[SOLVED] Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

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yangmusa
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[SOLVED] Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by yangmusa »

I’ve been running Ubuntu or Linux Mint since about 2007, on and off. So I thought I was fairly familiar with the update process..

Whether running the update manager, or through the command line, I just let all the updates run and then I got on with whatever I was doing. End of story. Never had any issues or problems, everything just continued to work miraculously!

Fast forward to Fedora’s latest workstation release, 28. They included a lot of power optimization, and I thought I would give it a try since battery life has always been a weak point on my linux laptops. And I did see an immediate improvement in battery life – I haven’t done rigorous testing and I know the battery predictions are iffy, but I seem to be getting 30-60 minutes more at least (Dell Latitude 7370 with 43 WH battery).

The one thing I was not prepared for, and which is close to pushing me back to the warm embrace of Mint, is the Fedora update process. Every Single Update Requires Two Restarts!! Yes, that’s right: first it reboots and installs the update, then it reboots again just to make sure. Updates are frequent, and it’s a time-consuming, disruptive, PITA.

The Fedora team’s reason for doing it this way is that it’s safer – less chance of screwing something up if the system is not running – and some updates don’t run until the system has been rebooted, e.g. kernel updates, some other software.

So finally, here’s my question: have I been using Mint wrong all these years? Should I have been rebooting after every update?
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JerryF
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by JerryF »

To my knowledge, you've been updating correctly. Like you, I don't reboot unless it's a kernel update or a security update.
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trytip
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by trytip »

try laptop-mode-tools and tlp-rdw but one at a time. these are laptop battery saving tools, can't help on how they're used i never use my laptop. before installing make a timeshift snapshot so you can system restore just in case

as for updates if you don't know which updates require rebooting then best to reboot. no-reboot updates are usually browsers, word editors, graphic programs or games
Last edited by trytip on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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yangmusa
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by yangmusa »

trytip wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:59 pm try laptop-mode-tools and tlp-rdw but one at a time. these are laptop battery saving tools, can't help on how they're used i never use my laptop.
Yup, I used those, and powertop too. The improvements in Fedora were on top of what I was able to get in Mint with the usual tools.
gm10

Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by gm10 »

yangmusa wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:44 pm So finally, here’s my question: have I been using Mint wrong all these years? Should I have been rebooting after every update?
Updates to the kernel or any running software/service only take effect after you restart the processes or load the new kernel. A reboot is the best way to achieve that.

If I remember correctly we've got a reboot notification under consideration for Mint. But never a forced reboot, we're not Windows after all.
yangmusa wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:26 pm
trytip wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:59 pm try laptop-mode-tools and tlp-rdw but one at a time. these are laptop battery saving tools, can't help on how they're used i never use my laptop.
Yup, I used those, and powertop too. The improvements in Fedora were on top of what I was able to get in Mint with the usual tools.
Probably mostly a kernel question. 4.17 added a lot of power management improvements, Mint will only get that officially in January when the 4.18 kernels get released as HWE.
Last edited by gm10 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yangmusa
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by yangmusa »

JerryF wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:50 pm To my knowledge, you've been updating correctly. Like you, I don't reboot unless it's a kernel update or a security update.
OK, phew!

Now I need to decide which tradeoff I prefer: slightly shorter battery life in Mint, but less disruptive updates? Or, slightly longer battery life in Fedora, but more distracting updates? :?
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by xenopeek »

If you're using Gnome Software to manage updates on Fedora instead of yum, then yes that program errs on the side of caution the way you described.

The reasoning is that it isn't trivial to detect if an update for a running program would need that program to restart (and even if it's need, how to handle unsaved user documents). Like if the program has a file open that in the update version is no longer present, so would be deleted while the running program is still using it leading to unexpected behavior. That would be avoided if you're not running programs hence installing the updates as Fedora does. For example Firefox updates in recent versions for me have required me to restart Firefox if it was running during an update to it, as trying to open a new tab in the still running Firefox would no longer work ("oops; the tab has crashed").

But that's the extent of it. Most programs aren't affected like this and continue to operate just fine after being updated in place. So at worst you'd have to restart some rare program, like Firefox.

Aside from that, to activate updates to the kernel you have to restart your system (unless you're running a system with live kernel patching installed; not available on Linux Mint).

I'd argue for users that can't make the "hey Firefox no longer works but I just installed an update for it so let's try restarting it" connection it may be the less surprising way to update. It's also a familiar process/nuisance for Windows users. Clearly both ways of handling have their pros and cons.

Shout out to IT Crowd :mrgreen:

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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by JerryF »

yangmusa wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:29 pm ...

OK, phew!

Now I need to decide which tradeoff I prefer: slightly shorter battery life in Mint, but less disruptive updates? Or, slightly longer battery life in Fedora, but more distracting updates? :?
Choices, choices! Recently, I tried Manjaro and it's a nice distro with rolling releases.

Good luck.
yangmusa
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by yangmusa »

JerryF wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:34 pm Choices, choices! Recently, I tried Manjaro and it's a nice distro with rolling releases.
Heh, part of the fun, right? I tried Manjaro on a previous laptop and liked it too. Might give it another shot..
Last edited by xenopeek on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: discussion moved away from Linux Mint so moved topic here
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by Portreve »

Debian is known for not normally requiring users to reboot just because they've installed updates. In fact, I've heard of boxen which haven't been restarted in years, though that's generally servers or desktop users who simply are obsessed with uptime stats.

As a practical matter, I reboot if I've installed a new kernel or if something like hardware drivers are updated. Other than that, I'd hate to have to reboot just because I updated things.
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yangmusa
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Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by yangmusa »

gm10 wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:27 pmProbably mostly a kernel question. 4.17 added a lot of power management improvements, Mint will only get that officially in January when the 4.18 kernels get released as HWE.
For all I know it may also relate to the kernel version, but here is a description of what Fedora changed for the 28 release. As you will see it can reduce power consumption by over 2 watts, depending on the hardware. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/ ... atteryLife

What it amounts to is a significantly better out-of-the-box experience, at least from a battery life perspective. I'm hoping other distros will adopt these changes - the average user shouldn't have to install a bunch of command line tools just to get decent battery life.
gm10

Re: Have I been doing updates wrong all these years?

Post by gm10 »

Interesting, wasn't aware the SATA bus draws that much power.
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