‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

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‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Flemur » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:34 pm

https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/03/five- ... s-or-else/
"A pact of five nation states dedicated to a global “collect it all” surveillance mission has issued a memo calling on their governments to demand tech companies build backdoor access to their users’ encrypted data — or face measures to force companies to comply.

The international pact — the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, known as the so-called “Five Eyes” group of nations — quietly issued the memo last week demanding that providers “create customized solutions, tailored to their individual system architectures that are capable of meeting lawful access requirements.”
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:31 pm

In the first place, I expect the EFF to be all over this, along with other groups.

As far as legal compliance in the U.S. is concerned, so far as I know no company can be compelled to do this in this particular fashion. If there was one particular individual (or one particular group of individuals) being gone after, due process would surely apply, meaning there is no carte blanche authority here; it would derive from a court order. Whether that is a regular court or a FISA court, etc., so far as I know mass surveillance of this type is just not legal here.

I don't believe citizens in some other countries (England in particular) have equivalent protections.

Both Google and Apple have pushed back against this sort of encroachment before, with Apple being especially publicly vocal about it. It also seems to me that then pre-candidate Donald Trump and others expressed outrage (this was from what I could tell at the time pretty much exactly along party lines) and I expect they would do so again if it came to it. The arguments expressed then still hold water now.

The U.S.'s upcoming midterm election cycle and our major election cycle still in the offing for 2020 are very likely going to have a major impact on how we look at and decide how to handle such matters.


For anyone here who does not already know, I would highly advise you to look to such sources as the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the Free Software Foundation, Richard Stallman, 2600, the ACLU, and other sources to begin the process of informing yourself about what's going on, who the players are, and what's at stake. From there, you should go where the trail to more information and knowledge leads, always of course being sure to think critically and fact check along the way.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by all41 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:59 pm

I expect the EFF to be all over this
That will scare them--for sure.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by lsemmens » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 pm

Surely, all that would do is drive developers off shore. It is a process doomed to failure. Look at the Linux world and the protections built in to it.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:40 pm

the Australian Fed Gov't is the one to watch:
"Australia wants tech companies to let cops 'n' snoops see messages without backdoors"
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/06/0 ... oor_plans/
and
"New laws will be unveiled today aimed at helping the nation's spy agencies and police monitor and prevent criminal activity through phones and the internet."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-14/t ... e/10114534
and
"The Australian government wants tech companies to reveal encrypted messages"
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/the- ... ges-2017-7
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by BG405 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:04 am

Hmmm. I don't use encryption for anything other than password storage , online banking and obviously payments for online purchases. Of those three, NONE are the business of anyone else apart from me, or, in the latter two, myself and the other party involved. If those supposedly secure transactions are compromised, there is no viable choice left but to cease using them, which IMHO would be crippling in today's world.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:11 am

‘Five Eyes’ Nations Quietly Demand Government Access to Encrypted Data:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/us/p ... -data.html
The threat was issued last week by the United States, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada,
- the so-called Five Eyes nations that broadly share intelligence.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by jimallyn » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:47 am

Maybe we should all encrypt everything. How long do you think it will be before they start torturing people to get the password to their encrypted stuff?
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Faust » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:05 am

jimallyn wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:47 am
Maybe we should all encrypt everything. How long do you think it will be before they start torturing people to get the password to their encrypted stuff?
That notion has been around for some time in " certain circles "
It's known as "Rubber-Hose Cryptanalysis"

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/ ... e_cry.html

But let's not get too upset about it .
It's keeping us all safe from the bogeyman ..... many governments say so , so it must be true .... right ?
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by BG405 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:49 pm

How about email encryption via the providers people use?

I don't encrypt emails either (nothing sensitive enough in them to warrant it) & even when I wanted to send an email to a police officer I know, I asked "Is it OK to send this plain, or should I use some sort of encryption?" and his response was along the lines of "Don't bother, it's highly unlikely anyone will intercept it & if they do, it won't be of any use to them".

If it were sensitive info rather than personal (e.g. involved in a case, investigation or whatever) it may be different. BTW I did say I'm using Linux & have no antivirus software installed. He did also say that he doesn't know a lot about computers, to be fair.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by KBD47 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:52 pm

Because, you know, government workers and agencies are completely reliable, above reproach, would never accept a bribe, or otherwise possibly become corruptible or misuse such control. /s

When any government gets control of encryption that encryption is DOA--completely useless.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by richyrich » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:02 pm

Faust wrote:...many governments say so , so it must be true .... right ?
...or are they just starting to put this out there into the public's consiousness before releasing full disclosure; that they have had full access for quite a while now . . ?

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:31 pm

The topic of encrypted communication is still a sore subject, because there is no one standard. It's like after the movie Deliverance came out, everybody and their brother got a banjo and started to learn to play them, but there were no tuning standards. I'm given to understand that when there were festivals, the various folks couldn't play with each other easily because everyone was using a different tuning.

I chose Tutanota and Signal. Some friends of mine use WhatsApp, so I have to have it installed. Signal is decent enough as a straight SMS/MMS app so I keep it around, but none of my friends or contacts use (or deliberately use) any encrypted media, and when I've talked about it with them, they clearly don't have the slightest interest.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by jimallyn » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:51 pm

Portreve wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:31 pm
I chose Tutanota and Signal. Some friends of mine use WhatsApp
I have read several articles that say there are potential problems with WhatsApp (nope, didn't bookmark them). But I haven't read anything bad about Signal.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am

jimallyn wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:51 pm
Portreve wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:31 pm
I chose Tutanota and Signal. Some friends of mine use WhatsApp
I have read several articles that say there are potential problems with WhatsApp (nope, didn't bookmark them). But I haven't read anything bad about Signal.
I'm certain most of us know about that to which you refer. I don't necessarily mind using WhatsApp, but as it is now owned by Facebook, there is the (at least theoretical) possibility they could compromise it in some way.

The biggest problem as I see it is in overcoming IDKA and IDGAF intellectual positions held by "most" people. If I were to take a hard-line “I'm only available via Signal and Tutanota (or, to be fair, ProtonMail, etc.)” stance, it's 99.999% certain I'd never be able to communicate with anybody. If "nobody" from the "typical person on the street" population can be bothered to know anything or care about anything related to security (or politics, etc.) how is any progress to be made?
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Faust » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:36 am

Portreve wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am
If I were to take a hard-line “I'm only available via Signal and Tutanota (or, to be fair, ProtonMail, etc.)” stance, it's 99.999% certain I'd never be able to communicate with anybody. .......
Bang !
You've hit the nail on the head .

There's a bunch of corporate entities that I don't want anywhere near my life .
Top of the " dirty dogs " list are Google , M$ ( and by extension , Skype ) , and Facebook ( and therefore WhatsApp )

Things may change , but it will be slow progress ..... spreading the word , education , increasing awareness ?

Edit - no disrespect intended to dirty dogs in general ... :lol:
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by ud6 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:38 am

For me problem isn't microsoft and other computing people, but governments and financial institutions. These institutions control our lives.. whether we can get a mortgage or car, if we are a terrorist threat, if we can leave or enter a certain country, whether we are on a watch list. An australian woman wrote a book on AI and how a poor algorithm denied her a loan even though she was an ideal person to receive one. Basically we are placed in categories and through correlation (rather than something we have actually done) we can be denied access to services of even fair treatment under the law (at risk register). With large amounts of data AI will increasingly be used to process us, and very few (or even no) people will know if that is just and fair or if we are a victim of generalisation or even a faulty alogrithm. Another example is road building in the UK: many years ago they used GIS to decide where to build new roads. Protected Natural Areas had been classified as having 'zero' value as they believed you shouldn't build a road on them. But indeed, it was the opposite of what it should have been, so the algorithm suggested all the new bypasses to go through natural and protected areas.

Thus, for me the problem of data collection is that once they have classified me (usually incorrectly) my opportunities in life will be dictated by a system that has access to this information. Even with advertising, I'll get adverts directed to who they think I am. Currently it is still quite primitive (if I buy an electric guitar, they'll advertise electric guitars to me, though probably I don't want another cos I already have one!) but it will get more sophisticated and increasingly difficult to determine how these decisions about our life are being made.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:01 pm

ud6 wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:38 am
An australian woman wrote a book on AI and how a poor algorithm denied her a loan even though she was an ideal person to receive one. Basically we are placed in categories and through correlation (rather than something we have actually done) we can be denied access to services of even fair treatment under the law (at risk register).
As we should all know, correlation ≠ causation. Evidently someone forgot to tell the banking world. :shock:
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by ud6 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 am

Portreve wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:01 pm
As we should all know, correlation ≠ causation. Evidently someone forgot to tell the banking world. :shock:
Unfortunately in modern world seems classification of people is more important than actions and evidence.. the sad consequence of identity politics. Am I a geek just because I use Linux? Possibly :lol: :lol:

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:45 am

ud6 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 am
Unfortunately in modern world seems classification of people is more important than actions and evidence.. the sad consequence of identity politics. Am I a geek just because I use Linux? Possibly :lol: :lol:
Much of my life — working or otherwise — has felt like I never had both feet in whatever I was doing or the context of where I was at. That's not to say I'm not a geek or a nerd; it's just that I've always had a for somewhere else. I don't feel like I've ever truly for in anywhere, at least not completely. This is not by choice, I assure you.
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