My Opinion

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kemperhills
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My Opinion

Post by kemperhills » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm

Hi guys, been a long time since of was on the forum.

I have been a Windows users since W95 but have become disenchanted with Windows. I have several computers in my office running W7 Pro x64. When Microsoft put out W10 I quickly decided that I was through with Windows. I tried several versions of Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Kubuntu, FreeBSD, etc, etc. I have settled on Linux Mint. One of the main desktops in my office is now running Linux Mint Cinnamon 19.2 x64.

I think it has been a little over a year since I was on the froum because though I could install and use Linux, doing almost anything else was a trial. Now with the end of support for W7, and my refusing to use W10, I have put in the effort to "learn" Linux. And I must say I really like Linux. Heck, I really liked Linux a year a year ago, but for the uninitiated Linux user Linux can be frustrating and confusing. Not to say that Linux is bad in any way, just different in many ways from Windows. But by January 2020 all my desktops will be running Linux.

My choice, Linux Mint Cinnamon or Mate. I had used Cinnamon exclusively until several months ago while reading an article the writer spoke of the Mate desktop and, in his opinion, was better than Cinnamon. So I downloaded Linux Mate and installed it on another desktop.

I, personally, don't see a great deal of difference between Cinnamon and Mate. Their start menus are different, but other than that I don't see any appreciable difference. So for now I am leaning toward the Cinnamon desktop, but will use the Mate desktop in the one computer until I get more knowledgeable about the desktop.

One thing I believe, if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business, or at least diminish Microsoft significantly. I have worked on computer for years and people more and more, seem, to be disenchanted with Microsoft. But I Linux did that they would be Windows :D , wouldn't they. 8)

Anyone want to comment on Cinnamon vs. Mate. :)
Until my retirement, mechanics was my work, when I wanted to relax, my hobby was mechanics. When I was 14 I found a car had an engine, my passion has been mechanics ever since. In retirement I am finding the same passion working on computers.

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Re: My Opinion

Post by RIH » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:49 pm

I think that, unless someone has an old machine with limited resources, choice of Desktop is a very personal issue.
If resources are limited then Mate is a better choice than Cinnamon.

Personally I don't have resource issues & love Cinnamon.
Indeed if Mint was abandoned for some reason then I would be looking only at a new Distribution that would let me continue with Cinnamon.

I must have tried over 100 Distributions & every available Desktop but nothing has come close to moving me away from Mint Cinnamon as my daily driver.

However, if someone else comes on & says that they believe Mate is the bees knees then they are equally right for their circumstances. :D
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Pierre » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:02 pm

the Cinnamon Desktop does actually use more resources than the Mate desktop would do.
& the Cinnamon desktop was designed to be similar to the win-7 style of menu tree,
whereas the Mate menu is more similar to the win-xp style of menu tree.
- - that was quite deliberate, in both desktops.

I've always found it quite fascinating, to watch folks who use either win-8x OR win-10 style of menu tree,
in just how they seem to ignore the 'tiles' in that menu tree & thus any advertising that appears in that menu tree.
- - they don't seem to use many of the relevant programs, that are now, somewhat hidden away, and don't seem to miss them.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Portreve » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:04 pm

Personally, I think Cinnamon occupies a certain sort of "sweet spot" if you will between Classic Mac OS and Mac OS X, and (in the general sense because naturally specific details have changed over the years) Windows where user interface paradigms are concerned. I can't see how anyone with at least half a brain, coming from one of those two disparate backgrounds would be unable to function.

If anything, I think a Mac user would feel at home in many respects because the result of how things work would seem pretty much just like what they experienced previously. For example, in Classic Mac OS and Mac OS X, if you connect a keyboard, mouse, storage medium, etc., there's no "hardware detection" process you have to wait on, nor some formal setting up of that device. You plug the thing in, and it just freaking works. Period.

The most widely cited, and in my view credible, issue with GNU+Linux adoption isn't technological; ironically, it's a commercial problem: lack of direct bundling with mainstream purchased hardware. I also think ignorance is a major factor — no surprise there — and general user apathy.

Actually, I think my biggest worry where user adoption is concerned, is GNU+Linux being put forward, and being adopted, for the wrong reasons, and with completely wrong expectations in the heads of those doing so. The last thing the Free Software community and movement needs is the modern day equivalent to the "AOL user" of the 1990s. Neither LM not any other distro is a drop-in replacement for a commercial, proprietary operating system where you just download off of any random web site some kind of software to do some silly thing, or that you can walk into Walmart, Best Buy, Saturn (for my German friends here), or wherever, and buy a bunch of in point of fact restricting proprietary software.

The GNU+Linux community does not need a bunch of heedless, mindless, "I don't give a s*** about computers, I just want to play video games and surf Facebook and Instagram" users who cause community-level problems and either deliberately or unwittingly give Free Software's reputation a black eye.
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Moem
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Moem » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:39 am

kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business
What are the things you want to do and cannot do through the GUI?
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Pjotr » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:00 am

Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:39 am
kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business
What are the things you want to do and cannot do through the GUI?
Good question....

Many people see all these command lines littering this forum, which makes them think that they're essential for day-to-day Linux use. But in most cases they're not: it's simply that command lines are often more convenient to use and independent from desktop environment (desktop environments like Cinnamon, MATE and Xfce often have different graphical tools for certain jobs).

For the forum helpers, command lines beat the hell out of describing tortuous and intricate clickety-click graphical steps that change every six months.... :mrgreen:
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Re: My Opinion

Post by gm10 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:16 am

kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
I, personally, don't see a great deal of difference between Cinnamon and Mate. Their start menus are different, but other than that I don't see any appreciable difference. So for now I am leaning toward the Cinnamon desktop, but will use the Mate desktop in the one computer until I get more knowledgeable about the desktop.

[...]

Anyone want to comment on Cinnamon vs. Mate. :)
We don't need to convince you, whichever version works well for you is the right choice for you. ;)

There's quite a few differences between those two though. Ultimately I'm using MATE because it's got the better workflow for me, a free choice of window manager, a few more options, a few less bugs, and ultimately is more stable on my system. I'm not sure how much the often mentioned resource cost difference still matters since Cinnamon 4.2 though - it's still heavier than MATE but not quite to the same extent that it used to be. There's much lighter desktops than MATE.

I'm a bit on the fence regarding the file manager though, for a while I had switched to Nemo over MATE's default Caja because of some things that Nemo does much better, but ended up going back to Caja because of things Nemo is worse at and that I use a lot - but ultimately I greatly dislike all Linux file managers when compared to Windows' Explorer and am more comfortable on the command line, anyway.
kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
One thing I believe, if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity,
As others have said, you'll need to be more specific about what you think is missing if you hope someone will act on it.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by RollyShed » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:38 am

kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
One thing I believe, if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business,
Having just spent an afternoon bringing our new club secretary up to speed and his laptop using Win7, my question is "What do you mean by more consumer friendly distro?"

Files in folders, Mint one click to change between icon or list, Win7 3 clicks. Office, where is everything? No proper menu as with LibreOffice. Picture viewing, how do you do simple edits such as crop and resize? OK if you use IrfanView but how many know about it? And it works well on Mint under WINE. The default Win7 picture viewer does nothing.

And so it went on, simple and obvious things with Mint and 3 or 4 clicks to get the same thing with Win7 - if you could find it.

Fortunately the short cuts, Ctrl+... are all the same.

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Re: My Opinion

Post by Portreve » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:41 am

I have an idiot for a coworker.

That said, he's useful for this example.

My coworker claims as far as he knows from people he's talked to, "Linux is strictly this command line system".

Another example is the recent thread here on LMF which talks about an incident where someone went to buy a laptop with the intent of running a distro on it and they were told "this laptop is too powerful for Linux".

This is fundamentally no different than the FUD spread around back in the day regarding the Macintosh platform.

On the one hand, it isn't the job of any of us as individuals to spend our lives, 24×7 so to speak, debunking every piece of garbage spread around about GNU+Linux. On the other hand, if it's all left unchallenged, there's potentially an unlimited number of our fellow humans who will run afoul of the lies, the misperceptions, and the half-baked notions which are without a doubt out there.

I guess mostly what I'm really trying to argue for here is a sense of perspective for everyone, including the OP.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by lsemmens » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:02 am

Pjotr wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:00 am
Moem wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:39 am
kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business
What are the things you want to do and cannot do through the GUI?
Good question....

Many people see all these command lines littering this forum, which makes them think that they're essential for day-to-day Linux use. But in most cases they're not: it's simply that command lines are often more convenient to use and independent from desktop environment (desktop environments like Cinnamon, MATE and Xfce often have different graphical tools for certain jobs).

For the forum helpers, command lines beat the hell out of describing tortuous and intricate clickety-click graphical steps that change every six months.... :mrgreen:
Well said! It is far easier, and waaaaaay more accurate to get someone to copy and paste a command into terminal than tell them to click on an icon and hope that they've found the right one.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by kemperhills » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 am

Sorry if I raised some ire about my "GUI' comment. It was said tongue in cheek because of the comments I have read about Linux's being consumer unfriendly because of the command line "necessity".

Though, IMO, Linux is a bit more demanding in the learning curve, I really find little difference in Windows and Linux. There are just different OS's designed in different ways.

Linux has Terminal, Windows has Command Prompt. I personally never used Command Prompt very little as I don't like having to type commands that I, very often, type incorrectly and have to go through the process again.

I use Opera browser on all my computers and on the Cinnamon and Mate desktops I simpl went to Opera's site, downloaded and installed the browser and started using it.

In Linux, as well and Windows, it is sometimes necessary to use the command line but all in all anyone who has trouble with Linux probably had trouble with Windows. As I said, I have been a Windows user since W95 and as I think back over those years I had as much trouble learning Windows as I am having with Linux.

I really thing the only really problem people have with Linux, unless as one poster said they are total idiots, is familiarity. Probably most computer users was "raised" on Windows, are familiar with it, know how to use it a bit, and simply don't want to, or to lazy, to learn a bit about Linux.

Finally, I like Linux more that Windows, why? Because, for one thing, over the years I can't remember the times I had to do a fresh install of Windows because of a virus, or other reason, and then have to go through the process of reloading programs I needed.
So I have switched to Linux and will run W7 in a VB for the programs I need that won't run on Linux. For example, I have over 3000 wps files that I can't find any program that will open the files and keep the format in tact. Lazy, maybe, but I am not about to manally reformat over 3000 wps files in LibreOffice. 8)
Until my retirement, mechanics was my work, when I wanted to relax, my hobby was mechanics. When I was 14 I found a car had an engine, my passion has been mechanics ever since. In retirement I am finding the same passion working on computers.

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Re: My Opinion

Post by gm10 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:49 am

kemperhills wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 am
So I have switched to Linux and will run W7 in a VB for the programs I need that won't run on Linux. For example, I have over 3000 wps files that I can't find any program that will open the files and keep the format in tact. Lazy, maybe, but I am not about to manally reformat over 3000 wps files in LibreOffice. 8)
wps files as in WPS Office? http://wps-community.org/downloads
Or wps as in the old Microsoft Works format? I'm not sure what opens that these days, haven't seen one of those in many many years.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by KBD47 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:56 am

kemperhills wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:27 pm
I, personally, don't see a great deal of difference between Cinnamon and Mate. Their start menus are different, but other than that I don't see any appreciable difference. So for now I am leaning toward the Cinnamon desktop, but will use the Mate desktop in the one computer until I get more knowledgeable about the desktop.

One thing I believe, if Linux would build a more consumer friendly distro, perhaps with more gui operating capacity, they would put Microsoft out of business, or at least diminish Microsoft significantly. I have worked on computer for years and people more and more, seem, to be disenchanted with Microsoft. But I Linux did that they would be Windows :D , wouldn't they. 8)

Anyone want to comment on Cinnamon vs. Mate. :)
If you turn off the effects on Cinnamon it doesn't use much ram (650mb on Debian 10). That was one of the biggest reasons I chose MATE in the past, especially on low spec machines. MATE also felt more mature, more complete as a DE, but Cinnamon has caught up to it pretty much now. So it's just a matter of choice, or what appeals the most. Functionally there is not much difference.
As for a consumer friendly distro. With Windows 10 breaking constantly with updates, and needing reinstalling, it doesn't seem any more consumer friendly at this point than Linux. I can reinstall Mint in a matter of minutes, Windows 10 takes much longer.

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Re: My Opinion

Post by KBD47 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:59 am

Pjotr wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:00 am

For the forum helpers, command lines beat the hell out of describing tortuous and intricate clickety-click graphical steps that change every six months.... :mrgreen:
You got that right, Digging down into Windows menus makes a few lines in a Linux terminal seem heaven sent :)

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Re: My Opinion

Post by kemperhills » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:45 pm

wps files as in WPS Office? http://wps-community.org/downloads
Or wps as in the old Microsoft Works format? I'm not sure what opens that these days, haven't seen one of those in many many years.


Like in Microsoft Works 9. I started using it years ago and liked the processor. I don't like Word, so I use Works.

WPS office lost the format like others I have tried. Thanks for the help.
Until my retirement, mechanics was my work, when I wanted to relax, my hobby was mechanics. When I was 14 I found a car had an engine, my passion has been mechanics ever since. In retirement I am finding the same passion working on computers.

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Re: My Opinion

Post by Moem » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:51 pm

kemperhills wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 am
Sorry if I raised some ire about my "GUI' comment.
Not really, just curiosity.
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Stefano_IT » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:10 pm

kemperhills wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 am
For example, I have over 3000 wps files that I can't find any program that will open the files and keep the format in tact. Lazy, maybe, but I am not about to manally reformat over 3000 wps files in LibreOffice. 8)

When I started using the computer many years ago I had a Windows 98 with MS Works installed.
I have created many documents with that format.
Later MS Works and even that format has disappeared, I found myself in a difficult situation with many files and with the problem of opening them.
The only solution was to open with Libre Office and then convert to .RTF (but maybe .ODT was fine too)
Now it's not possible anymore because currently not even these programs support that format but maybe you can download an old version of them.
If you need it I still have an old Netbook with XP where there is the latest version of LibreOffice (version 3 or 4 ??) which opens the Works format - if you need it write and I will go to see which is the version number (maybe I could still have the old installer)
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Re: My Opinion

Post by athi » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:21 pm

Link to old LibreOffice version downloads https://downloadarchive.documentfoundat ... ffice/old/
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Re: My Opinion

Post by Stefano_IT » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:43 pm

athi wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:21 pm
Link to old LibreOffice version downloads https://downloadarchive.documentfoundat ... ffice/old/
@ athi
Thanks for link, it is useful.
I turned on the old Netbook, I can confirm that with the old Libreoffice version 3.6.7.2 I can open and convert those .wps files.
It's been a long time but I remember that it was the last version able to manage them, in fact on that pc I never upgraded LibreOffice for that reason.

Perhaps even this old discussion can help (it concerns OpenOffice but there are some useful comments)
https://forum.openoffice.org/fr/forum/v ... 13&t=36152
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Re: My Opinion

Post by BenTrabetere » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:45 pm

athi wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:21 pm
Link to old LibreOffice version downloads https://downloadarchive.documentfoundat ... ffice/old/
Older versions of LibreOffice are also available as an AppImage. Unlike installing the .DEB, with the AppImage nothing is installed to the system other than downloading the file. To remove an AppImage, simply delete the file. Because it is a self-contained image of the application and everything it needs to run, it will not interfere with the installed version of LibreOffice.
https://libreoffice.soluzioniopen.com/i ... -versions/

Download the file, make it executable, and run.

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