridge, washing machine, microwave oven, etc. Hence computer lessons are not mandatory.

Windows and Android has been a success because it was also made for dummies or noobs or the lowest denominator.
Surprisingly revealing statements.

Make computers which are locked-down, dummy proof, de-value everyone's experience to the lowest denominator, in order to have...success.

PS:...I can understand a mega-corp like Google (or whoever mega-corp) promoting such, but someone here doing so,
and repeatedly as well in numerous threads...that certainly escapes me...Brave New World.
(are you using the wrong distro maybe? Maybe Win 7 and/or Android is still better for you?)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:36 am

@ thx-1138, .......
thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:06 am
michael louwe wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:02 am
..............................
....... Operating computers at home/office usually cannot kill/injure other people and computers can be locked-down or made dummy-proof, eg Win 10 S, Android, iOS and ChromeOS. Similarly for operating a TV, radio, BluRay player, smartphone, fridge, washing machine, microwave oven, etc. Hence computer lessons are not mandatory.

Windows and Android has been a success because it was also made for dummies or noobs or the lowest denominator.
Surprisingly revealing statements.

Make computers which are locked-down, dummy proof, de-value everyone's experience to the lowest denominator, in order to have...success.

PS:...I can understand a mega-corp like Google (or whoever) promoting such, but someone here doing so,
and repeatedly as well in numerous threads...that certainly escapes me...Brave New World.
(are you using the wrong distro maybe? Maybe Win 7 and/or Android is still better for you?)
My comment does not mean that tech-geeks or the higher denominator are locked-out from successful OS like Win 10, Android and ChromeOS(= Education market), ie they can be unlocked for advanced users, eg Win 10 S can be "unlocked" or converted to Win 10 Pro for free, Android can be side-loaded with 3rd-party apps or flashed with a Custom ROM(eg LineageOS), ChromeOS can be dual-booted with Linux, etc.

When upstream Linux distros like Arch Linux and Debian Unstable can only be used by tech-geeks, that's truly "locking out" a big segment of non-techy computer users, like those nose-uppities who belong to exclusive rich private clubs.

Computers are a mass-market consumer product. If an OS wants to reach the mass-market, it has to be developed for the mass-market, who happens to be mostly noobs or non-techies.
....... At the moment, most Linux distros seem to only want to reach a niche small market of mostly techies, eg so many different Linux distros "invented"/founded/forked by techy-developers. Can't really blame the Linux developers since most of them lack financial and/or manpower resources to be as good as M$-Windows or Google-Android.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 am

thx-1138 wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:06 am
Surprisingly revealing statements.<snip>
The problem is you are confusing dumbed down with completely dumbed down. The one has you on speed cruise unless you want/need more control and the other only allows speed cruise. Most people don't want to keep complete control of every little nut and bolt 24/7 because it's at worst an utter waste of time or at best extremely inefficient. Most people (who are generally NOT the traditional "hardcore" type users) just want things to work and not be an extra needless burden, most tech oriented people want exactly the same but with the ability for more control as needed under the surface or at least with a good balance between. The best OS for anyone is the OS that is as invisible as possible and when something extra needs to be done allows you to do it effortlessly.... design matters, problem is most linux people with any actual power are the ones that don't care about it because to them personally it does not matter.... Microsoft and Macintosh on the other hand put a LOT of effort into design because they know that matters just as much as what the design powers... problem is now the balance has shifted and the designers have more power than the coders where the linux the coders have more power than the designers.

The big problem is the utterly foolish but utterly common disconnect between personal preference and general preference, which coupled with an ideological bent towards "teaching the unwashed masses the gospel of software freedom" of whatever degree cements a paradigm of coders coding for other coders because they cannot fathom any users needing anything more than they themselves and by extension the rest of their tech bubble need. You see the same behavior with "tortured artists" responsible for most of today's "modern art".... anyone that does not like it is a "philistine" and automatically wrong. The common man wants what the common man wants not what some eccentric in a basement (which to him is what the common linux user is) somewhere feels like giving him.... perception matters.

I could also make an argument that many people themselves these days are dumbed down but that would get mean.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:46 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 am
The big problem is the utterly foolish but utterly common disconnect between personal preference and general preference, which coupled with an ideological bent towards "teaching the unwashed masses the gospel of software freedom" of whatever degree cements a paradigm of coders coding for other coders because they cannot fathom any users needing anything more than they themselves and by extension the rest of their tech bubble need. You see the same behavior with "tortured artists" responsible for most of today's "modern art".... anyone that does not like it is a "philistine" and automatically wrong. The common man wants what the common man wants not what some eccentric in a basement (which to him is what the common linux user is) somewhere feels like giving him.... perception matters.
Gnome 3 came to mind for some reason when I read that.
I could also make an argument that many people themselves these days are dumbed down but that would get mean.
It wouldn't be mean unless you meant to be mean. I'm convinced that the whole of modern civilisation is based on stupidity.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:01 am

Oh hell no, gnome 3 is the dumbest of dumbed down... just trying to use it puts me in an irritated state.

I have actually been trying to get a touch friendly solution up and running for my parents and am considering either KDE or both Gnome for usual use and XFCE for when actual work needs to be done (or I need to use their 2-in-1's myself for whatever reason). My parents being PC tech savages.... my mom is funnily enough much better than my dad.

LM with Cinnamon is getting close to the ideal (for desktop PC use anyway) but rome gets built longer when all you have is architects arguing with each other more than actual building....

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:26 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:01 am
My parents being PC tech savages.... my mom is funnily enough much better than my dad.
Why is that funny?
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