What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:49 am

Pjotr wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:46 am
But the typical Linux beginner is adventurous and loves to tweak and tinker.... :wink:
That's true for us here, not the people getting it pre-installed. Most people just want to use their computer productively, not tinker with the settings.

That's why I had previously suggested to guide the user through it right from the welcome screen like some distributions do.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 pm

heres a great case in point...take a person on his very first post telling you he is new to linux...doesnt seem to know about the software manager (he calls it a program list) as he does what all windows users do when looking for a program, he googles it looking for something like "downloads.com" from cnet...he finds "github" listing his program...he then proceeds to blindly download it, like most windows users do only to find its a tr-gz and hasnt a clue what to do with that...so he finds the LM forums community and asks what the heck to do with this...he just wants this program to work so he can road test his new Mint OS in a way he knows and evaluates it...in this case, through music...now what does he get in answer to his first post i ask ?...well just read the link i provided...it speaks for itself but to a green newbie it sounds like ancient coine greek or ancient latin to them the first two posts dont even tell him how to do it, just a dont even try this if your new, use the "APP STORE"...ok he doesnt know about software manager, ("program list" to the OP), and now we call it an app store to a total newbie...wonder how long he looked for that in his menu...he should be told WHY a newbie shouldnt be trying to use tarballs in the first place...another post takes the newbie to the "dreaded terminal" although mentioning the software repository and synaptic really? synaptic with a newbie?, where, of course, his program does reside (and that is even newer than the tarball he downloaded from github)...i have 2 expressions i drum into my teenage students in my linux "class" i hold in their youth center...the first is "M.I.S.S and the second is K.I.S.S...translation ?..."Make It Simple Stupid", and the second like that is, "Keep It Simple Stupid", which of course gets lots of laughs from the kids...there is plenty of time later on to teach terminal commands, extracting tarballs, etc but lets all try to be very basic at first with total newbies...it may just stop a few from "running back to windows"...(the question by the way from the newbie was just how do i install "audacity")...does it really need to be this complicated to get a quick, simple answer for a common application known to most all of us ?...DAMIEN

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by yertchuk » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:05 pm

Agree 100% Damien!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Portreve » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:19 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 pm
heres a great case in point...
I think you bring up an excellent point: what assumptions are being unwittingly made by any particular distro about their demographic?

There ought to be something which comes up when booting from the live image which nicely but efficiently prompts the user for experience level and then contains a thorough background explanation of things so she or he knows everything they actually need to prior to installation. It should answer not just the onboarding questions the user has, but the questions they couldn't know they had. “How do I accomplish discovering what software exists and how to install it?” clearly should be on that list.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:19 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:22 pm
heres a great case in point...take a person on his very first post telling you he is new to linux...
You do have good points there. Afraid I too am guilty of asking for Terminal command output but do hope (at least these days) I've made it clear enough how to do this. It does need to be worked on. Thanks for that reminder! :)

From what I've seen, it seems the case that it's far easier for responders to ask for a Terminal command output or two, than try to blindly* help the OP navigate the GUI in their specific release & DE ... the flavour of which is often unknown (at least initially) to the responder(s).

It's often hard to assess how much experience an OP has; also in some cases the exact nature of their query. Some of the post titles don't help either. I suspect there's also an issue with not wanting to appear to be condescending or simply forgetting that this is the way we do things & the OP may never have seen anything like it.

*Even knowing the environment, using graphical instructions does often require that the responder has that flavour of Mint in front of them in order to provide e.g. screenshots if necessary, whether bare metal or on a virtual machine.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by hbmcc » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:19 pm

I like Damien 1307. A lot!!! Because this is my first Linux user group---wait! I think that's a program file?, tarball?, whatever. I give up! Let's try "forums".

Works! And, THIS is a Popular Topic!

This is Post #1.

And, Damien teaches intelligent people. I'll bet he knows where to start.

Now does this mean I don't get to pass GO because I did not introduce myself? Worse yet, I don't even have a copy of Linux, Mint, Ubuntu, Red Hat, or Acorn on floppy, data cards--a Fortran fiasco--or a drive. I do have a manual. And, believe me when I say, you people chatter gibberish. Complete nonsense. I'd wipe the drive I *downloaded* Linux Mint to after the first couple instructions. Read the cards; no OS, no more manual. I am definitely not here because I love to keyboard a foreign language.

So, I am not here for "free beer" or a new language. Can I run Lunix and be happy without the gobbled y-gook Linux nerds love?

Yes, I am here because I buy one copy of something, AND, IT BELONGS TO ME! If I want to lease software, I'll lease a car rather than put myself in debt for 5 years.

[ Cloudy Thoughts: grrr spt, grummmm. How to ... grr hang on to this thread ... grr whatever they call these things....? Can I live with these insults? Sure! They expect me to. What insults? I am the perfect lab rat. ]
Let's try this one: Irascible? No. A grumpy old fart.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by hbmcc » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 pm

While the censors assess my Post #1, give them another, No.2 ..... "Is this a troll?" .....

To the OP question:

First, It's supposed to be an insult to those newbies (me, if I can get past the archaic White Fleet of pocket protectors) If I remember, 'noobs' is a censor-free derivation of "boobs" which was basically the same thing, "dumbos", idiots, ignorant swill. A derogatory. However, the question is about (Me, A swill, idiot, dumbo) among fellow 'nerds', archaic Fortraners, and some people who want to be punch card operators..... Have I riled you up, yet?

See, I can fling dirt, too. And, guess what? I am right. Why are you acting like 2020 is supposed to be 1972 when slide rules still ruled, and I hated Fortran4. So what? A Unix specialist taught me the capabilities of DOS6 when I realized the computer had grown up. Actually, I knew before, when our IBM Clone graduated to a 1MB chip. No more decks of punch cards--52 cards to close a question loop... or, whatever it required.

So, why should I digress, return to the womb, to use a 'mature' disco-roller? Discotheque. Gads! That stuff was bad even then, but history must primp and polish. Just call it distribution.

Next: Let's grow up and speak real language.
Let's try this one: Irascible? No. A grumpy old fart.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by hbmcc » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:22 pm

Next....
What is this now? No. 3 and the gestapo is spelling T-R-??

Serious stuff, now.

My first encounter with Linux was some guy flipping off Unix. Unix was drowning at the time, and with a whole new army of non-Nerds running computers. Computers running DOS. (Dummy Operating System.) The next encounter was not even an encounter.... The previous to last encounter, was a mint julep on one of those disks glued to a computer magazine. Mint was new is all I remember. In just my last couple days of review, there is still a "latest stable [distro?]" of Mint, and I am thinking ....

Come on kids, put away the ten gallon cowboy hats, feathers, and coon tails. Put the boat in drive and go.

So am I correct? Are you still the Merry Pranksters waxing poetic?

I'll wait. A while.
Let's try this one: Irascible? No. A grumpy old fart.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pierre » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:29 pm

there is a case in point, where those N00Bs are asked to Type Something into Terminal:
and there an assumption, that they can do that bit, and most can work that bit out,
but one should never assume that some Windows Refugee Can Do That Function . .

so, therefore, you should always give some extra assistance, when asking those sort of requests.
8)
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by jimallyn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:08 am

hbmcc wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 pm
If I remember, 'noobs' is a censor-free derivation of "boobs" which was basically the same thing
I have never heard that anywhere before. "Noob" is short for "newbie" which means, simply, a person who is new to Linux (or whatever).

"NOOBS" is "New Out Of the Box Software", the operating system installer for the Raspberry Pi, a 35 dollar single board computer that runs Linux. They have sold millions of of Raspberry Pis, and I have never heard of anybody considering NOOBS to be an insult.

From the Merriam Webster dictionary:
a person who has recently started a particular activity : newbie
...
Origin and Etymology of noob

by shortening from noobie, spelling variant of newbie

First Known Use: 2002
From the Oxford Dictionary:
A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.

Origin

Early 21st century: from newbie.
From the Cambridge Dictionary:
someone who has just started doing something, especially playing a computer game or using a type of software, and so does not know much about it
I think you are looking for problems where there are none. If you want help with installing or using Linux Mint, you have come to the right place. If you are simply looking for a place to "fling dirt" you have come to the wrong place, and likely won't last long here.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:42 am

hi hbmcc...im not anything special here in this forum and i think you will find many nice and helpful folks here...im just an old retired guy doing my best with the limited knowledge ive gathered over many years firstly with windows and now with linux operating systems...yes it is true that my comments in this particular thread on this forum was pointing out where i think we can all improve on in our collective quest in trying to help newbies with linux mint and linux in general, and yes i also have to make improvements myself since learning is after all, a lifelong endeavour...i know how to make it complicated as all get out myself, but i choose to make it as simple as i can in my questions or explanations, and the teenagers im helping out right now to learn linux keep me grounded enough to accomplish this little mission im presently on...some, it can be said, have forgotten simplicity over the years as they have become much more accomplished in troubleshooting linux systems and problem solving and i think, just sometimes, forget, or are not aware that others may not have the same base of knowledge that some have been able to attain...also you really wont find any "gestapo" here, just moderators and forum members who appreciate and encourage civility from one and all...in the open chat part of the forum, we even have a bit of fun with jokes, witticisms, warped senses of humour (im guilty of this)...lol...etc. im assured that was your intention as well with your posts (warped sense of humour, right?)...lol...feel free to be able to ask questions at any time about how we can all help make your linux experience more enjoyable for you as well as a fulfilling learning experience...DAMIEN
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by HaveaMint » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:50 am

:shock: NVM
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:41 am

hbmcc wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:50 pm
Next: Let's grow up and speak real language.
Excellent idea. I suggest you start with that yourself. Maybe then I can understand more than half of what you say. :mrgreen:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pierre » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:05 am

what is so Bad about Windows Updates Vs Linux Updates:

- win-7 has 862Kb has been going for 45Min so far
( this is on an Laptop that I've been given & there is another 98Mb of updates )
more likely to be the windows server, though.

- LinuxMint 19 has been downloading 8 updates @ a speed of 3050Kib/s
( completed that lot in just a few minutes )
this is on my Laptop ..

maybe the WiFi card in the windows machine is flaky, but even so . . .
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:00 am

The problem is the way they get installed, Win has a kind of DRM for it's updates.... no DRM scheme has ever been shown to be efficient.

Due to all the little checks and talk-backs to the M$ servers every single simple process takes longer than it should because each process is actually a set of processes and.... simply put every update that does not fall over is a minor miracle. The Win updating system is essentially the type of system many people fear systemd will become if left unchecked, monolithic to the point where fixing it's accumulated bloat is almost impossible to fix without a complete rewrite.

The difference is the linux way of doing an update is usually either completely blind or with minor checks at most.... neither extreme is really desirable for the common end user but any admin that has had to struggle with the over-caution of Win thinks of it with nothing but dread and contempt.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:07 am

hbmcc wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:22 pm
Next....
What is this now? No. 3 and the gestapo is spelling T-R-??

Serious stuff, now.

My first encounter with Linux was some guy flipping off Unix. Unix was drowning at the time, and with a whole new army of non-Nerds running computers. Computers running DOS. (Dummy Operating System.) The next encounter was not even an encounter.... The previous to last encounter, was a mint julep on one of those disks glued to a computer magazine. Mint was new is all I remember. In just my last couple days of review, there is still a "latest stable [distro?]" of Mint, and I am thinking ....

Come on kids, put away the ten gallon cowboy hats, feathers, and coon tails. Put the boat in drive and go.

So am I correct? Are you still the Merry Pranksters waxing poetic?

I'll wait. A while.
Most of us speak English here, There are other sections of the forum for your native tongue, though you may find one or two polyglots here. Of all of your posts I think I understood, precisely none of it. What is your point? I came to Linux from Windows via MacOS and DOS with a little VAX-Basic thrown in. Of all the help fora out there, This is one of the most accommodating and helpful. SO, I ask again, What is your point?
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:35 am

lsemmens wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:07 am
What is your point?
I don't think there was a point. Shall I call it nerd poetry written while under the influence, reminiscing times long past? If you get his references it was a mildly entertaining read. :)
Last edited by gm10 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by slipstick » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:32 pm

gm10 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:35 am
lsemmens wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:07 am
What is your point?
I don't think there was a point, Shall call it nerd poetry written while under the influence, reminiscing times long past? If you get his references it was a mildly entertaining read. :)
And what was that bit about slide rules? Slide rules still rule! I have one on my desk and use it often! :D
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by hbmcc » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:44 pm

Nice to still be here. Am I still on parole, in purgatory? For those of you ancients, "noobs" are inspected and posts reviewed. Doesn't matter. While I waited for my intro to die or post, there was time to think and catalyze some group thought and reaction. Worked ... a bit.

First, and no insinuation intended, this is a general discussion. I can handle this stuff. There is no way I will drop into a Mint forum cold, and ask "What do I do first?" And, that question after reading 4 pages of an installation and use guide? No way.

You have a problem! And it starts at the start.

Second, as a "nube", I won't run back to Windows. It will remain as either primary, safety net, or only, as long as there is nothing better to adopt. Also, the basic composition of the OP is derogatory of people new to Linux. The title does not encourage interaction with the "noob".

Notice, I am semantically separating myself from *your* view of me; I am a "nube", which carries a different context. Therefore, I can justify continued presence and discussion in spite of the exclusionary attitude present. You can solve the question as you have for years--not solved it--or listen to the real victim of years of your jabberwocky.

I think I am within the intent of the thread, if not literal context.
Let's try this one: Irascible? No. A grumpy old fart.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:56 pm

hbmcc wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:44 pm
For those of you ancients, "noobs" are inspected and posts reviewed. Doesn't matter.
It matters a lot, actually. On some days, half of the "noobs" are spammers. If the moderators, who you lovingly called 'gestapo' (always a great way to break the ice and make friends!) didn't eyeball each and every new post, this place would be drowning in spam and unreadable. We also move posts to the correct forum, fix obvious formatting issues, remove accidental duplicates, and so on. It's a lot of work, but we do it because we care. You're welcome. No, really, you are.
I am a "nube", which carries a different context.
If you say so. I prefer the word 'newcomer', myself.
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