What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 am

Windows updates are painless as well when they work. Same as on Linux, it's all good until it isn't.

Although I also agree that the way the semi-annual system upgrades on Windows 10 are handled is highly annoying. In particular on non-standard installs. My actual C drive is fairly small, I have e.g. all the programs and program data in other locations. Windows 10 upgrades require it to be in C though, no matter how correctly I have it all set up in the registry and such just like I did since Windows NT days basically. So I ended up sym-linking everything into C instead. That lets the upgrade go through but all symlinks get reset. So I had a to write a number of scripts to run after Win10 upgrades to re-create the whole she-bang. Really?

But it's still a fringe case. For the average user neither Windows updates nor Windows upgrades require any effort, they might just leave you half a day without access to your system, which is of course ridiculous.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am

gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:24 am
Windows updates are painless as well when they work. Same as on Linux, it's all good until it isn't.

But it's still a fringe case. For the average user neither Windows updates nor Windows upgrades require any effort, they might just leave you half a day without access to your system, which is of course ridiculous.
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful. But once more, Winders is what people know, and they accept that they must wait for sometimes hours to get an update downloaded.

We in the Linux community need to better at outreach, teaching, and tolerance for the newbies. We still come off as too elitist and not tolerant of the silly questions that have been asked time and time again. Perhaps a better way would be to explain that WE (in the Linux community) don't install spyware on your system like Microsoft does with Winders 10. We don't track everything you do, and above all we don't monetize you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful. But once more, Winders is what people know, and they accept that they must wait for sometimes hours to get an update downloaded.

We in the Linux community need to better at outreach, teaching, and tolerance for the newbies. We still come off as too elitist and not tolerant of the silly questions that have been asked time and time again. Perhaps a better way would be to explain that WE (in the Linux community) don't install spyware on your system like Microsoft does with Winders 10. We don't track everything you do, and above all we don't monetize you.
Lol, first thing I do is disable automatic updates (granted, I have Pro licenses) and use wsusoffline to update at my convenience. :P

That said, the update situation and tracking in Windows 10 is ridiculous and the reason I'm switching to Linux.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am

rui no onna wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:57 am
Lol, first thing I do is disable automatic updates (granted, I have Pro licenses) and use wsusoffline to update at my convenience. :P
Most certainly. And upgrades get deferred. Nevertheless that one of them still black-screened even months later. Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.

It's not like there aren't plenty Linux updates that can prevent your system from booting, but it's usually easier to recover from them because the whole process isn't as opaque as it is on Windows.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:47 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:49 am
Yeah NINE HOURS!, NINE HOURS! for one stinking update. Ridiculous. I must say that updating Mint has spoiled me for Microsoft updates. It just should not be that painful.
Those agonizingly slow updates are a fading memory for me, but strewth! Don't think mine ever took THAT long, with Win7 Ultimate. :shock: With Mint, we are spoilt in comparison, both for updates & the speed and ease with which we can install software.
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am
Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.
That is outrageous. I don't look at Windows forums as a rule, so was unaware of that, however have heard of updates wrecking many systems in the past.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:00 pm

BG405 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:47 pm
gm10 wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:14 am
Luckily I was prepared for that, by that time the reason had been researched even if MS never bothered to fix it. Poor fools on home licenses are out of luck though.
That is outrageous. I don't look at Windows forums as a rule, so was unaware of that, however have heard of updates wrecking many systems in the past.
Oh I don't hang out on Windows forums, either, but I do defer the semi-annual upgrades for a few months and before applying them will search for known issues. Just a safe thing to do with big system upgrades.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am

The few times I have ventured into the M$ forums I have had nothing but disgust for the idiocy with smiles coming from the official "fixers".... actual knowledge of problems beyond a two-week training course (if even that much) must be severely lacking with those people.

The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.

These are some of the great ways they win good favour.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pierre » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:20 am

the Modern Linux System does need some regular updates to be installed,
as does the Modern Windows System, but when either of those updates cause a crash,
then it's both systems, that can be a right PiTA to fix up.

there is just as much Bad Advice, when searching for that upgrade issue,
that is that PiTA on both systems.

coz I've seen the worst of both systems, & it's the Windows System that can be the most frustrating to fix up.
:o
- - last year, I'd had to hack the Windows Registry, on one machine,, just to get an older Printer to install on win-10.
that shouldn't be necessary, but it was,, as the Printer Driver was no longer 'verified'.

then again, on another machine, the Sound Card wasn't working on a New Linux Installation,
& that took a bit of effort to fix up, as well.
:)
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Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:04 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am
The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.
That may be the case on Windows 10 (I dunno, I haven't really used it). On Windows 7 Pro and older, you can. You can even completely disable automatic updates via menu, no need for registry hacks (menu options are: automatic download and install, download but don't install, check but don't download or install, disabled). Alas, 7 is fast approaching EOL.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:20 am

rui no onna wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:04 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 am
The problem with deferring updates, it only defers installing them NOT downloading them. Add that you cannot set ethernet connections to metered even though not everyone on a ethernet connection has an uncapped/unlimited/whatever connection and poof data cap suddenly gone mid-month.
That may be the case on Windows 10 (I dunno, I haven't really used it). On Windows 7 Pro and older, you can. You can even completely disable automatic updates via menu, no need for registry hacks (menu options are: automatic download and install, download but don't install, check but don't download or install, disabled). Alas, 7 is fast approaching EOL.
It's not the case at least on my Win10 Pro, either, it does not download anything on its own. It's true the Home edition cannot prevent automatic updates though.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:49 am

I have not directly experienced this myself in a while tbh and the bulk of my win10 experience is from PC's at work so it might have been patched out at some point.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by winxpwasgreat » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 pm

Great thread.

Noobs go back to Windows because linux just doesn't deliver in the most basic aspects an OS should do.

Plug and play is a big one.. drivers another one.. crappy amateurish software another one.. I could go on.

What pisses me off is the fact 15 years ago those were still the reasons why noobs would stay away from linux, which makes me think not enough time and resources have been allocated to fix those aspects.
If they were, linux today would be the king of operative systems, whereas at the current state it is only being used by either nerds or ex windows users who couldn't put up with all the rubbish of anything happened after winxp.

So my advice for whoever is a linux developer and reads this post, is to start from the user experience of a noob, and then build the technology on top of it. Just assume the noob is a normal person (not technologically impaired, but by all means not keen on wasting time on trivial things such as installing a new printer or new speakers) used to the versatility of winxp. There's an incredible amount of people still using that OS, especially in China. If you build something "like xp, but slightly better", that's basically how to become the #1 OS in the world. I'd be happy to pay in the low xxx $s a year for such OS if it existed, and similarly to me many others would.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:00 am

winxpwasgreat wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 pm
Great thread.

Noobs go back to Windows because linux just doesn't deliver in the most basic aspects an OS should do.

Plug and play is a big one.. drivers another one.. crappy amateurish software another one.. I could go on.

What pisses me off is the fact 15 years ago those were still the reasons why noobs would stay away from linux, which makes me think not enough time and resources have been allocated to fix those aspects.
If they were, linux today would be the king of operative systems, whereas at the current state it is only being used by either nerds or ex windows users who couldn't put up with all the rubbish of anything happened after winxp.

So my advice for whoever is a linux developer and reads this post, is to start from the user experience of a noob, and then build the technology on top of it. Just assume the noob is a normal person (not technologically impaired, but by all means not keen on wasting time on trivial things such as installing a new printer or new speakers) used to the versatility of winxp. There's an incredible amount of people still using that OS, especially in China. If you build something "like xp, but slightly better", that's basically how to become the #1 OS in the world. I'd be happy to pay in the low xxx $s a year for such OS if it existed, and similarly to me many others would.
So true, and so accurate. Think what makes a newbie lose his mind, and then figure out how to prevent that while still allowing those power users to have joy.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:03 pm

winxpwasgreat wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:34 pm
Great thread.

Noobs go back to Windows because linux just doesn't deliver in the most basic aspects an OS should do.
I call this absolute BS! An OS is only there to allow you to access the hardware on your computer, and Linux does this mostly seamlessly and stably

Plug and play is a big one.. drivers another one..
Occasionally this is the case, given the immense variety of hardware out there, and the fact that the manufacturers do not support some operating systems, you cannot blame the OS for that
crappy amateurish software another one.. I could go on.
Crappy software has been around since Adam was a baby - and much of it was/is part of the Other OS - viruses/scam/spyware anyone?

What pisses me off is the fact 15 years ago those were still the reasons why noobs would stay away from linux, which makes me think not enough time and resources have been allocated to fix those aspects.
What are YOU doing to fix this? Linux is created, "staffed" by volunteers. If something needs fixing, then a volunteer must fix it.
If they were, linux today would be the king of operative systems, whereas at the current state it is only being used by either nerds or ex windows users who couldn't put up with all the rubbish of anything happened after winxp.
Again, I call BS - The ONLY reason Microsoft is the king of OS's is that the M$ model licensed it to be installed on many business machines at half the price of the, then, Apple competitor which was/and still is a closed system.

So my advice for whoever is a linux developer and reads this post, is to start from the user experience of a noob, and then build the technology on top of it. Just assume the noob is a normal person (not technologically impaired, but by all means not keen on wasting time on trivial things such as installing a new printer or new speakers) used to the versatility of winxp. There's an incredible amount of people still using that OS, especially in China. If you build something "like xp, but slightly better", that's basically how to become the #1 OS in the world. I'd be happy to pay in the low xxx $s a year for such OS if it existed, and similarly to me many others would.
I'll state the OBVIOUS - LINUX IS NOT Windows! XP was a reasonably good OS but it was not as stable or nearly as secure as Linux. Win7 was better than XP at security,but still not as secure as Linux. It was way more stable than XP but still suffered from BSODs. I actually liked W10 but, eventually the wheels fell off that too.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:14 am

lsemmens wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:03 pm
XP was a reasonably good OS but it was not as stable or nearly as secure as Linux. Win7 was better than XP at security,but still not as secure as Linux. It was way more stable than XP but still suffered from BSODs.
Agreed 100%. I ran xp for years & it did suffer fairly frequent BSODs. 7 less so, but it struggled on my hardware & it was a chore dealing with all the maintenance. Sluggish performance was a serious issue.

The average uptime on the server is well over a month (longest so far is around 125 days) & the netbook around 2 weeks with Mint. Usual reason for reboot is system update. Try that with any currently supported desktop version of Windows!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Marie SWE » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm

Hi :D
As a newbie on Linux with 3 active months of experience(Member here since March), this is my reflection.
First bit of my background with computers.. I am an advanced user of M$ since 1988, windows versions 3.1 up to windows7 and windows server 2000 up to 2008R2. (everything after win7 is crap in my opinion)
At the age of 14, I started with an Commodore PC10II with MS-Dos and some dos programs. When I was 15, I start using basic to program a little bit, but I gave up programming after a couple of years. 1992 I started to use local network at home with 4 computers with internet access and build my own computers, and I have had networks with multiple computers ever since.
After the millennium, I never had to use the command prompt when installing windows(OEM and Retail) with 3rd party drivers/manufacturer's own drivers. It was/is just click setup or install drivers and it did it's job. Or if i didn't want to use 3rd party installer then i open the device manager, right click on the unidentified device and click update driver and pointed to a folder.. Done. To setup a home/small business network is easy in windows to, no command prompt or editing files is necessary(even that it's possible to do if you really really want to. but nothing that has to be done that way). everything is doable within windows and with graphical interface.

So my first installation of Linux Mint Mate 18.3 was a surprise and flashback to the mid 90's. :mrgreen: I really must use the terminal to install things and to modify files in text editors.. When my friend told me how Linux works and to install things, I really thought he was kidding, It took several minutes before I realized he really was serious. :shock:

Windows7 has EOL in 2020 so I have no choice but to learn Linux.... Luckily, I am stubborn of me, so I don't give up even that I feel like giving up every time when my Linux computer and I don't have the same opinion. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

But when things are so unnecessarily complicated, I think that is the reason that many are running back to windows and iOS

Now I have Mint xfce 18.3 when Mate caused high cpu temp, but i have a lot of small problems left.
But yes, I'm here to stay with Linux, but it takes so long time to learn the 90s hack again. and all total different commands :?

Edit:
I know that Linux is run on a voluntary level, but if everyone could collaborate and stopped competing between it's various of distributions, then I think Linux would have a larger share of the market, if everyone could pulling in the same direction.
To compete creates ideas and draw development forward,Yes...., but to compete too much can also slow down the progression

//Marie
Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes a little longer to complete...
It is like it is, because you do what you do, if you hadn't done as you did, it hadn't been as it is. ;)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:04 pm

To a point, Marie, you are right. A lot of the stuff done on the command line in Linux can be accomplished using the GUI, the difference being, the support network finds it quicker, easier and more accurate to say, "Open a terminal and type this" than, "Go to the Menu, Look in Accessories, Find the ........"

I am also a (relatively) recent permanent convert to Linux only because I had stuff that was so locked into M$ product that it took me time to disencumber myself. FWIW I did like W10 initially, but, "Patch Tuesday" took care of that! (I know, that's been around for centuries, - I got sick of having to re-set everything after it "updated")
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:14 am

lsemmens wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:03 pm
Again, I call BS - The ONLY reason Microsoft is the king of OS's is that the M$ model licensed it to be installed on many business machines at half the price of the, then, Apple competitor which was/and still is a closed system.
A sheer fallacy, yes a large part is OEM's basically having been "captured" by M$ but it's never been the "only" reason. If even after hearing plenty of people explain why they continually went back to Windows from what at the time was considered the best available distro's you still think that then you have to be using ideological logic instead of thinking critically. Many people stick with Windows because GASP.... they simply do not prefer even the best experience Linux can give them.
lsemmens wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:03 pm
I'll state the OBVIOUS - LINUX IS NOT Windows! XP was a reasonably good OS but it was not as stable or nearly as secure as Linux. Win7 was better than XP at security,but still not as secure as Linux. It was way more stable than XP but still suffered from BSODs. I actually liked W10 but, eventually the wheels fell off that too.
Not everyone is prepared to choose an OS simply for those plus points, many are fine with a slightly buggy experience as long as their main personal objectives are met.... not everyone has even vaguely your POV on this. People don't want (even though that's how some express it for lack of better vocabulary) a "free windows", people at large want a OS that provides the automation that windows provides combined with the ability to run the apps THEY want to run and generally are rather allergic to anything that looks like command line.

I don't put this so strongly to be a jerk, I do it because anything other than plain talking about this type of thing anywhere on the internet simply attracts righteous dismissive condescension (with a strong tint of "you must either be an idiot or have never tried X distro properly) combined with the strange assumption that everyone should be able to service their car/PC even though historically that type of thing has NEVER happened any time when some complicated tool actually DID grow into dominance. The ONLY way to keep Linux to people that can all improve it is to keep it small, it's literally impossible to have it grow and stay the same that way if you add the bulk of humanity. Having ideals are fine but reality tends to trump them. What's next? Requiring competency tests and issuing licenses? That doesn't even really work for cars.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:23 am

lsemmens wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:04 pm
To a point, Marie, you are right. A lot of the stuff done on the command line in Linux can be accomplished using the GUI, the difference being, the support network finds it quicker, easier and more accurate to say, "Open a terminal and type this" than, "Go to the Menu, Look in Accessories, Find the ........"

I am also a (relatively) recent permanent convert to Linux only because I had stuff that was so locked into M$ product that it took me time to disencumber myself. FWIW I did like W10 initially, but, "Patch Tuesday" took care of that! (I know, that's been around for centuries, - I got sick of having to re-set everything after it "updated")
That is true but automatically using it as an excuse is half of why many "noobs" never even consider Linux, the OS and almost all it's help-structures are focused on making it easier for the helpers/devs than the helped/users.... it's institutionalized reverse marketing. That said though M$ due to their dominance has basically abandoned one of the things that got them to where they are.... every time I end up in a M$ official forum due to a search engine result the replies of the staff make me feel like my IQ is dropping just by reading them.... useless would be a compliment.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:32 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:23 am
every time I end up in a M$ official forum due to a search engine result the replies of the staff make me feel like my IQ is dropping just by reading them.... useless would be a compliment.
Their responses are basically "please run the troubleshooting wizard, if that cannot help you, nobody can. closing your request". Funny stuff. The support hotline is better from what I hear.

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