What sends noobs running back to Windows?

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rambo919
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:44 am

Moem wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 am
That's funny! My mother by definition has had a lot more time available to use computers, and you don't know her... for all you know she could have been a programmer since 30 years. There were lots of women into programming back in the eighties, much more so than now.
But she is not a programmer, she is a very normal computer user who switched to Linux two years ago. I consider myself a noob in many ways because I switched less than three years ago myself.

Personally I translate the word noob as newcomer. And I certainly am exactly that. Who do you mean by '!'?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Intimidating woman that....

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thx-1138
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:54 am

rambo919 wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:44 am
Moem wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 am
...................There were lots of women into programming back in the eighties, much more so than now.
...................
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper

Intimidating woman that....
...since already speaking for historical memories previously => First computer program ever... :wink:

...and something especially for Moem, ie. computer-based but art-oriented as well...since speaking of the 'eighties'... :)

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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am

@ JosephM, .......
JosephM wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:22 pm
Brilliant post! Yes, I completely agree here. Winders just works. No command line tinkering, no going under the hood to tinker with something, no having to write a script to get your wifi working. Linux, take heed!
So I haven't used Windows in quite a long time. But as I recall, doing an install of Windows on brand new hardware, doesn't just work. It takes hours of jumping around, downloading drivers, getting this thing or that thing, to make it all work. Not mention what feels like days of waiting for it to update that first time. You can't compare the experience you get on a machine that came preinstalled with Windows to what you get when you install Linux yourself. I have a System76 machine here that came with Ubuntu and guess what? It just works.
Most noobs do not know how to do an install of Windows or Linux.

I have done a clean reinstall of Win 7 on a friend's Dell laptop about 2 years ago, after a hard-drive failure = replaced with a new hard-drive. Took about 45 minutes to complete and it just worked. Windows Update automatically installed the missing Wifi driver.
....... In Linux installation, if you have a Broadcom or Realtek Wifi adapter card, you have to "hunt" for the missing proprietary driver and manually install it yourself.

Thereafter, I made a System Image Recovery USB flash-drive using Macrium Reflect Free for the Win 7 installation. Trying to do the same for my own LM 17.3 installation seemed difficult, eg using the CLI-based Clonezilla program. So, I had to just rely on my Live LM 17.3 DVD for System Recovery = more work to be done if a reinstall of LM 17.3 is needed.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:31 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
I have done a clean reinstall of Win 7 on a friend's Dell laptop about 2 years ago, after a hard-drive failure = replaced with a new hard-drive. Took about 45 minutes to complete and it just worked. Windows Update automatically installed the missing Wifi driver.
....... In Linux installation, if you have a Broadcom or Realtek Wifi adapter card, you have to "hunt" for the missing proprietary driver and manually install it yourself.

Thereafter, I made a System Image Recovery USB flash-drive using Macrium Reflect Free for the Win 7 installation. Trying to do the same for my own LM 17.3 installation seemed difficult, eg using the CLI-based Clonezilla program. So, I had to just rely on my Live LM 17.3 DVD for System Recovery = more work to be done if a reinstall of LM 17.3 is needed.
I think I understand: it's a Holy Mission to make us poor misguided souls see the Light from Redmond.

So missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.... Imagine anyone seeing some generic value in two highly specific examples. :lol:
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
Most noobs do not know how to do an install of Windows or Linux.
This is true. Yet some people who have never installed Windows expect to be able to install a Linux-based OS, and grumble if it turns out that there are hurdles.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:58 am

Pjotr wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:31 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
Thereafter, I made a System Image Recovery USB flash-drive using Macrium Reflect Free for the Win 7 installation. Trying to do the same for my own LM 17.3 installation seemed difficult, eg using the CLI-based Clonezilla program. So, I had to just rely on my Live LM 17.3 DVD for System Recovery = more work to be done if a reinstall of LM 17.3 is needed.
I think I understand: it's a Holy Mission to make us poor misguided souls see the Light from Redmond.

So missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.... Imagine anyone seeing some generic value in two highly specific examples. :lol:
Imagine someone not seeing the obvious because of missionary zeal. Macrium Reflect is fully capable of backing up and restoring ext partitions.
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michael louwe
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:00 am

@ Moem, .......
Moem wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:19 am
michael louwe wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:36 pm
noob
noun; informal
noun: noob; plural noun: noobs

a person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
I doubt you and ! are noobs. Your 80 yo mother, yes.
That's funny! My mother by definition has had a lot more time available to use computers, and you don't know her... for all you know she could have been a programmer since 30 years. There were lots of women into programming back in the eighties, much more so than now.
But she is not a programmer, she is a very normal computer user who switched to Linux two years ago. I consider myself a noob in many ways because I switched less than three years ago myself.

Personally I translate the word noob as newcomer. And I certainly am exactly that. Who do you mean by '!'?
.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/no ... d-origins/
What it basically boils down to is that newbs are new to something, but willing to learn, whereas n00bs are new or really bad at something, but seemingly uninterested in learning, and often act disrespectfully.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by JosephM » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:02 am

Moem wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
Most noobs do not know how to do an install of Windows or Linux.
This is true. Yet some people who have never installed Windows expect to be able to install a Linux-based OS, and grumble if it turns out that there are hurdles.
Thank you for making this point. Not only that but they are doing it on machines that were never even tested to work with Linux. Some of the people in this thread are shooting their own arguments "in the foot", so to speak. I know from personal experience that the ease of installing windows on machines that didn't come with it can be as hit and miss as Linux. I have 5 machines in my home. On every one, Mint installs and just works. It's largely about the hardware. I know many people run into issue with other hardware.

The big problem I have with many of the arguments people are trying to use here is the existence of this mythical computer illiterate noob trying to install Linux. I know a whole lot of these people. They don't even know what Linux is, They sure wouldn't be trying to install it. They would only use Linux if someone handed them a machine set up and ready go. Just like they do Windows, MacOS, Android, or anything else.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by rambo919 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:03 am

Missionary zeal? I hope that's a joke, especially considering the general missionary zeal for linux tends to become (in this very thread in fact) somewhat fanatical at times.

I too have attempted clonezilla... I too avoid it if possible. Can't even remember the problems but they were extremely annoying at the time. No clue if current versions have improved enough.

Give credit where credit is due, it's not the hurdles themselves that are the problem it's the sheer misinformation widely abound. People get told that installing Linux is essentially idiot proof these days, then they try it and find out it's not, then they leave alienated. Or you get the missionary type that goes as far as to say that everything either works through wine (which it doesnt) or there is a perfectly adequate alternative available to app X (which there isn't) and the person gets the obvious conclusion that he was lied to. All this because seemingly no one has a sanely accurate perspective on what's "easy" anymore mostly because they only use their own abilities (and needs) as a measurement and even go as far as to belittle anyone that does not measure up....which does not exactly help you know. All it takes is one aggressive snob and a potential new linux user decides that this is just not worth the effort, it's just how it happens.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:15 am

@ catwaezel, .......
catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:58 am
Pjotr wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:31 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
Thereafter, I made a System Image Recovery USB flash-drive using Macrium Reflect Free for the Win 7 installation. Trying to do the same for my own LM 17.3 installation seemed difficult, eg using the CLI-based Clonezilla program. So, I had to just rely on my Live LM 17.3 DVD for System Recovery = more work to be done if a reinstall of LM 17.3 is needed.
I think I understand: it's a Holy Mission to make us poor misguided souls see the Light from Redmond.

So missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.... Imagine anyone seeing some generic value in two highly specific examples. :lol:
Imagine someone not seeing the obvious because of missionary zeal. Macrium Reflect is fully capable of backing up and restoring ext partitions.
Yes, but Macrium Reflect Free is a Windows-only app/program, ie you cannot install MRF in Linux.
....... Imagine someone not seeing the obvious because of missionary zeal; imagine having to use Windows and a Windows-only program to make a System Image of a Linux installation to back-up and restore ext partitions. So, missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by thx-1138 » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:17 am

...michael, in my wife's HP 250 G4 notebook, installation of Win7 SP1 previous year
(i never ever 'pushed' anyone from my close circle into Linux, that has to be their own free & conscious decision always):

1) Resolution was down to 800x600 or something...ok, not really important, such was almost always the case under Win.
2) Neither Ethernet neither Wi-Fi was working (not cool...).
3) USB ports not working either (what the ****!)

...i honestly was used to not experience that much many stuff going undetected after fresh XP / Win7 installs.
I literally had to download around 13-14 .exes from HP's site from my Mint here, and...burn them to a cd-r,
so that i could somehow transfer them to her laptop in the first place. Felt like going back to late 90s / early 00s.
The touchpad was still working like crap afterwards with the version offered from the HP site.
So i had to further search to eventually track down an older version of the Synaptics driver,
and of course, go through a round of various install-reboot-uninstalls...

Lesson that i learned that day? No, it wasn't "Win 7 sucks", lol...
It was ignore those who say that CDs are obsolete like floppies nowadays,
with sticks / memory cards and oh-so-many-other-options blah-blah...- do keep such CD drives enabled just in case.

Installation of whatever OS is always gonna be a pita for newbies & have it's variety of gotchas...even for experienced users as well.
Other than that... :mrgreen:
Last edited by thx-1138 on Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:17 am

JosephM wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:02 am
The big problem I have with many of the arguments people are trying to use here is the existence of this mythical computer illiterate noob trying to install Linux. I know a whole lot of these people. They don't even know what Linux is, They sure wouldn't be trying to install it. They would only use Linux if someone handed them a machine set up and ready go. Just like they do Windows, MacOS, Android, or anything else.
I agree.

My view is that it's very high comfort-zone familiarity coupled with a very low tolerance for trying to fix unexpected issues in an unfamiliar environment (Linux) that sends people back to Windows in short shrift. If Linux can't be up and fully productive within 15 minutes of completing the install then "it's all over, Red Rover" for a lot of people.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:27 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:15 am
Yes, but Macrium Reflect Free is a Windows-only app/program, ie you cannot install MRF in Linux.
....... Imagine someone not seeing the obvious because of missionary zeal; imagine having to use Windows and a Windows-only program to make a System Image of a Linux installation to back-up and restore ext partitions. So, missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.
That, I think, Michael, is a kind of missionary zeal. There is nothing wrong with booting into a different environment to take an image, be it Clonezilla or Macrium Reflect. It comes down to one thing, and one thing only; How valuable is your data? If the answer is "not very" then perhaps you might have a point, otherwise I don't believe you do.

My point is, if it works, does the job required, and if the data is valued, then one shouldn't seethe and shimmer in rage or feel like one is bathing in someone else's dirty bathwater merely because one has to run up a WinPE environment to make a backup. Rather one ought to feel satisfied, even gratitude perhaps, that the data is safely and securely backed up, irrespective of the backup environment.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:30 am

@ JosephM, .......
So I haven't used Windows in quite a long time. But as I recall, doing an install of Windows on brand new hardware, doesn't just work. It takes hours of jumping around, downloading drivers, getting this thing or that thing, to make it all work. Not mention what feels like days of waiting for it to update that first time. You can't compare the experience you get on a machine that came preinstalled with Windows to what you get when you install Linux yourself. I have a System76 machine here that came with Ubuntu and guess what? It just works.
JosephM wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:02 am
Moem wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:18 am
Most noobs do not know how to do an install of Windows or Linux.
This is true. Yet some people who have never installed Windows expect to be able to install a Linux-based OS, and grumble if it turns out that there are hurdles.
Thank you for making this point. Not only that but they are doing it on machines that were never even tested to work with Linux. Some of the people in this thread are shooting their own arguments "in the foot", so to speak. I know from personal experience that the ease of installing windows on machines that didn't come with it can be as hit and miss as Linux. I have 5 machines in my home. On every one, Mint installs and just works. It's largely about the hardware. I know many people run into issue with other hardware.

The big problem I have with many of the arguments people are trying to use here is the existence of this mythical computer illiterate noob trying to install Linux. I know a whole lot of these people. They don't even know what Linux is, They sure wouldn't be trying to install it. They would only use Linux if someone handed them a machine set up and ready go. Just like they do Windows, MacOS, Android, or anything else.
The topic is about noobs. Installing an OS is beyond most noobs. You are going off-topic when you try to disparage the Windows installation process as being worse than Linux.
....... Have you tried installing Puppy Linux or Arch Linux.? That was quite difficult.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by lsemmens » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:35 am

MurphCID wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:22 am
Winders just works. No command line tinkering, no going under the hood to tinker with something, no having to write a script to get your wifi working.
At least until "patch Tuesday"............ THIS is what finally DROVE me to Linux.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:37 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:30 am
The topic is about noobs. Installing an OS is beyond most noobs.
"...mythical computer illiterate noob..."

Still on topic.
michael louwe wrote: You are going off-topic when you try to disparage the Windows installation process as being worse than Linux.
Nonsense. He did no such thing.
michael louwe wrote: ....... Have you tried installing Puppy Linux or Arch Linux.? That was quite difficult.
"The topic is about noobs... You are going off-topic..."
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Pjotr » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:40 am

Since I switched to 100 % desktop Linux use, back in 2006, I've seen many similar threads on various Linux fora. Almost without exception, those threads were eventually taken over by people who were blaming their own incompetence on Linux.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by michael louwe » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:45 am

@ catweazel, .......
catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:27 am
michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:15 am
Yes, but Macrium Reflect Free is a Windows-only app/program, ie you cannot install MRF in Linux.
....... Imagine someone not seeing the obvious because of missionary zeal; imagine having to use Windows and a Windows-only program to make a System Image of a Linux installation to back-up and restore ext partitions. So, missionary zeal is the excuse for the poor arguments.
That, I think, Michael, is a kind of missionary zeal. There is nothing wrong with booting into a different environment to take an image, be it Clonezilla or Macrium Reflect. It comes down to one thing, and one thing only; How valuable is your data? If the answer is "not very" then perhaps you might have a point, otherwise I don't believe you do.

My point is, if it works, does the job required, and if the data is valued, then one shouldn't seethe and shimmer in rage or feel like one is bathing in someone else's dirty bathwater merely because one has to run up a WinPE environment to make a backup. Rather one ought to feel satisfied, even gratitude perhaps, that the data is safely and securely backed up, irrespective of the backup environment.
That, I think, Catweazel, is a kind of missionary zeal when you ignore the OP; What sends noobs running back to Windows?, ie the OP is not; What sends noobs running back to Windows and Linux.?

For most noobs, it's either Windows or MacOS or Linux for a desktop OS. It's one or the other, not a combination of two or three OS'es. For some non-noobs or non-advanced-users as well.

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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by catweazel » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:57 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:45 am
That, I think, Catweazel, is a kind of missionary zeal
There's a echo in here.
michael louwe wrote: when you ignore the OP; What sends noobs running back to Windows?, ie the OP is not; What sends noobs running back to Windows and Linux.?
Where did I say that newcomers run back to linux?
For most noobs, it's either Windows or MacOS or Linux for a desktop OS. It's one or the other, not a combination of two or three OS'es. For some non-noobs or non-advanced-users as well.
Where did I say otherwise?
Last edited by catweazel on Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sends noobs running back to Windows?

Post by Moem » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:57 am

michael louwe wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:30 am
The topic is about noobs. Installing an OS is beyond most noobs. You are going off-topic when you try to disparage the Windows installation process as being worse than Linux.
It's a chat topic, we're not that strict here. You don't need to worry about it. Just leave the modding to the mods. 8)
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