What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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gm10
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:41 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 am
Sometimes the only difference between FOSS and retail is for one you get the same headaches for free and for the other you have the privilege of paying a small fortune for it.
The other difference is that with FOSS you can pay the small fortune to someone to change to program to match your needs.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:43 am

Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:10 am
We're mostly users here. What other kind of response were you expecting, or hoping for, instead?
I had the same kinds of responses in the suggest Ideas section of the community section... my vague theory is that the staff there might exist solely to shoot down 99% of traffic and "benevolently" put through a few cosmetic changes now and then. Suffice to say I gave up on actually achieving anything very early on and completely ignore that area now.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:44 am

gm10 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:41 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 am
Sometimes the only difference between FOSS and retail is for one you get the same headaches for free and for the other you have the privilege of paying a small fortune for it.
The other difference is that with FOSS you can pay the small fortune to someone to change to program to match your needs.
That only works if that FOSS program already exists.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by gm10 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:08 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:44 am
gm10 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:41 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 am
Sometimes the only difference between FOSS and retail is for one you get the same headaches for free and for the other you have the privilege of paying a small fortune for it.
The other difference is that with FOSS you can pay the small fortune to someone to change to program to match your needs.
That only works if that FOSS program already exists.
And it only matters if you've got a computer to run it on. Waah?

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Moem
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:32 am

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:43 am
Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:10 am
We're mostly users here. What other kind of response were you expecting, or hoping for, instead?
I had the same kinds of responses in the suggest Ideas section of the community section...
Okay, but I'd still be interested in your answer to the above question.
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MurphCID
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:17 am

gm10 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:41 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 am
Sometimes the only difference between FOSS and retail is for one you get the same headaches for free and for the other you have the privilege of paying a small fortune for it.
The other difference is that with FOSS you can pay the small fortune to someone to change to program to match your needs.
LOL so correct.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:58 am

Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:32 am
rambo919 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:43 am
Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:10 am
We're mostly users here. What other kind of response were you expecting, or hoping for, instead?
I had the same kinds of responses in the suggest Ideas section of the community section...
Okay, but I'd still be interested in your answer to the above question.
Well I suppose actual acknowledgement of reality would be nice, it irks me when people willfully have blinders on but at the same time criticize those who don't. But as for actual change? I doubt that's going to be the direct effect. You don't change systems you change people because it's usually actually the systems that adapt to the people most of the time (when everything is functioning sanely anyway) instead of the other way around.

I am by nature compelled to lift blinders whether it actually changes anything or not. Mostly today's posting was about highlighting logic deficiencies and hypocrisies. I'm not as much laughing as crying.... though there is laughing.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by briandh25 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:21 am

BG405 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:14 am
briandh25 wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:38 am
quite noticeable screen tearing that I couldn't fix after trying many things that required plenty of time and effort.
This is indeed a problem for some; did you try a different desktop environment? e.g. I have tearing (vsync) issues with my Mint 17.3 Cinnamon system - particularly with Waterfox - but my Mint and Manjaro KDE systems are completely tear-free. I think Mint Xfce is too, will have to check again to be sure though.
Back then if I remember correctly I tried Mate, Cinnamon, Ubuntu's Gnome and XFCE. Same issue with all them.
Oddly enough, KDE seemed to work a bit better but there was still screen tearing but it would not happen all the time.

I'm planning on trying again somewhere in the future whenenver I have the time and energy to tinker with all this again. I hope Linux in general will keep moving forward but my hopes are not too high at least for now.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Esbeeb » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:31 am

My father ditched Linux when the photos he took on his Android phone couldn't be easily downloaded to his Linux Mint Laptop, after he plugged it into the laptop with a USB cable. All his non-Linux-using friends and family had no trouble doing that seemingly simple task.

I would say the biggest show-stopper these days is the lack of integration between mobile devices and Linux (over USB). Mobile devices are 1st class citizens now, and laptops are 2nd class citizens. When Google makes no Android client for Linux, that effectively downgrades a Linux Laptop to 3rd class citizen.

Likewise, there is no iTunes for Linux either. All it takes is for the big Mobile OS's (Android and iOS) to turn their backs on Linux desktop compatibility, and right then and there, Linux is doomed to 3rd-class citizen status. We live in a mobile world now, and the dynamics that the big mobile players create are the dynamics everyone at large accepts, and plays by.

Sure, there's "KDEConnect", but that's pretty much "3rd party"; as in not made by Google themselves.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:34 am

Esbeeb wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:31 am
My father ditched Linux when the photos he took on his Android phone couldn't be easily downloaded to his Linux Mint Laptop, after he plugged it into the laptop with a USB cable
That's unfortunate. It works for me; it also works for my mother who has a bog standard Android (I have something similar to but not quite Android). So it's not like this never works. Of course, that doesn't help your father.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by slipstick » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:42 am

Esbeeb wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:31 am
My father ditched Linux when the photos he took on his Android phone couldn't be easily downloaded to his Linux Mint Laptop, after he plugged it into the laptop with a USB cable.
I had some trouble the first time I tried that on my desktop - the solution was simple, but not obvious to me.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=273364#p1497606
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they ain't.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Esbeeb » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:49 am

Moem wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:34 am
That's unfortunate. It works for me; it also works for my mother
I've got a Samsung J1 Mini Prime Android 6 phone. I just snapped a photo with it, plugged the phone into the USB port of my Linux Mint 19.1 laptop, and unfortunately, neither Nemo nor Shotwell recognizes the phone, nor let's me download the photo.

I do have Nextcloud set up however, that's how I move files between my phone and my laptop. :)
Last edited by Esbeeb on Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Esbeeb » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:59 am

slipstick wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:42 am
I had some trouble the first time I tried that on my desktop - the solution was simple, but not obvious to me.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=273364#p1497606
I appreciate your tip, and I tried to do it, but Samsung has got Android locked down really badly on this el-cheapo phone. So no dice. Note that OTG USB sticks are not even usable on this phone (connected to the nano-USB port). Basically, Samsung Android is a stinky piece of poo, if you don't have any Samsung flagship phone.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by smurphos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:06 am

Esbeeb wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:49 am
Linux Mint 19.2 laptop
That's your fault for using Mint versions from the future.. :) :wink:

Check your phone settings - the USB configuration may well be hidden in Developer Settings. Which in turn you may need to enable. Go to About Phone is settings and repeatedly tap on Build Number (7 times).

You want MTP to be the protocol.

After you plugin you will probably need to agree a prompt on your phone to allow access.

Personally I use Solid Explorer on my phones. Then if I want to mount the phone on the PC wirelessly I enable Solid Explorers FTP server. If i want to mount the PC on the phone I mount via Solid Explorer via SFTP (the PC is running a SSH server). Samba works to.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Esbeeb » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:21 am

smurphos wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:06 am
Check your phone settings - the USB configuration may well be hidden in Developer Settings. Which in turn you may need to enable. Go to About Phone is settings and repeatedly tap on Build Number (7 times).

You want MTP to be the protocol.
I turned on the developer mode, and in Settings -> Developer Options -> USB Connection, indeed I can choose between MTP (which was the default), and PTP (which @slipstick suggested). Selecting either MTP, or PTP elicits no response from my Linux Mint 19.1 laptop in Nemo or Shotwell.

Apparently Samsung has silently castrated those features, cruelly leading me to believe they actually do anything as we all would expect, when I plug my phone into USB. There are no linux kernel log messages generated either (on the laptop), when the phone is plugged into USB (using either MTP or PTP). The kernel remains silent, like absolutely nothing was plugged in.

This sort of magnifies my earlier point
, because try as they might to create compatibility with Android, the Linux community will only gain very spotty and partial wins, as various phone vendors like Samsung hack and slash up Android however the heck they like, leaving it a highly inconsistent experience when you try to get Android working in Linux. When people say "Android", they are actually talking about a particular Android distro which might be, for example, better described in my case as "the non-Flagship, 2nd-class citizen Samsung Android".
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:11 am

Actually I have started having problems connecting android devices to windows machines too especially when it comes to usb debugging. I think the problem is the official drivers are 5+ years old and the only one's I have gotten to actually work are unofficial one's.... that at some point stop working too for some explainable reason.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by MurphCID » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:19 pm

Esbeeb wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:21 am
smurphos wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:06 am
Check your phone settings - the USB configuration may well be hidden in Developer Settings. Which in turn you may need to enable. Go to About Phone is settings and repeatedly tap on Build Number (7 times).

You want MTP to be the protocol.
I turned on the developer mode, and in Settings -> Developer Options -> USB Connection, indeed I can choose between MTP (which was the default), and PTP (which @slipstick suggested). Selecting either MTP, or PTP elicits no response from my Linux Mint 19.1 laptop in Nemo or Shotwell.

Apparently Samsung has silently castrated those features, cruelly leading me to believe they actually do anything as we all would expect, when I plug my phone into USB. There are no linux kernel log messages generated either (on the laptop), when the phone is plugged into USB (using either MTP or PTP). The kernel remains silent, like absolutely nothing was plugged in.

This sort of magnifies my earlier point
, because try as they might to create compatibility with Android, the Linux community will only gain very spotty and partial wins, as various phone vendors like Samsung hack and slash up Android however the heck they like, leaving it a highly inconsistent experience when you try to get Android working in Linux. When people say "Android", they are actually talking about a particular Android distro which might be, for example, better described in my case as "the non-Flagship, 2nd-class citizen Samsung Android".
This is very good post and an excellent point. Linux needs to heed this warning.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Esbeeb » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:44 pm

MurphCID wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:19 pm
This is very good post and an excellent point. Linux needs to heed this warning.
Thanks! I personally feel that Nextcloud is the answer. I just installed a new Nextcloud 14 server, and it only took me two days (installing from a snap, on a rented $5 US/month VPS server with only 1GB of RAM, which is plenty for me). It has a proper Let's Encrypt SSL certificate, and everything.

Personally, I'd like to see tighter integration of Nextcloud into all Linux distros: webdav support by default in the File Browsers (Linux Mint's Nemo can do this, BTW, once you install the "davfs2" package), and furthermore provide Wizards that offer to sign users up to existing Nextcloud servers maintained by the distros themselves, for a small monthly fee, like $1 US/month. Yes, a chance to make some money! Similarily distros should install Thunderbird by default, where "Cardbook" is also installed by default (needed for CardDAV addressbook integration).

Edit: After getting totally fed up with my Samsung phone mentioned above, I've since got a used Nexus 6P phone, put LineageOS on it, and the PTP mode works well enough on it such that I can see photos in Nemo (then drag and drop them into Shotwell). Shotwell attempts to import photos from the 6P, but fails, whether the phone is in PTP or MTP mode. Only the drag and drop of photos from Nemo into Shotwell works (using PTP mode).
Last edited by Esbeeb on Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Inundated » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:48 am

Esbeeb wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:49 am
Moem wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:34 am
That's unfortunate. It works for me; it also works for my mother
I've got a Samsung J1 Mini Prime Android 6 phone. I just snapped a photo with it, plugged the phone into the USB port of my Linux Mint 19.1 laptop, and unfortunately, neither Nemo nor Shotwell recognizes the phone, nor let's me download the photo.

I do have Nextcloud set up however, that's how I move files between my phone and my laptop. :)
On my Moto e5 Play, plugging in defaults to USB Charging, and the pull down menu offers options including "Transfer files". That opens up the file system on the phone to Nemo, but any attempt to access those files on LM flips up "libmtp" errors each time.

The other pull down menu options include "Transfer photos (PTP)", which I think works (but only shows pictures), and something about MIDI (?!?).

This is not mission critical to me, so I'm not really going to try to figure out a solution. If I really need to access files on the phone, I can just put 'em up on my Drive or Dropbox accounts, which are being synced with this machine...I have installed Dropbox on LM, and bought Insync for the Google Drive part.

But I can see why this would be off-putting for Joe Average trying to access his music collection on his phone.
DESKTOP: Dell Dimension 8400 - Linux Mint 19 Xfce
LAPTOP: Dell Latitude E6400 - Linux Mint 19 Cinnamon primary, Windows 10 dual boot

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by smurphos » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:23 am

Inundated wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:48 am
On my Moto e5 Play, plugging in defaults to USB Charging, and the pull down menu offers options including "Transfer files". That opens up the file system on the phone to Nemo, but any attempt to access those files on LM flips up "libmtp" errors each time.
What version of Mint and what version of Android on the phone.

I'm on Mint 19 (with libmtp9 pre-installed) and the phone (Nokia 8) is on Android 8.1.0 with a 4.4 kernel. It works with no issues. It would be interesting to know what is the common factor with it not working.

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