What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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ajgringo619
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ajgringo619 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 am

oldgranola wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:48 pm
that there is no registry or ini files to edit...
Uhhh, I know that! :o However, there are plenty of config files that are very similar to the old .ini files; thankfully most don't need to be edited by hand anymore.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:56 am

ajgringo619 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:23 pm
williebthe3rd wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:16 pm
I think I'm a perfect candidate for this discussion. 8)

I have been using Windows since the 3.1 days. Learning to edit the ini files, then move to the infamous Windows Registry with XP...
If you can edit .ini files and feel comfortable with the Windows Registry, then Linux will be a breeze for you.
It has been a while since I edited a .ini file, but I am comfortable with Registry. I just don't use my linux machine enough (sadly) that I am comfortable with linux command line.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:16 am

ajgringo619 wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:09 am
oldgranola wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:48 pm
that there is no registry or ini files to edit...
Uhhh, I know that! :o
I think the reference was to the thread title .. in fact some may indeed be "lost" without a registry to mess with .. :roll: :lol:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by williebthe3rd » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:41 pm

In another topic, someone was concerned that I was "afraid" of the Terminal mode in Linux. ;) Honest answer: NOPE! :) Heck, I was tinkering in DOS back in the day, and sometimes still had to use the CLI to fix stubborn Windows issues! :mrgreen:

Yes, there are a number of Windows issues that I have been able to resolve in mere minutes... and no, I don't talk to MS at all! :shock: It's just so many years of tinkering with the wretched thing, I got to know a fair amount about the inner workings, and could fix a lot of problems with it. Yes, yes, I know... I *WILL* one day get to that point here in Linux, and yes, I look forward to that day! One step at a time. 8)

The point I was making was that I've gone from being a "near expert" with XP to a "near noob" with Linux in one fell swoop. :shock: It's quite disconcerting... but I know that those long-time-acquired skills in DOS/Windows WILL translate to Linux, in time. 8)

As for XP annoying me... no, not really. For years, now, I've used it with VERY FEW problems! Of course, knowing how to tinker "under the hood" and resolve many issues in minutes, helps. ;)

No question, the helpful folks here in these Forums are a PRIMARY REASON that I am here, and I am truly enjoying my foray into the Linux world. :) When MS started to SHOVE WIN10 down people's throats, was my very last straw! Short story: At my former employer, we had two WIN7 machines. I researched the Registry tweaks I needed to make to STOP WIN10 from forcing itself into them, and implemented them. (One machine had already, surreptitiously, downloaded THREE WHOPPING GIGS of WIN10 crap!!!) After deleting that, and making the Registry tweaks, I figured I was good to go. **NOT!!** :? Somehow, through some "update", MS got into my Registry, and REVERSED my settings! :x To say I was "fit to be tied" would be an understatement! I eventually found and installed a "Watchdog" utility to put a stop to that, and it worked. (WHEW!) So, that truly sealed their fate in my mind.

I knew I only had ONE alternative, so I began researching the various Distros of Linux, and settled on Mint... so here I am. :)

As for backups... that's something I had completely nailed in Windows. I really need to find a backup utility that is as robust and "easy-to-use" in Linux, as the "AOMEI Backupper" was to use in Windows. That utility would make a "perfect clone" of a RUNNING Windows system, from WITHIN WINDOWS! That's right... Plug in a USB drive, double-click the Backupper icon, and start the backup. When it finished, I would power-down, plug the new HD in as a secondary drive, then restore the backup to it. Power down when done, remove the original drive, put the new one in as primary, and power up. It just worked. I haven't, yet, seen anything like it for Linux... if someone knows of such a utility, I'd genuinely appreciate it. :) :) :)

Willie...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by ajgringo619 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:46 pm

williebthe3rd wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:41 pm
As for backups... that's something I had completely nailed in Windows. I really need to find a backup utility that is as robust and "easy-to-use" in Linux, as the "AOMEI Backupper" was to use in Windows. That utility would make a "perfect clone" of a RUNNING Windows system, from WITHIN WINDOWS! That's right... Plug in a USB drive, double-click the Backupper icon, and start the backup. When it finished, I would power-down, plug the new HD in as a secondary drive, then restore the backup to it. Power down when done, remove the original drive, put the new one in as primary, and power up. It just worked. I haven't, yet, seen anything like it for Linux... if someone knows of such a utility, I'd genuinely appreciate it. :) :) :)

Willie...
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:58 am

williebthe3rd wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:41 pm
As for backups.. I haven't, yet, seen anything like it for Linux...
.
Yes, you saw right, ie there is likely no GUI-based tools for system image or disk cloning recovery/backup in Linux, like those for Windows. One exception may be SystemBack in Linux. ... https://www.ostechnix.com/systemback-re ... ous-state/ (Create live system as ISO - maximum 4GB.?) .
...... The built-in Timeshift system restore program in LM 19 can also be used as a system image backup because system restore from the stored system snapshot(= restore point) can be done by booting the Live LM 19 media and launching Timeshift.

The built-in Disk tool in LM can be used to image or clone the hard-drive/disk to another storage media = recover by re-cloning or reimaging via the Disk tool of the Live LM media. ... https://www.techrepublic.com/article/ho ... nome-disk/ - How to create disk images using GNOME Disk
....... Clonezilla/rsync is a CLI-based tool in Linux.

One workaround is to image or clone the whole dual-booted system or hard-drive/disk of a dual-booted Windows+Linux machine by using a Windows GUI-based tool by booting from the Windows partition(and not by booting from Linux), like Aomei, Macrium Reflect Free or Acronis True Image. Recovery will entail restoring both the Windows+Linux dual-booted system at the same time.
Last edited by michael louwe on Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:05 am

williebthe3rd wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:41 pm
As for backups... that's something I had completely nailed in Windows. I really need to find a backup utility that is as robust and "easy-to-use" in Linux, as the "AOMEI Backupper" was to use in Windows.
The difference is that the often defaulted linux file system, usually ext4, doesn't support a feature like Windwoes' volume shadow copy. You need to use LVM, btrfs, zfs, or this: Linux Hot Copy. It's for servers so there is no GUI.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by briandh25 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:38 am

Even though I don't consider myself a noob nor an expert, in my case I went back to windows simply because of quite noticeable screen tearing that I couldn't fix after trying many things that required plenty of time and effort. In the end I simply decided that I wasn't willing to spend so much time tinkering with the OS (which I liked but after a while I simply wanted to log into the computer and have everything working without many hiccups).
Now I'm running Windows 7 which works just fine for me (I don't do that much on the computer these days anyways).

I'd like to go back to Linux in the future and I understand that it is free therefore it doesn't have as much work into it as Windows can but that single issue with the screen tearing was enough for me to switch. If that alone was fixed, I'd go back to it. Maybe when I change my hardware... :)

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by BG405 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:14 am

briandh25 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:38 am
quite noticeable screen tearing that I couldn't fix after trying many things that required plenty of time and effort.
This is indeed a problem for some; did you try a different desktop environment? e.g. I have tearing (vsync) issues with my Mint 17.3 Cinnamon system - particularly with Waterfox - but my Mint and Manjaro KDE systems are completely tear-free. I think Mint Xfce is too, will have to check again to be sure though.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by williebthe3rd » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:18 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:58 am
.
Yes, you saw right, ie there is likely no GUI-based tools for system image or disk cloning recovery/backup in Linux, like those for Windows. One exception may be SystemBack in Linux. ... https://www.ostechnix.com/systemback-re ... ous-state/ (Create live system as ISO - maximum 4GB.?) .
OK, that's along the lines of what I'm looking for... the live ISO is certainly an appealing option!! :) (The 4GB limit, I would assume, applies only to DVDs?)

When I ran the first command in Terminal, it gave me this response. I also visited the site, and saw that it hasn't been updated in over 2 years... and needs some other tweaks for "sources"... So for now, I bailed out until I got more info.

Code: Select all

This PPA contain the stable version of Systemback.

Currently supported Ubuntu releases:
- 14.04.X LTS
- 15.04
- 15.10
- 16.04.X LTS
- 16.10

* DEVELOPMENT AND SUPPORT ENDED *
 More info: https://launchpad.net/~nemh/+archive/ubuntu/systemback
Press Enter to continue or Ctrl+C to cancel
^C
Thoughts? :)

Willie...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:48 am

williebthe3rd wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:18 am
OK, that's along the lines of what I'm looking for... the live ISO is certainly an appealing option!! :) (The 4GB limit, I would assume, applies only to DVDs?)
.
Systemback is available for Ubuntu 18.04 or LM 19(by another author/developer) at ... https://francoconidi.it/systemback-1-9- ... -10-18-04/

I think Systemback, as a system backup tool/utility, even though abandoned by the author, can still be used safely, unlike an abandoned or unsupported web-browser.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by williebthe3rd » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:03 pm

michael louwe wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:48 am

Systemback is available for Ubuntu 18.04 or LM 19(by another author/developer) at ... https://francoconidi.it/systemback-1-9- ... -10-18-04/

I think Systemback, as a system backup tool/utility, even though abandoned by the author, can still be used safely, unlike an abandoned or unsupported web-browser.
The site is in another language, so I had to run it through Google Translate to make heads or tails of it. ;) I assume that Ubuntu 18.4 is "close enough" to Mint 18 to be compatible? (This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel like a noob!) ;)

Willie...

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by karlchen » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:28 pm

Hi, williebthe3rd.

Ubuntu 18.04 => Mint 19
Ubuntu 16.04 => Mint 18.x
Ubuntu 14.04 => Mint 17.x

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by CinaMint » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:45 am

vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
We've discussed elsewhere the impediments to getting people to try Linux.

There are three types of computer users:
1. Those who will never try Linux (for reasons in the 'what stops Linux becoming more mainstream' thread)
2. Those who try Linux and run away back to the 'safety' of Windows (or Mac)
3. Those who stick with Linux.

Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?

I think this is the area most important to address
Well for my part - I've just spent the last 3 days trying out Linux Mint 'Bionic Beaver' (now there's a name). As a lifelong Windows user, I thought it's about time to start looking at alternatives as I'm not sure I like the way Windows 10 is heading.

My experiences so far: Disappointing.
After spending a day fiddling with partitioning to get a dual boot system and corrupting a pre-existing Windows installation, I finally managed to fix the MBR and get it working now.

However, everything else has been a mass of frustration. The default themes are not working properly - causing window and text display problems - especially in Playonlinux, so you can't read the notes. Next there are apps highlighted in Red in POL, but nothing to say why.

I have spent 2 days trying to get Wine installed and given up completely - it is far too complicated and far too buggy with no proper help. Despite Googling my ar*e off trying to ascertain what the heck one is supposed to install when faced with this little array when searching for 'Wine', it's no wonder I'm put right off.
Screenshot from 2018-10-27 12-06-00.png
I am still no clearer and as I must be able to use Office Apps, this is one of the first things I need to address or there is no point in sticking with any of this.

I find the whole installation of apps, the terminal interface completely irritating - and at this point have zero confidence in trusting anything to Linux given how unstable this seems to be.

To answer the thread's question - there is too much 'suck it and see' with Linux and if you are like me - who likes to get stuck in and get productive, it's not going to work. Everything I want to do I have to Google support or help to find out how to do something, or what does this or that mean. The interface is not intuitive - the eye candy may be good, but underneath there is no way I can get it working 'out of the box'. Command lines in terminal don't work as instructed from support articles - even trying to get the Wine version you are running fails to provide anything. Then installing the programme using the command interface takes ages, supposedly finishes but is not actually installed???? I rest my case.

The biggest let down has been Wine - I've not got this to work and it has completely put me off. There are plenty of error messages and Googling these wields issues with compatibility of this mint version. So my question is when I installed this, why the hell did it point me to this version and not a proper working version?

We've spent years migrating away from the DOS days and getting used to GUIs. GUIs now rule - so I now find it alien to start having to regress back to using the DOS equivalent - 'Terminal' to get things done - it is just counter-intuitive and I really don't want to have to start learning another load of command line syntax all over again. So maybe that's another reason why people go running back. That and having to Google 'how to' on everything. It wastes so much time and makes you feel utterly deflated - asking yourself the question "why am I putting myself through all this stress"?

So although I was Category '1', I've ventured into category '2' and am not having a good enough experience to stay in Category '3'.

I may completely dump this and try another flavour - but I suspect there are going to be the same hurdles to overcome.

Is it worth it? Maybe if you have a 1000 years to waste on trying to experiment and get working, but I have yet to be convinced. Having said that, my current dislike for Windows 10 is the only thing that is going to make me keep at it a little longer. Although I think I may have to reinstall everything and start from a different version of Mint. Releasing this V19 as the latest is not really right IMO if half the stuff doesn't work.
Last edited by CinaMint on Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:42 am

CinaMint wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:45 am
Is it worth it? Maybe if you have a 1000 years to waste on trying to experiment and get working
Or you could ask us for help, and possibly save yourself lots of time and frustration. Welcome, by the way!
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:24 am

I really can't go "running back to Windows" on this machine...it's an old XP box I formatted and then started anew with LM19, Even if I still had the XP install media, I obviously couldn't go back and can't do Windows 10 unless I buy it, and if Windows 10 even works on this aging Dell with a Pentium 4!

But my other computer was a laptop with Windows 10, and better specs.

When I started playing around with Linux, I decided to use a live USB with persistence and just kept booting with that all day. At some point, I wanted to dual boot, but couldn't figure out how to do it, there was something in the way and I decided to just go ahead and keep using the USB instead of asking for help.

I say "was" because the laptop died.

And that forced me to get this thing completely into Linux, after pulling whatever files I wanted to save - the XP box had been dormant since whenever Microsoft ended XP support, so there was not much to pull.

Then, one thing many new users moving from Windows encounter.

My laptop's built-in WiFi adapter worked fine with LM 19, but the Netgear WA111 adapter I bought intending to use with LM 19 here on this machine doesn't work. At all. I even dug into trying to get the Windows drivers working with a wrapper, but no dice. I tried about three times using three different sets of instructions, and gave up and bought the TP-Link 722 adapter that worked plug and play out of the box.

And I'm mostly happy. I see a very minor glitch here or there - right now there is a small black box in front of part of the time display and the word "Menu" down on the bottom task bar, but that's no big deal.

I mainly use Chrome, which came over fine with all my settings/extensions/etc. And if I ever need any office-type software, my needs are simple enough and LibreOffice is fine. For MY needs, the software works, though there is no Linux version of the text app for Verizon, so I just use Android Messages for web.

But....

I am not the typical "newbie".

The typical "newbie" wants the computer to turn on, boot up and work, including all the Windows software (i.e. games). They don't want to have to struggle to get their WiFi adapter working.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Flemur » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:55 am

vladtepes wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:05 pm
There are three types of computer users:
1. Those who will never try Linux (for reasons in the 'what stops Linux becoming more mainstream' thread)
2. Those who try Linux and run away back to the 'safety' of Windows (or Mac)
3. Those who stick with Linux.
Looking at user group 2 - what reasons do you think send new people running away from Linux?
I'm at about 2.5, and actually got sick enough of linux yesterday that I booted Win7.

Because

- Crummy applications software for audio and video. I wouldn't use linux w/o wine.

- Frustrating stupid system software:

-- horrible font software. I have two current unanswered questions in this forum about hard to read and apparently unchangeable fonts on three different, very common programs: synaptic, vlc and smplayer. Fonts are controlled by literally dozens of files in various locations. It's ludicrous.

-- that's related to the terrible "desktop" implementation where desktops interfere with each other and use - or ignore - different setup files.

-- stuff like using "sudo" breaks your software, or people posting here because they can't change a program:file-type association (linux mime also has hundreds of files in dozens of locations, and is also ludicrous). Audio.

-- A guy wants to run "Simple terminal command at startup" viewtopic.php?f=213&t=280347
Here's the six-step solution (which didn't work) viewtopic.php?f=42&t=275464
The correct answer should be "Put the command name in <some file that's the same for all desktops>."
The guy never did get an answer on how to run a simple terminal command at startup. Maybe it's too complicated....

IMHO, the only really good parts of linux are derived from UNIX (users, file system structure and bash/etc), and the rest of it, especially the stuff from "freedesktop.org" are usually just quirky hacks.
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:02 am

See! Ha! Crappy fonts, ugly interface.

Also no iTunes for Linux.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:11 am

CinaMint wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:45 am


Is it worth it? Maybe if you have a 1000 years to waste on trying to experiment and get working, but I have yet to be convinced. Having said that, my current dislike for Windows 10 is the only thing that is going to make me keep at it a little longer. Although I think I may have to reinstall everything and start from a different version of Mint. Releasing this V19 as the latest is not really right IMO if half the stuff doesn't work.
Linux is not an "out of the box" operating system. It is far more powerful than Windows and as such requires some more understanding. Obviously you have some experience and skills with Window OS, but Linux is not Windows. Unix wasn't really developed to run on PCs, and was more geared for Mini computers like the VAX and the AS400 where people would attach a bunch of workstations and run from a console. A lot of the things added since were afterthoughts to make it more compatible with the Microsoft world, and it was done by hobbyists and not too many professionals. That's why you don't PAY for it. Is Photoshop easier than GiMP? Sure! But GiMP doesn't cost $400, either, and if you take the time to learn it, you can do anything you can do with PhotoShop. Likewise, sound and video were afterthoughts, and means that people developing had to be careful not to step on the toes of the big guys, some of whom would sue a hobbyist programmer in a heartbeat. Even 'friendly' distributions used to be a bear until Ubuntu and Mint came along. But still, to get the most out of it you have to get under the hood and tinker a little.

As Linux' popularity increases, especially among Windows users who don't want 10 running their computers for them, more people with less skill come over, and the developers try to come up with an easy to use solution. Before that, most Linux users were either programmers or IT pros; people who are quite used to tinkering under the hood. I was the OS guy at a helpdesk at GE back when Windows 95 was just hitting the streets, and also had a fair amount of Novell experience as well. The first 2-3 times I loaded up Linux (Caldera and Mandrake) I was like confused IS GOING ON HERE?!?!?! So I'd wipe the disk and reload Windows NT. The first real good experience I had was with SuSE, before Novell got into things. It was a long, hard road, because knowing some programming sure helps.

Then Mint came along. I tried it and went to Arch. Mint was too Mickey Mouse for an "experienced user" like me! And compared to a lot of the people here, I don't know squat! But you "improvise, you overcome, you adapt!" And, basically, there was a program that cost $499, that came free with Linux! Big incentive there!

The inexperienced user is not Linux' target, but some, like Mint, are trying to change that. But it's still going to take some effort sometimes to get things to work, but when you do, you wind up with something YOU want.

Me, I don't like paying stupid money for software. Corel has a program called AfterShot Pro, that sells for $59 for Linux or Windows and is as good as LightRoom. You can get it for $29 quite often for a lifetime license. Too bad more of the Big Guys aren't willing to do this, it would go a long way towrds homogenization between platforms. BTW, the Linux version is more intuitive and has more features. Interesting...

Not only that, it turns a job nto a hobby, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that! :wink:
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One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:13 am

Flemur wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:55 am

IMHO, the only really good parts of linux are derived from UNIX (users, file system structure and bash/etc), and the rest of it, especially the stuff from "freedesktop.org" are usually just quirky hacks.
See above... :wink:
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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