What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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Flemur
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Flemur » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:53 am

Arch_Enemy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:13 am
See above... :wink:
Yup. I was a Unix programmer for what, 20 years or something like that, but not system/OS level stuff, scientific and engineering programs with complicated interfaces (Motif!)

But -
Photoshop easier than GiMP? Sure! But GiMP doesn't cost $400, either, and if you take the time to learn it, <B>you can do anything you can do with PhotoShop</B>.
That's not because Photoshop costs a lot, it's because the people who made Photoshop were smarter about how people work, and the resulting GUIs show it.

Here's my rant about the awfulness of audacity vs audition, if you're into boredom:
viewtopic.php?t=271049#p1480478
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
Your data and OS are backed up....right?

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:56 pm

Flemur wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:53 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:13 am
See above... :wink:
Yup. I was a Unix programmer for what, 20 years or something like that, but not system/OS level stuff, scientific and engineering programs with complicated interfaces (Motif!)

But -
Photoshop easier than GiMP? Sure! But GiMP doesn't cost $400, either, and if you take the time to learn it, <B>you can do anything you can do with PhotoShop</B>.
That's not because Photoshop costs a lot, it's because the people who made Photoshop were smarter about how people work, and the resulting GUIs show it.

Here's my rant about the awfulness of audacity vs audition, if you're into boredom:
viewtopic.php?t=271049#p1480478
Nail on the head. I am a long term Photoshop user, and the ability to import my .nef raw files directly and work on them is why I stay with Windows (that an iTunes). If GIMP could convert RAW files, and was as easy and intuitive to use as Photoshop, I would switch in a New York minute.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:37 pm

Flemur wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:53 am
Here's my rant about the awfulness of audacity vs audition, if you're into boredom:
viewtopic.php?t=271049#p1480478
I have been using Audacity on Windows for ages, only because it is free and works "well enough" for me...I do very simple audio editing.

I learned those quirks pretty early on, and work around them...biggest way for me is to remember that if I am just bringing in or saving out audio, use Import/Export. I don't even deal with the save menus because they are expecting to save a project, which I don't need or care about.

Expecting Audacity to be a direct clone of Audition, or the same with LibreOffice/MS Office, or GIMP/Photoshop, is expecting far too much.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Flemur » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Inundated wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:37 pm
Expecting Audacity to be a direct clone of Audition, or the same with LibreOffice/MS Office, or GIMP/Photoshop, is expecting far too much.
I never said anything like that. I just expect software to ... not be full of bugs and bogus misleading messages.
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] if/when it is solved!
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:50 pm

You've missed the point. The software does work, it's just that you have to learn new ways of doing things. You can't say that Windwoes software is perfect and there are no bugs in that? Of course there may be some bugs in Linux software too, Often they get fixed in less time than in the windoze world. I gave up trying with Photoshop years ago, because there was a steep learning curve for my limited needs. I view Gimp as similar, and in some ways more intuitive than Photoshop ever was. Audacity works out of the box in Linux, just as it did with Windoze. I'm currently converting a complex Word document to LibreOffice and, again, found that LibreOffice Basic, is as powerful as VBA, but requires a learning curve with a little more effort because the help files are not laid out in the same way.

There are still some programs that do not have a valid alternative in Linux - Games excluded. One is a good alternative to Google Sketch-up and M$ Access. MYSQL will replace Access, but, it is at another Level again. Libre Office Base is ok for a flat file, but I could not develop complex relationships and lookups, so it still has a way to go before becoming a valid database alternative to Access.

Like all things new, there will be a learning curve involved. After a short time, when you are comfortable with the new environment, you'll find the old one clunky and non-intuitive. I have managed to convince Sketchup to work in POL and have found an alternative database app that does what I need without the bells and whistles that I would have liked. so, in my case, Linux is everything I need.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by CinaMint » Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 am

Interesting comments.

As I said I'm from the Windows camp - and have been since DOS 5 / Windows 3 days :shock: But that aside, and remembering the main title of this thread, plus the constant hype from the 'Linux Luvvies' that encourage people to dump 'Windoze' and come over to this OS - it's really not surprising that a lot of people like me have issues and not a great first time Linux experience - which after all I assume is what the objective is - to get more users migrating.

Appreciating all the arguments that it is 'Free' and written by volunteers and the like - that is not in dispute. Many Windows users would say their OS is free at the point they buy their PCs as it is pre-installed - regardless if their is a small licence premium included in that price. To all intents, the OS works - the software works and to a larger extent all commercial software works (bugs aside of course). What users are not expected to do is get buried into levels of DOS-like commands to load packages or to install features or certain packages. Again, this morning I was greeted with errors concerning some repositories for some WINE software that is no longer accessible along with an A4 page of techno-babble that means diddly to me. So I spent half an hour combing through the sources settings to basically remove everything until the error disappeared on cache update.

Also, putting aside the Photoshop / Gimp comparisons - that is something you can get to learn like any new application software package - take it or leave it.

But fundamentally, the OS to me leaves a lot to be desired. If I had one suggestion, it would be for those developing these ideas to read forums like this and see what it is people dislike about the whole experience and try to take their heads out of the sand and come at this from the perspective of having Linux amnesia. How would one develop an OS that is user friendly, easy to get on with, required no special command line syntax to learn (but had the facility to use this for power users) and generally to keep things graphically intuitive and functional. Let's face it GUIs should be easy to use, logical in layout and easy to follow. The days of DOS / Terminal commands are not for the masses, are not fast are not intuitive and are frankly archaic as a direct input method to get things done.

Decide what one is writing the OS for - who are the target users - Home / Pros or Corporate Server types and develop several additions (as there seem to already be certain flavours that favour these environments). But it seems to me that one cannot just have one or the other and this results in a mish mash of GUI / Command line requirements that do not sit well with newcomers and is off-putting. This is just my observation. I remember years ago looking at the NeXSTEP OS and seeing how the object orientated system was such a great idea and still is in theory - that something could be OS interchangeable and invisible to the user - dragging a database or excel file from one OS to another and it just opens and works on the fly. Considering this was the idea all those years ago and yet today we are still faffing about with compatibility issues is probably why we are not as advanced as we should be. Although I suspect this of course has much to do with corporate greed and intellectual property rights.

So I applaud the basis of Linux and that it is free and that it is good for anyone to alter and change as they see fit - but I also think that this will be one of its drawbacks as there will never be any consistency not stability as each iteration provides more issues than it solves.

I should note that I've also read many other articles where others have also said that Linux Mint is not for beginners and should not be encouraged as such because it is fraught with unresolved issues and is not really fit for release (V19) at this point.

Now I think it might be time to try another flavour and see if I have more luck.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:16 am

CinaMint wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 am
What users are not expected to do is get buried into levels of DOS-like commands to load packages or to install features or certain packages.
You're not wrong. It would be great if newcomers never had to use the command line interface if they did not want to.
On the other hand, Mint is probably as close to that ideal as you're going to get right now. As a newcomer, I shunned the CLI (and I still, mostly, do); then again, I don't recall running into problems where I had to use it. If you find that you need to, maybe you are trying to do more advanced stuff than most newcomers? Or possibly you are not using the GUI options that are being offered. Installing software is mostly a matter of clicking a button in the software manager.

Again, if you don't ask questions, we can't help you and so we don't know what the problems are that you've been dealing with.
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If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:42 am

Flemur wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:17 pm
Inundated wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:37 pm
Expecting Audacity to be a direct clone of Audition, or the same with LibreOffice/MS Office, or GIMP/Photoshop, is expecting far too much.
I never said anything like that. I just expect software to ... not be full of bugs and bogus misleading messages.
And I am not saying that you're wrong on that point.

But I don't consider Audacity "awful" for what I need to do with it - admittedly, pretty basic straight audio editing. For complex multi-task editing, which I do very little these days, I will take Audition 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

Thankfully, for me, I don't need to afford Audition. I used it previously at work, where they bought it for the appropriate workstation.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by smurphos » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:28 pm

For me the transition was easy - I'm a cheapskate so i used Audacity / Gimp / various opensource Office suites on Windows for a long time before I came over to Linux, and do most of my work in the Cloud anyway. Nothing I found in Linux sent me running back to Windows. It felt cozy and comfortable from the outset. Glad to be out of the grind of slow buggy updates, fighting disk fragmentation, and hunting the internet for software. I used the command shell and batch scripts in Windows a lot so the terminal wasn't a shock, not that you need to use in much unless you are following tutorials (which tend to be terminal based because it is a quicker more generalist way of providing instructions)

I have no requirement for Wine and have never installed but I do appreciate that when folks struggle to get it up and running because they need the crutch of familiar software it can be disheartening.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by carum carvi » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:44 pm

1 Windows uses a different way of saving html pages.

Those windows style website pages cant be read by Linux software. Solution: I have selected the most important websites saved in Windows format and literally copied the text into OpenOffice documents. The rest of the Windows websites that I had saved, I have just deleted. To be honest, that Windows format was not following the world wide standard rules for HOW to save websites in decent Html format. But it was a handy 1 file format.


2 Windows uses an exfat format for discs. Interchangeable format between Apple users and Window users.

LinuxMInt 17 couldnt read exfat formatted discs. The newest Ubuntu still cant. But LinuxMint18 and 19 CAN!


Those 2 reasons kept me running back to Windows. Reason 1 I circumvented and reason 2 was solved by the excellent support of LinuxMint 18 !

I furthermore want to add that I had been using Linux software in Windows without knowing it for many years. Audacity and Vlc Mediaplayer were my favorite software programs during the Windows years. To my big surprise they were available in Linux as well ! Furthermore I had been using OpenOffice in Windows for years, therefore the switch to LibreOffice in LinuxMint was super easy.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:59 pm

carum carvi wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:44 pm
1 Windows uses a different way of saving html pages.

Those windows style website pages cant be read by Linux software. Solution: I have selected the most important websites saved in Windows format and literally copied the text into OpenOffice documents. The rest of the Windows websites that I had saved, I have just deleted. To be honest, that Windows format was not following the world wide standard rules for HOW to save websites in decent Html format. But it was a handy 1 file format.
That sounds like a problem with your browser, not the format. For example, Chromium on Linux reads and writes MHTML just fine:
mhtml.png
mhtml.png (6.47 KiB) Viewed 563 times

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by carum carvi » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:10 pm

GM10, that's a great tip! Never knew that. But that's typical of me being a newbie ofcourse, we dont know things like that. I just experimented with the live dvd version of LM17 years ago and that only offers Firefox.

I recently saw a post from another newbie who experimented with the live usb of LinuxMint 19 and he noticed that the videos werent playing in Firefox. He thought it was a defect of LinuxMint as well. How should he have to know that he hass to install the mint meta codecs seperatedly. Just as I thought it was a fault of LinuxMInt which wasnt able to read those Windows formatted websites.

This post is called WHAT sends noobs running back to Windows. And those first impressions that go somehow wrong, those impressions will last unfortunately. Although I persevered and I am glad I did!

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:12 pm

carum carvi wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:10 pm
This post is called WHAT sends noobs running back to Windows. And those first impressions that go somehow wrong, those impressions will last unfortunately.
Well, Firefox behaves the same on Windows as on Linux, but I agree that many users will probably never try to install another browser.

I just checked and it seems Wikipedia has a list with browser support for MHTML, regarding Firefox they say "Mozilla Firefox does not support MHTML.[5] Until the advent of version 57 ("Firefox Quantum"), MHT files could be read and written by installing a browser extension, such as Mozilla Archive Format or UnMHT.":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML
carum carvi wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:10 pm
I recently saw a post from another newbie who experimented with the live usb of LinuxMint 19 and he noticed that the videos werent playing in Firefox. He thought it was a defect of LinuxMint as well. How should he have to know that he hass to install the mint meta codecs seperatedly. Just as I thought it was a fault of LinuxMInt which wasnt able to read those Windows formatted websites.
Same as with your exFAT issue, intellectual property rights are mostly to blame for this, without the proper licenses Mint cannot/could not distribute all the non-free software they might have wanted to.
Last edited by gm10 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:15 pm

...you might also wanna further have a look at this thread here.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by carum carvi » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:48 pm

Thx-1138, very helpful tip. Just like the other tip of gm10 to use Chromium to read certain Microsoft Html files. But thinking back of WHAT made me run back to windows years ago, it were those initial crucial errors during the test run of the live DVD of LinuxMInt 17. It looked nice, but some essentials werent working. Any experienced computer users like gm10 and thx-1138 would have been able to find a workaround. But I am thinking from the perspective of an average computer user, who uses email and internet and some games. Those average users wont go online in irc text chats or forums, they just wanna see that the software works out of the box.

What just popped in my mind is that there should be a summary available of common problems that are often encountered by newbies that are testing a live ISO of LinuxMint for the very first time. That summary should be burned into the ISO, so it is read first by total newbies. Directly followed by solutions offered. This will give newbies hope that there is a solution to their problem and wont get them running back to windows immediately.

Dont get me wrong, I really love LinuxMint and I do love it's userfriendliness as well. But for total newbies some extra directions in how to solve a problem during a test run of an ISO would be helpful.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:27 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:56 pm
Flemur wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:53 am
Arch_Enemy wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:13 am
See above... :wink:
Yup. I was a Unix programmer for what, 20 years or something like that, but not system/OS level stuff, scientific and engineering programs with complicated interfaces (Motif!)

But -
Photoshop easier than GiMP? Sure! But GiMP doesn't cost $400, either, and if you take the time to learn it, <B>you can do anything you can do with PhotoShop</B>.
That's not because Photoshop costs a lot, it's because the people who made Photoshop were smarter about how people work, and the resulting GUIs show it.

Here's my rant about the awfulness of audacity vs audition, if you're into boredom:
viewtopic.php?t=271049#p1480478
Nail on the head. I am a long term Photoshop user, and the ability to import my .nef raw files directly and work on them is why I stay with Windows (that an iTunes). If GIMP could convert RAW files, and was as easy and intuitive to use as Photoshop, I would switch in a New York minute.
You load Raw Therapee and/or UFRAW. I think UFRAW integrates with GiMP better. When you use GiMP to open a .NEF, it calls up UFRAW, you then get acess to the RAW file, can make some quick changes there, and then it passes the file on to GiMP.

I have a pile of Nikons, a couple Olympus (Olympii?) and a couple Fujis and both UFRAW and Raw Therapee can handle the different RAW formats.


Edit: Now, if Canon would just make LINUX PRINTER DRIVERS!!!! :evil: I would never have to boot Windows again!
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One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:47 pm

CinaMint wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 7:18 am


I should note that I've also read many other articles where others have also said that Linux Mint is not for beginners and should not be encouraged as such because it is fraught with unresolved issues and is not really fit for release (V19) at this point.

Now I think it might be time to try another flavour and see if I have more luck.
Interesting observations. :)

Corporate world wants things to work so their employees don't have to be computer whizzes...nail on the head there.

However, I did find Mint to be the easiest to use right out of the box. What I can't understand is, if you're trying to target neophytes and new users, why remove the CODECS from the bundle?!?! Even I have blown right past the "Do you want to install multimedia CODECS?" question and then had to load them by hand. Almost everyone wants these installed by default; but I believe it has something to do with licensing, and this puts the onus on the end user.

I've tried almost everything out there. The reason I stick with Mint is because Clem and the gang put a lot of work into it to try and make it seamless and transparent to install and use, and focus on stability. My handle may be Arch Enemy, but in fact, I LOVE Arch! Talk about being able to tweak ANYTHING! But there are a few drawbacks. Arch made me very familiar with the CLI, and it's also a rolling release, and because I run some archaic photo software, about the 5th update removes or overwrites needed libraries and usually bones the whole installation. I was using it on my work machine, but after the third time my supervisor called and said "Can you look at...?" and I had to tell him I had to reload the OS he said, "Either switch to Windows or FIND SOMETHING THAT WORKS!" That's when I came back to Mint.

If you feel like delving into Arch, go the Manjaro route. The people there are like the people here; they realize that some people like me are going to get bitten by the Bleeding Edge stuff, so, while it is still a rolling release, they take the time to wring out the packages before putting them in the "Stable" respository.

The best thing to do with Arch/Manjaro is, get your system working the way you like it, and then completely turn off updates!

There are also some Debian/Ubuntu based distributions developed for schools to use that come closer to a simple out of the box experience, but they usually lack something, mostly a good Control Center to make quick changes.

BTW, the only times I have ever needed the CLI to load packages was when I've painted myself into a corner somehow. Synaptic works jut fine for packages from the repositories, and for 2nd /3rd party .deb files GDEBI-GTk package installer works well. It even checks dependencies and installs them automatically if needed.
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Arch_Enemy » Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:49 pm

Now, if I could just get Kuickshow to work again... :?
I have travelled 35629424162.9 miles in my lifetime

One thing I would suggest, create a partition a ~28G partition as /. Partition the rest as /Home.
When the system fails, reinstall and use the exact same username and all your 'stuff' comes back to you.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:53 pm

Cinamint wrote:I have spent 2 days trying to get Wine installed and given up completely - it is far too complicated and far too buggy with no proper help. Despite Googling my ar*e off trying to ascertain what the heck one is supposed to install when faced with this little array when searching for 'Wine', it's no wonder I'm put right off.
.
Yes, Linux presents some problems of lack of information, especially for newbies. The first i heard about the Wine program in 2016, it said that it could be used to run Windows programs on Linux. Hurray.! So, I happily installed Wine on Linux Mint 17.3 but could not get it to work. Turns out, you need to be a tech-geek to tweak, configure and get it to work. On top of that, only mostly old Win XP/Vista era Windows programs will work. Uninstalling Wine completely was also a problem.
....... After some digging/googling, I found out that Wine is the base development program for a non-free/commercial program called Crossover by Codeweavers Inc. Seems the Wine developers purposely made Wine practically unusable for non-tech-geeks, in order to get them to buy Crossover which really does allow newbies or "higher" to run most Windows programs on Linux and Macs, even modern ones. ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)
https://www.codeweavers.com/ - Run Windows Software on Your Mac, Linux & Chrome OS System
Corporate sponsorship
The main corporate sponsor of Wine is CodeWeavers, which employs Julliard and many other Wine developers to work on Wine and on CrossOver, CodeWeavers' supported version of Wine. CrossOver includes some application-specific tweaks not considered suitable for the WineHQ[non sequitur] version, as well as some additional proprietary components.

Third-party applications
Some applications require more tweaking than simply installing the application in order to work properly, such as manually configuring Wine to use certain Windows DLLs. The Wine project does not integrate such workarounds into the Wine codebase, instead preferring to focus solely on improving Wine's implementation of the Windows API. While this approach focuses Wine development on long-term compatibility, it makes it difficult for users to run applications that require workarounds. Consequently, many third-party applications have been created to ease the use of those applications that don't work out of the box within Wine itself.
Eg Winetricks and PlayonLinux
.
Because I am an average home-user, non-power user and non-gamer, I have little problem staying with Linux and no need to run back to Windows.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:04 pm

For Windows programs it's best to use.... Windows. It really is that simple. :mrgreen:
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