What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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Moem
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:43 am

Marie SWE wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm
my first installation of Linux Mint Mate 18.3 was a surprise and flashback to the mid 90's. :mrgreen: I really must use the terminal to install things and to modify files in text editors.. When my friend told me how Linux works and to install things, I really thought he was kidding, It took several minutes before I realized he really was serious. :shock:
I would always point newcomers to the software manager instead. Many, many things can be installed from there with one click. I wonder whether you had specific, exotic problems that cannot be solved with the GUI or your friend just considered the terminal a faster route to help you.
For giving support, the terminal is often faster because it's more universal. But that doesn't mean that these things must always be done in the terminal by the user themselves.

And still, your friend did not manage to send you running back to Windows... good for you! :mrgreen:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Hoser Rob » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:30 am

Hardware compatibility and the effort required for those newbies used to WIndows to solve it, if there IS a solution. I simply cannot believe the level of denial with this issue.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:36 am

Hoser Rob wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:30 am
Hardware compatibility and the effort required for those newbies used to WIndows to solve it, if there IS a solution. I simply cannot believe the level of denial with this issue.
Don't count me in the statistics: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=274522&start=80#p1506192
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:58 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:23 am

That is true but automatically using it as an excuse is half of why many "noobs" never even consider Linux, the OS and almost all it's help-structures are focused on making it easier for the helpers/devs than the helped/users.... it's institutionalized reverse marketing.
That is a cop out. Time was when even M$ required the DOS prompt. Noobies may well be scared of terminal, but, given the fact that they are using Linux anyway means that they are not afraid to try something different. Very rapidly they also learn that those who are helping them actually know their stuff, and seriously want to make a difference.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:15 am

With win98 that could be considered true, however each successive version deprecated as many cli requirements as possible.... and even in win98 most never touched the cli except for mostly universal bat scripts compiled by others. In fact M$ seemed to get rather allergic at one point to allowing normal users anywhere near a cli only recently really giving much attention to it again. And you cannot directly compare current Linux to back then's win98 because at that point Linux was mostly useless to the common man.

Also you seem to live in a bubble where you are in contact with individuals that want to learn and eventually tend to get comfortable enough in cli.... Actually it's a minority of people that are like that and most actually put their toes in the water and leave or just don't bother in the first place.... you don't know about the actual majority because you simply don't have contact with them. Not every end user is a Admin. Not every Admin knows more than how to install stuff and have it work automatically. Not everyone that drives a car should when the standards for driving a car is maintaining it, same for PC's.... neither unrealistically high standard will ever occur naturally.

Maybe you live in a area where people are generally technologically sophisticated... also not the norm. Most people I have met outside of tech forums/chatrooms will simply look at you blankly (or with sheer terror in some cases) if you insist they type things to get something done if for no other reason that they associate it with "old computers" or "hacking". A fair number of people I have had contact with on IRC have been similarly befuddled but at least they were actually the type to try with maybe half of them probably giving up at some point. If something is not automated they either get someone else to do it or just ignore it. Obviously not an ideal situation but it is what it is.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Marie SWE » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:27 am

Moem wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:43 am
Marie SWE wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:47 pm
my first installation of Linux Mint Mate 18.3 was a surprise and flashback to the mid 90's. :mrgreen: I really must use the terminal to install things and to modify files in text editors.. When my friend told me how Linux works and to install things, I really thought he was kidding, It took several minutes before I realized he really was serious. :shock:
I would always point newcomers to the software manager instead. Many, many things can be installed from there with one click. I wonder whether you had specific, exotic problems that cannot be solved with the GUI or your friend just considered the terminal a faster route to help you.
For giving support, the terminal is often faster because it's more universal. But that doesn't mean that these things must always be done in the terminal by the user themselves.

And still, your friend did not manage to send you running back to Windows... good for you! :mrgreen:
No, I'm too stubborn to give up and run back to windows. :mrgreen: sometimes too stubborn for my own good. :roll: :oops: :lol:
I still have windows on all computers and my two servers, I have dual boot on one laptop and one desktop which I have to learn Linux with.

Yes my problems so far have been drivers, the network and high cpu temp.
My threads except the one with firewalls.
CPU viewtopic.php?f=49&t=275132
Network viewtopic.php?f=157&t=264932
And I have some threads in the Swedish mint forums.

Common programs and apps I don't intend to bring up as a problems. But I have to learn to install from tarballs, and that soon. :?
Nothing is impossible, the impossible just takes a little longer to complete...
It is like it is, because you do what you do, if you hadn't done as you did, it hadn't been as it is. ;)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:15 am
With win98 that could be considered true, however each successive version deprecated as many cli requirements as possible.... and even in win98 most never touched the cli except for mostly universal bat scripts compiled by others. In fact M$ seemed to get rather allergic at one point to allowing normal users anywhere near a cli only recently really giving much attention to it again. And you cannot directly compare current Linux to back then's win98 because at that point Linux was mostly useless to the common man.

Also you seem to live in a bubble where you are in contact with individuals that want to learn and eventually tend to get comfortable enough in cli.... Actually it's a minority of people that are like that and most actually put their toes in the water and leave or just don't bother in the first place.... you don't know about the actual majority because you simply don't have contact with them. Not every end user is a Admin. Not every Admin knows more than how to install stuff and have it work automatically. Not everyone that drives a car should when the standards for driving a car is maintaining it, same for PC's.... neither unrealistically high standard will ever occur naturally.

Maybe you live in a area where people are generally technologically sophisticated... also not the norm. Most people I have met outside of tech forums/chatrooms will simply look at you blankly (or with sheer terror in some cases) if you insist they type things to get something done if for no other reason that they associate it with "old computers" or "hacking". A fair number of people I have had contact with on IRC have been similarly befuddled but at least they were actually the type to try with maybe half of them probably giving up at some point. If something is not automated they either get someone else to do it or just ignore it. Obviously not an ideal situation but it is what it is.
Yep. Most don’t care and just want it to work.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:22 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 am
Most don’t care and just want it to work.
This .. and the fact that a significant proportion of these people will simply go out and buy a new computer when it stops working, rather than fix it or actually reinstall the OS.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:32 pm

BG405 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:22 pm
This .. and the fact that a significant proportion of these people will simply go out and buy a new computer when it stops working, rather than fix it or actually reinstall the OS.
This is true. Chances are most people will bring the computer to a friend (likely someone only knowledgeable with Windows). If the friend can't fix it, then it's off to buy a new computer. Either that or they just don't replace their PC altogether opting to use work-supplied computers when needed and their smartphone for everything else.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:10 pm

BG405 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:22 pm
MurphCID wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:34 am
Most don’t care and just want it to work.
This .. and the fact that a significant proportion of these people will simply go out and buy a new computer when it stops working, rather than fix it or actually reinstall the OS.
That is so very true.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:12 pm

rui no onna wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:32 pm
BG405 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:22 pm
This .. and the fact that a significant proportion of these people will simply go out and buy a new computer when it stops working, rather than fix it or actually reinstall the OS.
This is true. Chances are most people will bring the computer to a friend (likely someone only knowledgeable with Windows). If the friend can't fix it, then it's off to buy a new computer. Either that or they just don't replace their PC altogether opting to use work-supplied computers when needed and their smartphone for everything else.
And this is very accurate as well. My wife is an example of this, except that I do the tech support at home, and I make sure that her system(s) are up to date and running.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:03 pm

Must be nice to have the cashflow that makes "just buy another" affordable.... I think half of why I self-taught myself since being a child because there was never money to to "just buy"....

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:56 pm

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Must be nice to have the cashflow that makes "just buy another" affordable.... I think half of why I self-taught myself since being a child because there was never money to to "just buy"....
In all fairness, severe software/malware issues are often resolved with format+reinstall and I expect the Windows techie friend/acquaintance would know to try that first. Alas, unless one is willing to switch OSes, a reinstall won't fix the CPU or GPU being too slow to run modern Windows or software (likely games).

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:21 pm

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Must be nice to have the cashflow that makes "just buy another" affordable.... I think half of why I self-taught myself since being a child because there was never money to to "just buy"....
Exactly, but at least I end up with some of the cast-offs so have ended up with some quite decent hardware which I can not afford to buy, so I suppose that softens the edge a bit. Stil stoopid, though.
rui no onna wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:56 pm
In all fairness, severe software/malware issues are often resolved with format+reinstall and I expect the Windows techie friend/acquaintance would know to try that first.
I would expect any decent techie to try that last, after exhausting reasonable attempts to restore the system & backing up as much as possible; not the "scorched earth" policy of many computer outfits.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rui no onna » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:33 pm

BG405 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:21 pm
rui no onna wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:56 pm
In all fairness, severe software/malware issues are often resolved with format+reinstall and I expect the Windows techie friend/acquaintance would know to try that first.
I would expect any decent techie to try that last, after exhausting reasonable attempts to restore the system & backing up as much as possible; not the "scorched earth" policy of many computer outfits.
I meant try it first (as a last resort after other attempts to fix/cleanup have failed) before completely replacing the computer. Of course, data backup is a must.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:10 pm

rui no onna wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:33 pm
I meant try it first (as a last resort after other attempts to fix/cleanup have failed) before completely replacing the computer.
Thanks for that clarification; my observations, unfortunately, have been mostly contradictory to this. :cry:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:45 am

rambo919 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:03 pm
Must be nice to have the cashflow that makes "just buy another" affordable.... I think half of why I self-taught myself since being a child because there was never money to to "just buy"....
With Best Buy having $399 laptops with reasonable specs, that is what most people look at, rather than the question of: "how can I extend the life of this device and make it better?"

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Isaac_4 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:15 am

Before I get to my reasons, I got to say that I came to Linux to escape Windows 10, no joke. An update for Windows 10 came out and killed some of my programs afterwards. They were unable to launch. I'm awaiting the update that will fix the issue...

Back to the question, I would say unfamiliarity. It does not feel like Windows, and it doesn't have their files on it. (Unless they learn how to navigate to their drives through the browser in Linux.)

Games? Well, before a week ago I would have agreed, but Steam is making some great progress at porting their library over to Linux as well. I think this issue may be a thing of the past real soon.

Perhaps there's something I'm missing? Fill me in on a point that I could be missing. (Or am I too far gone to think like my past Windows fan self? lol)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:41 am

This .. and the fact that a significant proportion of these people will simply go out and buy a new computer when it stops working, rather than fix it or actually reinstall the OS.
One of the most sane things said in this thread. Most people don't care what OS they are running. They also have zero desire to install or reinstall an OS. That means any OS. Including windows. Most people are used to buying a computer that is already set up and working and just using it. I've installed Mint for other people who know nothing about installing OS's. I set them up and give them back. Guess what? They never even have to touch the terminal.

This same argument holds when it comes to customizing. Most people I know run Windows or Chromebooks. They buy them and use them the way they come. The full extent of what they do to customize is change the wallpaper. I've shown people I've set Mint up for how to change things. They just don't.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:46 am

JosephM wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:41 am
This same argument holds when it comes to customizing. Most people I know run Windows or Chromebooks. They buy them and use them the way they come. The full extent of what they do to customize is change the wallpaper. I've shown people I've set Mint up for how to change things. They just don't.
Yes, and that's why sensible defaults are important. But the typical Linux beginner is adventurous and loves to tweak and tinker.... :wink:
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