‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:27 am

Australia setting itself up as Five Eyes' weakest link:
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australi ... ink-512984
Australia’s proposed decryption laws would make it the “weakest link” in the Five Eyes alliance
and therefore a “funnel” for international requests for data, the Law Council of Australia has warned. .. . .

Government appears intent on fast-tracking encryption bill:
https://www.computerworld.com.au/articl ... tion-bill/
The provisions in the bill that have drawn the most concern from civil liberties organisations and the tech industry are those that would introduce new requirements for service providers to cooperate with investigations. In some cases, tech companies could be compelled to build entirely new capabilities sought by police or intelligence agencies. . . . .
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by ud6 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:44 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:45 am
ud6 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:24 am
Unfortunately in modern world seems classification of people is more important than actions and evidence.. the sad consequence of identity politics. Am I a geek just because I use Linux? Possibly :lol: :lol:
Much of my life — working or otherwise — has felt like I never had both feet in whatever I was doing or the context of where I was at. That's not to say I'm not a geek or a nerd; it's just that I've always had a for somewhere else. I don't feel like I've ever truly for in anywhere, at least not completely. This is not by choice, I assure you.
+1 ... I think that comes from a desire for constant stimulation - as soon as we get close to being great at something, we get bored and need to do something else :lol: I'm pretty good at so many things, and have experience in so much stuff, but my life never really progresses too far because I can't do the drudgery to just focus on one thing for five years and do it well :lol: :lol:

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:26 pm

ud6 wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:44 am
+1 ... I think that comes from a desire for constant stimulation - as soon as we get close to being great at something, we get bored and need to do something else :lol: I'm pretty good at so many things, and have experience in so much stuff, but my life never really progresses too far because I can't do the drudgery to just focus on one thing for five years and do it well :lol: :lol:
No, not really. At least, not for me. I have a broad swath of both knowledge and interests, and so when I worked for Sony tech support, I was one of the few non-gamers. When I worked for Home Depot, I was the technology nerd and sci-fi geek. When I worked for local newspapers, printshops, and magazines as a desktop publisher, I was the system admin and often the technology purchase consultant to management. Etc., etc.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:30 pm

Australia's surveillance laws could damage internet security globally, overseas critics say:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018 ... on=science
Australia's new technology surveillance laws are drawing increasing scrutiny from international privacy groups,
and technology companies. .. ..

Further more - - NZ customs can now demand phone or laptop passwords:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/nz-custom ... passwords/
this now bring the NZ arm of the Five Eyes Group, more into line,
with the scenario that is already current ant the US Border Controls.

and the Latest Fight Back:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/australia ... ting-bill/
Australian industry and tech groups unite to fight encryption-busting Bill . . .
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by GS3 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm

Anyone remember the Clipper Chip? That went nowhere fast.

When you enter the UK there are signs letting you know you are under the obligation to reveal passwords to any computer or other device. Refusing will land you in jail. I believe it is even stricter in France.
Faust wrote:
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It's known as "Rubber-Hose Cryptanalysis"
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by BG405 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:02 pm

GS3 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm
When you enter the UK there are signs letting you know you are under the obligation to reveal passwords to any computer or other device. Refusing will land you in jail.
That's interesting, but not all that surprising in this age. I've not been abroad for a few years now so haven't seen those; assume they are a relatively recent occurrence.
GS3 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm
I believe it is even stricter in France.
Not sure how, unless they still have the death penalty :mrgreen:
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Moem » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:18 pm

GS3 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:56 pm
When you enter the UK there are signs letting you know you are under the obligation to reveal passwords to any computer or other device. Refusing will land you in jail. I believe it is even stricter in France.
Is that a new thing? I've never seen such signs on any of my visits. Can you point me to a source for that information?
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by GS3 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:37 pm

Traveler who refused to give device passwords to police found guilty of obstruction in UK court

In France until 1999 use of any kind of encryption required previous government permit (!) Rules were relaxed somewhat but now France and Germany are trying to implement the obligation of depositing encryption keys with a third party. Like the Clipper chip all this is trying to contain the inevitable.

As a frequent traveler I would recommend to not carry sensitive information when traveling or crossing borders. Better have the information encrypted on some server and access it remotely via VPN. That obviates any questions at the moment of entry and any risk of losing the information if the device is lost or confiscated. There are quite a few cases at US and UK borders of travelers having their laptops or other devices confiscated.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by GS3 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:45 pm

Moem wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:18 pm
Is that a new thing? I've never seen such signs on any of my visits. Can you point me to a source for that information?
I have seen the signs myself at Gatwick and Stanstead.
UK police can now force you to reveal decryption keys - Refuseniks face jail time

In America the law is not so clear but, still, as they say, they can't make you cooperate but they can make you sorry you didn't do it. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... ds/516315/ And they will.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by DAMIEN1307 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:54 pm

just another reason why i never travel with a computer and have never used or owned a "smart phone" and just use a "stupid phone" that doesnt even have a camera.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by GS3 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:55 pm

"A pact of five nation states dedicated to a global “collect it all” surveillance mission has issued a memo calling on their governments to demand tech companies build backdoor access to their users’ encrypted data — or face measures to force companies to comply.
lsemmens wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:28 pm
Surely, all that would do is drive developers off shore. It is a process doomed to failure. Look at the Linux world and the protections built in to it.
Yup. It is very nearsighted. Remember when exporting PGP was illegal and the US Government want to impose the Clipper chip? It failed miserably. Various governments have been known to do industrial spying in favor of their own corporations. Powerful multinational corporations will not keep information where they know it will be looked at by others.

Taking your laptop into the US? Be sure to hide all your data first

Neutral countries like Switzerland or Sweden are already making money hosting data servers which are believed to be more secure than those located in other parts of Europe or North America.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Moem » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:00 pm

Well, it's good to know.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 am

this one is still evolving, as the Australian Fed Gov't continues to push it's 'world-first laws'
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-04/ ... d/10580208
Australia's Government wants to pass world-first laws:
- that would force technology companies to help police access encrypted messages.
they want this Proposed Bill to be passed before the Fed Gov't adjourns for the Christmas Break ..

it won't be the 1st time that Australia has lead the world, in some brave, new adventure.
- - other countries Will Follow - - if this Law is Successful.

Edit: the Fed Gov't opposition has withdrawn it's amendments:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-06/ ... e/10591944
and
https://nz.yahoo.com/finance/news/austr ... 46821.html
The laws mean police can request technology companies to build in features that would give access to encrypted communications.
& the Fed Gov't can now claim that the legislation will have enhanced Australian safety. ,..

the Fed Gov't is of claiming, of course, that the Law is Balanced:
https://www.itwire.com/government-tech- ... -tech.html
- so that spy agencies could get back on an equal footing with technology firms and have a big stick with which to beat them whenever they want.

There is one more aspect to this whole episode that we have just gone through:
- The Australian laws will be used by spy agencies from the other Five Eyes countries,,
— the US, the UK, Canada and New Zealand — under the intelligence-sharing agreements that exist between them.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Mage of Maple » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:04 pm

This is all so bizarre to me... Not that the governments WANT to do this but that they are stupid enough to think this is viable...

Building a "back door" into encryption basically weakens the encryption to the point of being practically useless. I know of no noteworthy cryptologist who has stated that they believe it is even possible to have strong encryption (hard to break) with a universal key. So, basically, when this is implemented, there is no more strong encryption. At that point, how the hell is the modern economy supposed to function? There can be no more online banking or commerce, obviously. Big corporations all have distributed data warehouses for disaster recovery, etc. With no encrypted communications, no more distributed storage. And so on. I expect colossal stupidity from government but this surprises even me. I would think the mega-banks and other mega-corps would see the threat and step in (they do, after all, OWN the politicians.)
Last edited by Mage of Maple on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by rene » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:50 pm

Mage of Maple wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:04 pm
I expect colossal stupidity from government but this surprises even me.
I see it as the obvious result of a now in the Western world between one and two centuries old major specialization-trend haven gotten out of hand. In the sense of being alpha educated almost guaranteeing you know little to nothing from beta and gamma subjects and any permutation thereof; no more homo universalis. In the same manner as engineers being in overwhelming majority career-engineers, politicians are by now in overwhelming majority career-politicians, who however in our increasingly technological world increasingly often have to decide on matters they simply know nothing of. They'll call on experts, but in the end even that input tends to be judged politically; through compromises and political exchanges rather than the hard yes-or-no science and technology can entail; often does entail.

Anyone feel free to even if you'd agree not be so sure about a solution. I'm rather convinced that education reform is a definite part of it but as to that being enough, I wouldn't be so sure.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Pierre » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:05 am

now the fun starts- the recriminations:
https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/apos- ... 44621.html
'You bunch of idiots': Australia's tech industry savages Labor for backing the government's encryption bill'.
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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Charlie » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:02 am

GS3 wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:37 pm
Traveler who refused to give device passwords to police found guilty of obstruction in UK court

In France until 1999 use of any kind of encryption required previous government permit (!) Rules were relaxed somewhat but now France and Germany are trying to implement the obligation of depositing encryption keys with a third party. Like the Clipper chip all this is trying to contain the inevitable.

As a frequent traveler I would recommend to not carry sensitive information when traveling or crossing borders. Better have the information encrypted on some server and access it remotely via VPN. That obviates any questions at the moment of entry and any risk of losing the information if the device is lost or confiscated. There are quite a few cases at US and UK borders of travelers having their laptops or other devices confiscated.
I'm sure that is the case because a laptop is a great place to put explosives. But what a great excuse to do some spying\industrial espionage.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by MtnDewManiac » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:19 am

Portreve wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:45 am
That's not to say I'm not a geek or a nerd;
You use linux, you chose that avatar image, and selected that quote for the prime spot in your .SIG; I would never accuse you of not being one :lol: .

This topic is... It's a bit of a slippery slope, IMHO.

From time to time, any government will be faced with an issue that more or less requires an "invasion of privacy" episode. One assumes the frequency of such needs will be higher if that government is hated by the primary entities of many other governments (USA), the primary entities of certain governments wish for that government/nation to cease to exist (Israel), et cetera.

Therefore, in the real world - and, again, IMHO - one should separate the privacy issue into two things: "privacy from one's government," and "privacy from everyone/everything else." OF those two sub-issues, the latter is easy (not easy to implement, perhaps, but easy to agree that it's a good and proper thing).

The former, "privacy from one's own government," is the tricky part. Having decided that it is theoretically possible that my government will, upon (hopefully, rare) occasion, have an actual need to cross that privacy barrier... It becomes a question of how to constrain said government, and the people involved with it. If someone is plotting nefarious things against their government, that might be considered to be a "need to know" - but the people investigating them should not be entitled to use any information that they discover to financially enrich themselves if they happen to learn that a company's low-value stock is about to skyrocket due to a soon to be released cure for a disease (to give just one example).

It seems to me that it is far more important - and useful, in practical terms - to find a way to guarantee that neither one's government nor the people in it can act upon any information that they may happen to discover (inadvertently or otherwise) that is not directly relevant to the reason/need for the "investigation," so to speak... than to try to "blanket prevent" that government from being able to perform such investigations in the first place.

I do not know if many will agree with me on this. Some people feel that ALL of their lives should be 100% private from ALL entities. I can understand this attitude and, to be honest, it is one that I used to share. But researching events, both in recent history and, in general stretching back centuries, will show that the world would very likely have become a rather different (and, IMHO, much more terrible) thing if no government had ever had the power to peek into the shadows.

But even if everyone chooses to both see my point here and agree with it... How, exactly, do we constrain the many governments and their many, many people? There may be as many (if not more) examples of governments misusing their power to "pry" as there are examples of governments doing so for the good of their nation, that nation's infrastructure, its citizens, et cetera.

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Re: ‘Five Eyes’ governments call on tech giants to build encryption backdoors — or else

Post by Portreve » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:10 pm

I go into this proposition and subject with the starting assumption that all players are bad actors whose motivations are inherently suspect. Moreover, any back door is automatically potentially exploitable and for that and other reasons is by definition a weakness which in one way or another, whether politically, public policy-wise, or technologically, can cause a problem.

The Valley has already said such things are a very bad idea, for which I give them their due credit.

There is no way I will ever go along with any policy, rule, or regulation which makes it easier (much less one which makes it effort-free) to access my data. I seriously doubt the FOSS community feels any different from me in this regard. They know what's at stake, and they know the history of all of this, and woe betide all of us if they're ever stupid or weak-willed enough to go along with this.
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