Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

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mediclaser
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Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by mediclaser » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:55 am

Since I did not get any reply to my follow up question in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=275647&start=20
I'm starting a new one to avoid creating unnecessary work for the moderators.

I'm still a beginner in Linux but planning on eventually migrating all machines at work from Windows to Linux. It is important for me to learn as much as I can. I thought I was learning the correct way until these posts:
gm10 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:49 pm
mediclaser wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:46 pm
gm10 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:45 am
Did you submit a bug report to Ubuntu....
This is the reason why LMDE is getting more attractive to me. The main edition Linux Mint stability depends on Ubuntu.
LMDE stability depends on Debian.

All of Linux stability depends on Linus.

Same difference.
gm10 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:58 pm
mediclaser wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:48 pm
By going straight to Debian, you only deal with Debian bugs. But with Ubuntu, you deal with Debian bugs + Ubuntu bugs.
Then cut out the middle-man, if you get your kernels from https://www.kernel.org/ you don't have third-party bugs at all. Nor their fixes, of course.
...

I never got a reply back after these:
mediclaser wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:47 am
Are you saying the kernel is the only module prone to bugs, and if I get it directly from there Linux Mint would not be affected by bugs in Ubuntu (even though it's based on Ubuntu)? Please educate me.
mediclaser wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:52 am
catweazel wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:48 am
gm10 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:17 am


I could have put more effort into that one, I know. :)
Oh, not you. @mediclaser ;->
Please refer to my question above. If my argument sounded like what you describe, it's probably because of my limited knowledge as a Linux beginner.
The forum members who ridiculed my posts without educating me never replied back to my followup questions, so I'm here hoping to get the answer from other experienced members. Can you guys explain why my assumption about Debian vs Ubuntu base was wrong?
Last edited by mediclaser on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:08 pm

mediclaser wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:55 am
Since I did not get any reply to my follow up question in the thread: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=275647&start=20
I'm starting a new one to avoid creating unnecessary work for the moderators.

I'm still a beginner in Linux but planning on eventually migrating all machines at work from Windows to Linux. It is important for me to learn as much as I can. I
thought I was learning the correct way until these posts:

[...]

The forum members who ridiculed my posts without educating me never replied back to my followup questions, so I'm here hoping to get the answer from other experienced members. Can you guys explain why my assumption about Debian vs Ubuntu base was wrong?
You posted in somebody else's rant thread about kernels and your statement was basically Ubuntu=bad and Debian=good. I never ridiculed you but if there was a genuine question in there I'm still no seeing it. If you want an actual suggestion then I'll state the obvious: If you don't like a distribution's immediate or upstream maintainer (e.g. upstream Ubuntu for Linux Mint) then choose a different distribution (e.g. LMDE if you like Debian), simple as that.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm

would you be able to fine tune your question so i can better understand what exactly is meant by "Debian vs Ubuntu base" the reason i ask this is because Ubuntu IS a Debian derivative and therefore is basically debian based...Ubuntu was put together by its parent company, Cononical, for the purpose of popularising and polishing Linux....linux mint in all its flavours as well as many other distros are forked off from there where they then add or subtract from that base and add their own Ui, themes, wallpapers, software managers, etc...hope this much is of help...DAMIEN
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mediclaser
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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base

Post by mediclaser » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:57 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:18 pm
would you be able to fine tune your question so i can better understand what exactly is meant by "Debian vs Ubuntu base" the reason i ask this is because Ubuntu IS a Debian derivative and therefore is basically debian based...Ubuntu was put together by its parent company, Cononical, for the purpose of popularising and polishing Linux....linux mint in all its flavours as well as many other distros are forked off from there where they then add or subtract from that base and add their own Ui, themes, wallpapers, software managers, etc...hope this much is of help...DAMIEN
I'm more concerned about the amount of bugs to worry about. My idea (which I want to know if correct or wrong) is something like:
Debian base = Debian bugs only
Ubuntu base = Debian bugs + Ubuntu bugs (because Ubuntu is based on Debian)

This idea came about because experienced people puts blame on Ubuntu every time a kernel bug is brought up. I never said nor implied that "Ubuntu=bad and Debian=good". I'm more interested in correctly understanding the introduction of bugs. I did not get a reply when I tried to clarify a suggestion by the experienced user "if you get your kernels from https://www.kernel.org/ you don't have third-party bugs at all".

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chrisuk
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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base

Post by chrisuk » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:58 pm

I'm not really sure what you're asking either, but maybe an explanation of some of what goes on behind the scenes will be useful - it's aimed at Debian developers, but you might find some of it useful, and it's "from the horses mouth", so to speak:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu/ForDebia ... #Licensing
Chris

Manjaro MATE - MX Linux - LMDE MATE

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:15 pm

mediclaser wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:57 pm
I'm more concerned about the amount of bugs to worry about. My idea (which I want to know if correct or wrong) is something like:
Debian base = Debian bugs only
Ubuntu base = Debian bugs + Ubuntu bugs (because Ubuntu is based on Debian)
I already answered that in the original thread though. If you cut out the middle-man you don't get their bugs, but also not their fixes. It's not like Canonical is working on creating bugs. The bugs are already their, Canonical's work is trying to make sure they don't reach you and/or that the proper fixes reach you should a bug make it through..

Canonical is taking the Debian package base for Ubuntu, but neither of those actually produce most of the software, they just maintain it. So the bugs typically get created by the software's creator., the maintainer signs responsible for applying the fixes as they get released by the creator, or to provide their own fixes where necessary. So if anything I'd say the more eyes that look at it, the better.
Last edited by gm10 on Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:19 pm

the only thing i can tell you mediclaser is it does not matter which OS you eventually decide to use, they ALL have bugs...nothing made by the hand of man is going to be perfect...windows has bugs (as well as huge hours long updates), macs have bugs, linux has bugs,...ive used them all...linux mint has THE one advantage over all of them...that would be this forum that has MANY active members that will give answers, to the best of our abilities...you just do not get that from any of the other forums, let alone trying to fix a windows bug...so in the end, its up to you to be realistic about "bugs"...no one here has a crystal ball to guess or predict which entity is going to have the most or least bugs to mitigate...its all luck of the draw and much depends on what additional software you download, especially from PPAs that can create conflicts etc., tweaks you might make etc...no 2 systems are alike therefore i might not have a "bug" but you may, depending on your systems configuration, hardware, software, etc...DAMIEN

ps...i will deal with bugs all day long rather than, viruses, malware, scamware, scareware, ransomeware, etc.
ORDO AB CHAO

mediclaser
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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by mediclaser » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:17 pm

Thanks for all those replies. So, when people recommend LMDE for server use instead of the main edition Mint, it's not about stability...right? Is it more about the allocation of system resources?

How about the suggestion to me to get the kernel directly from https://www.kernel.org/? Can you guys point me to the tutorials on how to do that (software update configuration)? Any caveats?

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by gm10 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:41 pm

mediclaser wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:17 pm
Thanks for all those replies. So, when people recommend LMDE for server use instead of the main edition Mint, it's not about stability...right? Is it more about the allocation of system resources?
No, it's about stability. LMDE is based on Debian stable repositories, which uses older software versions that have been around for a long time, whereas Mint/Ubuntu are based on Debian testing and unstable repositories. The result is that LMDE gets few updates because the software base is more mature, whereas Mint gets a lot of patches early in the release cycle because bugs are still getting discovered.
mediclaser wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:17 pm
How about the suggestion to me to get the kernel directly from https://www.kernel.org/? Can you guys point me to the tutorials on how to do that (software update configuration)? Any caveats?
I don't actually suggest that for practical use, stick to the kernels provided by your distribution unless you have a specific problem with those.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by JosephM » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:16 am

No, it's about stability. LMDE is based on Debian stable repositories, which uses older software versions that have been around for a long time
Actually this isn't always true. It is for the current LMDE3 release but when LMDE2 was released it actually had a newer package base than mainstream Mint did at the time. It's actually just a matter of timing from release to release. If LMDE4 were to come out before Mint20. LMDE4 would actually have newer software.

If the question is about stability between the two, there is no answer. They are just different. It depends on how you use your system. You may hit bug A in LMDE. That bug might be fixed in main Mint but it might have introduced bug B. Some people will say they find one more stable than the other but that's because they probably just aren't hitting this or that bug depending on how they use their machine.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:21 am

JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:16 am
No, it's about stability. LMDE is based on Debian stable repositories, which uses older software versions that have been around for a long time
Actually this isn't always true. It is for the current LMDE3 release but when LMDE2 was released it actually had a newer package base than mainstream Mint did at the time. It's actually just a matter of timing from release to release. If LMDE4 were to come out before Mint20. LMDE4 would actually have newer software.
Well, LMDE was based on testing, LMDE2 was based on testing but shortly before the roll-over to stable, and LMDE3 is based on stable right away. So my understanding is that you guys want the stable package base these days rather than the "excitement" of testing that the old LMDE download page still spoke about. Ubuntu, on the other hand, is always based on testing and unstable at the time of their release.

So with release cycles about 2 years for both but Ubuntu/Mint having point releases I think you'll be hard pressed to have LMDE4 in front of Mint 20 as long as you stick to stable, no? Even if you release LMDE4 in a year when buster becomes stable then all you'll have done is catch up with Mint 19.x at the time.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by JosephM » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:01 am

Well, LMDE was based on testing, LMDE2 was based on testing but shortly before the roll-over to stable
LMDE2 was based on Debian stable. We may have started working on it before Jessie was officially released but I'm pretty sure it was already frozen.
Even if you release LMDE4 in a year when buster becomes stable then all you'll have done is catch up with Mint 19.x at the time.
This isn't true. That's what happened with LMDE2. A perfect example that everyone knows is gnome-shell. Currently in Mint19 it's at version 3.28. In Debian Buster it definitely won't be. More likely something like 3.32. Along with all the lower level libraries it's built on.

A perfect example when LMDE2 was released was Gtk3. It was 3.10 in Mint at the time. Debian Jessie was 3.14. Two versions newer. I remember this quite well because we had to maintain two branches of our themes. LMDE doesn't really seem to have the set sort of schedule that Mint has, so who knows when the Buster based version could be released. It could very well be that Mint 20 comes first and is a newer base. The point was that your assumption wasn't quite correct to someone who doesn't really understand how this works :)
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:32 am

JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:01 am
Well, LMDE was based on testing, LMDE2 was based on testing but shortly before the roll-over to stable
LMDE2 was based on Debian stable. We may have started working on it before Jessie was officially released but I'm pretty sure it was already frozen.
LMDE2 beta was over a month before freeze, you released not quite 4 weeks before the roll-over.
JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:01 am
Even if you release LMDE4 in a year when buster becomes stable then all you'll have done is catch up with Mint 19.x at the time.
This isn't true. That's what happened with LMDE2. A perfect example that everyone knows is gnome-shell. Currently in Mint19 it's at version 3.28. In Debian Buster it definitely won't be. More likely something like 3.32. Along with all the lower level libraries it's built on.
Well, hence 19.x, depends on the point releases. Buster is currently also still at 3.28, while Cosmic is at 3.29 with parts of 3.30 merged. Anyway, I'll grant you that if you were to do a super early LMDE2-style release again and Buster sees a lot of patches coming in due to the end of cycle rush then maybe you'll out-version Ubuntu on some packets for a little while.
JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:01 am
The point was that your assumption wasn't quite correct to someone who doesn't really understand how this works :)
I think it's good we had this little side-discussion to put my sweeping statements into context. ;)

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by JosephM » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:23 am

LMDE2 beta was over a month before freeze, you released not quite 4 weeks before the roll-over.
Fair enough. Not the first time my memory hasn't served me :) The intention was always to be based on Stable Jessie though. My original point still holds true. Your assertion that LMDE is an older package base than Mint isn't always true. It just depends on when we happen to get to it.
Well, hence 19.x, depends on the point releases. Buster is currently also still at 3.28, while Cosmic is at 3.29 with parts of 3.30 merged. Anyway, I'll grant you that if you were to do a super early LMDE2-style release again and Buster sees a lot of patches coming in due to the end of cycle rush then maybe you'll out-version Ubuntu on some packets for a little while.
This is where you are losing me. Cosmic is getting shell 3.30 early because they will want it for final release. They still have time and will want to test with it. Buster would get 3.30 after it's actually released. Mint19 and any of it's point releases with NEVER get 3.30. So a year from now if we do LMDE4 based on Buster it would have 3.30 or 3.32 depending on the schedule. Mint19 will have 3.28 for the next two years.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:46 am

JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:23 am
This is where you are losing me. Cosmic is getting shell 3.30 early because they will want it for final release. They still have time and will want to test with it. Buster would get 3.30 after it's actually released. Mint19 and any of it's point releases with NEVER get 3.30. So a year from now if we do LMDE4 based on Buster it would have 3.30 or 3.32 depending on the schedule. Mint19 will have 3.28 for the next two years.
In that case the mistake is entirely mine. For some reason I had always been assuming the Mint point releases were taking from the Ubuntu non-LTS releases, basically like Ubuntu release upgrades, but I never really looked into it and apparently I was complete wrong. My apologies for causing confusion. /hangs head in shame

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by JosephM » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:11 am

gm10 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:46 am
JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:23 am
This is where you are losing me. Cosmic is getting shell 3.30 early because they will want it for final release. They still have time and will want to test with it. Buster would get 3.30 after it's actually released. Mint19 and any of it's point releases with NEVER get 3.30. So a year from now if we do LMDE4 based on Buster it would have 3.30 or 3.32 depending on the schedule. Mint19 will have 3.28 for the next two years.
In that case the mistake is entirely mine. For some reason I had always been assuming the Mint point releases were taking from the Ubuntu non-LTS releases, basically like Ubuntu release upgrades, but I never really looked into it and apparently I was complete wrong. My apologies for causing confusion. /hangs head in shame
No worries. I was starting to get the idea that was your thinking. Mint used to work that way. We would release Mint13, 14, 15 based on Ubuntu 12.04, 12.10, 13.04 respectively. This proved to be problematic for us. The constant six month breakage and changes in things we rely heavily on, like gtk, meant we spent more time fixing things that were broken by upstream changes than working on actually improving our own tools. With Mint17 the decision was made to base only on LTS bases with the point releases being us iterating our own stuff on top of that base. That's one of the reasons we now have things like flatpak support. While a stable base is great in many ways, the one downside is the lack of newer versions of applications. Things like flatpak allow you to get both.

I still see people all the time saying LMDE is a rolling release. It hasn't been for a long time. Even with LMDE1 it was based on Debian testing but was updated via Update packs. The reasoning behind going with stable there was pretty much the same as it was for Mint main.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by gm10 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:19 am

JosephM wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:11 am
I still see people all the time saying LMDE is a rolling release. It hasn't been for a long time. Even with LMDE1 it was based on Debian testing but was updated via Update packs. The reasoning behind going with stable there was pretty much the same as it was for Mint main.
Yes, I knew for LMDE, I just had the wrong idea for (current) Mint, that's where my original statement about package base and stability came from. Thanks for the setting me straight. Hopefully not just useful for me.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by michael louwe » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:29 am

mediclaser wrote:.
.
About Ubuntu kernels vs upstream/mainline Linux kernel from Linus Torvald(= kernel.org), please refer to ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/MainlineBuilds
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Dev/KernelPatches
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam

So, AFAIK, there are the root/upstream/mainline Linux kernel, and derivative/downstream Debian kernel and ArchLinux kernel, and further-downstream Ubuntu kernel, Android kernel, etc. All of these kernels are different, though similar. Linux users should stick to their distro's kernels, especially for updating support, except when the latest upstream Linux kernel is needed to be installed, eg for support of the latest hardware like the 8th-gen CPUs, the upstream Linux kernel 4.17 or higher is needed, which is not yet available in Ubuntu 18.04/LM 19(= at Ubuntu kernel 4.15 only).
....... Bear in mind that the upstream Linux kernel from kernel.org/Linus is not a Linux distro, per se.

LM is based on Ubuntu kernel for support. Sometimes, bugs can be introduced by LM because of different implementation of update support, ie Ubuntu and LM have different Update Management programs, eg ...
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=272263&p=1490119#p1490119 (Re: Linux Mint 19 is booting for a very long time)
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=272720&p=1491976#p1491976
viewtopic.php?t=273058 (<FIXED> Installing Linux Mint 19 from ISO, please read, EFI installs only)

LM developers benefit from all the work done by Ubuntu developers but risk more bugs being introduced into LM. These bugs in LM are usually fixable. If you want less bugs as a newbie, it's better to stick to Ubuntu.
....... Debian or ArchLinux is not very user-friendly to the average users or newbies = require some tech chops to run.
Last edited by michael louwe on Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:35 am

OK guys...i am beginning to see something here...a sinple question about bugs from the OP...now it sounds like a complicated high school debating society with a lot of technicality built in...you are dealing with a newbie OP who is just getting his feet wet here...there is another thread post about what is driving newbies away from linux and back to windows...i think i just read just how this is accomplished...i re-read all your answers three times before writing this...please do the same and see if you may see an element of truth here...in the US we call it Keep It Simple...put the KISS on the answers...DAMIEN
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Re: Debian vs Ubuntu base bugs

Post by JosephM » Sat Aug 18, 2018 12:55 pm

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:35 am
OK guys...i am beginning to see something here...a sinple question about bugs from the OP...now it sounds like a complicated high school debating society with a lot of technicality built in...you are dealing with a newbie OP who is just getting his feet wet here...there is another thread post about what is driving newbies away from linux and back to windows...i think i just read just how this is accomplished...i re-read all your answers three times before writing this...please do the same and see if you may see an element of truth here...in the US we call it Keep It Simple...put the KISS on the answers...DAMIEN
You're obviously entitled to your opinion but I don't agree. The OP was being misinformed. An honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. In your opinion we should just allow them to stay misinformed so that they will continue to think that and spread it to other users? You see that quite a bit here on these forums. That doesn't help anyone. The original question doesn't have that straightforward of an answer. While I would always recommend Mint main to a new user over LMDE it has nothing to do with number of bugs. One is not buggier than the other. I would do so for ease of use.
When I give opinions, they are my own. Not necessarily those of any other Linux Mint developer or the Linux Mint project as a whole.

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