The end is nigh...

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Kadaitcha Man
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The end is nigh...

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... -BIOS-Drop
Fedora stakeholders are debating the merits of potentially ending legacy BIOS support for the Linux distribution and to only support UEFI-based installations.

Given Fedora 33 GRUB changes planned and things being easier if they were to just switch to the UEFI-based systemd sd-boot as well as Intel planning to end legacy BIOS support in 2020 and UEFI being very common to x86_64 systems for many years now, Fedora developers are discussing whether it's a good time yet for their bleeding-edge platform to also begin phasing out legacy BIOS support.
If this gets up and spreads to other distributions, there'll be a lot of unhappy people. My opinion is that it's a good thing; it's called progress.

Also see: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... S-EOL-2020
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

One of the advantages of Linux is the ability to run (often well) on legacy hardware (and please don't sic the Mint police on me :wink: ) so, yeah, it probably would make a lot of people unhappy.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by DoodMann »

I'm gonna frickin' cry about that, my system only uses legacy. Lots of STINKIE!!! :evil:
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Moem »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:18 pm
If this gets up and spreads to other distributions, there'll be a lot of unhappy people. My opinion is that it's a good thing; it's called progress.
That's an IF that's doing a lot of work there.
I like progress. But not progress for the sake of progress. And I like being able to use stuff for a long time. It's more sustainable and thus better for the earth.
But so far this seems to be about Fedora only, which is, as said, a much more bleeding-edge focused platform than most other distros. No skin off my nose.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by DoodMann »

So you mean, Fedora is the only one which will implement that feature? Damn, I was about to try Fedora until this showed up.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by lsemmens »

How many people are still using 8088 series CPUs? Of course there will be people who are running legacy systems, but, eventually, must either remain with their OLD hardware/software and/or UPGRADE. There are people who still drive model T Fords, but they certainly don't expect to break any records for accelleration, nor do they expect to be able to fit brake pads to it, given that the model T never had disk brakes or electric lights.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

lsemmens wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:51 am
...given that the model T never had disk brakes or electric lights.
Well, yes, they lacked those things but they came with something that you can't get these days. A copper running in front, madly waving a flag. Not unlike BIOS boot.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by lsemmens »

My point perzzaccerly!
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Pjotr »

It's just Fedora, as usual bleeding profusely on the edge.... :lol:

If F. adopts it any time soon, and I stress the word if, it'll probably last over a decade before it becomes mainstream. At the very least. No worries, people. Don't get excited over nothing. :mrgreen:
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by thx-1138 »

...there's nothing really that much 'cutting edge' about it. I believe all systems after 2012 have UEFI support.
Most (but not all for sure) systems after 2009 actually have. Those people in between might be affected, yes.

As for running Fedora on a pre-2008 system...well, that would be imho at the very least...weird.
Even with the conservative Debian / Ubuntu & derivatives, and you frequently see that stuff,
doesn't really work properly 'out of the box' anymore.
If it runs like an aging paraplegic dog on userland level...what's the point in the first place, UEFI or not UEFI.
But...most Fedora users are developers / programmers (and furthermore, most - but not all - kernel devs use Fedora).
Kinda doubt they rebuild the kernel on such old systems...
they naturally use at least relatively new hardware (and even then, i'm probably underplaying it).

That's what Fedora's end user base is for the most part, not people who want to revive in...2021,
their Fujitsu Siemens from 2004 that they had stashed in the attic.
Fedora is famous after all for carrying patches (kernel, xorg) possibly not-even-yet-upstream for newer hardware,
not for maintaining custom workarounds for computers from the previous decade (that would be eg. Antix i'd believe)...
Fedora RHEL9 was also looking at dropping support for older processors recently.

Furthermore, although their proposals do indeed start somewhat on the 'radical' side,
in due course of their semi-internal discussions, they always seem to find a reasonable in-between balance.
Based on what their target end-user base is, it makes perfect sense to want to cut-off the slack here or there.

In any case, a moot point, as already stated above,
by the end of the year / early next year, Intel will support only UEFI, so...
It's already a bit weird in 2021 running 64-bit OS (eg. with Ubuntu having dropped 32-bit in 2018), but...
continuing to boot via Legacy / CSM 16-bit BIOS (and i believe even such is emulated?)...

So yeah, in 5-6 yrs from now...i'd find it kinda weird in say 2026 for eg. Canonical,
to actively 'bother' supporting installation in say...Sandybridge systems or earlier.
Simply because none of their paid clients will be using such as well - only diy hobbyists at home.
Not to mention that stuff like SecureBoot become more & more popular in the actual corporate world...

..."No worries, people". Never really had any worries myself about UEFI in the first place... why would I? :P :)
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Portreve »

I'd no idea the removal of old architecture and legacy BIOS support brought Sol's imminent exhaustion of hydrogen (and therefore burning of only helium, which raises the temperature and causes expansion, eventually engulfing Mercury, Venus, and then Earth, and transformation into a brown dwarf) that much closer.

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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by zshlover »

Portreve wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:58 pm
I'd no idea the removal of old architecture and legacy BIOS support brought Sol's imminent exhaustion of hydrogen (and therefore burning of only helium, which raises the temperature and causes expansion, eventually engulfing Mercury, Venus, and then Earth, and transformation into a brown dwarf) that much closer.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by rambo919 »

Given all the headaches it causes and the ability of M$ to simply shut everyone else out if they really wanted to.... or to leave backdoors into other OS's which might partially be what the whole new linux in windows thing is actually about.... I see no real benefit to UEFI beyond the cosmetic.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by cliffcoggin »

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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Terryphi »

rambo919 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:34 am
Given all the headaches it causes and the ability of M$ to simply shut everyone else out if they really wanted to.... or to leave backdoors into other OS's which might partially be what the whole new linux in windows thing is actually about.... I see no real benefit to UEFI beyond the cosmetic.
I agree. My wife and I have identical computers running LM Mate with identical hardware, software and settings. I have UEFI boot and she has Legacy boot. Guess which boots faster? The Legacy boot.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Dark Owl »

I wouldn't mind so much if the UEFI boot process had been implemented properly, so the user could (if they wanted) actually see and control what's going on. As things stand (on my mobo, anyway), the user has no control whatsoever (other than temporarily forcing boot from a specific drive) and it's in the lap of the gods what happens (unless specifically forced every time).
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Portreve »

Dark Owl wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:04 am
I wouldn't mind so much if the UEFI boot process had been implemented properly, so the user could (if they wanted) actually see and control what's going on. As things stand (on my mobo, anyway), the user has no control whatsoever (other than temporarily forcing boot from a specific drive) and it's in the lap of the gods what happens (unless specifically forced every time).
I have an HP Envy tower, and I've had no issues booting the Live ISO image or booting my machine after having installed LM 19.3 and now 20.0. I think UEFI quality is perhaps a manufacturer-by-manufacturer kind of thing.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Dark Owl »

Portreve wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:41 pm
I have an HP Envy tower, and I've had no issues booting the Live ISO image or booting my machine after having installed LM 19.3 and now 20.0. I think UEFI quality is perhaps a manufacturer-by-manufacturer kind of thing.
This is an ASUS mobo with American Megatrends BIOS version 2.17.1246.

Don't get me wrong, the UEFI boot works fine if you just want to boot standard - but booting from DVD (for example) means interrupting the boot and forcing boot override. There is no way to set a boot order with DVD taking priority and falling back to HDD if there is no bootable DVD present, like there would be in legacy.

I have no doubt this could be done via GRUB, but that rather defeats the point - to get to GRUB, first you have to boot a HDD partition.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Kadaitcha Man »

Dark Owl wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:16 pm
Portreve wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:41 pm
This is an ASUS mobo with American Megatrends BIOS version 2.17.1246. ... the UEFI boot works fine if you just want to boot standard - but booting from DVD (for example) means interrupting the boot and forcing boot override....
You have to do the same for legacy boot, so I think that's a stinky red herring. You can't extrapolate from your experience to the entirety of the world's UEFI machines. Besides, my machine is "an ASUS mobo with American Megatrends BIOS...". It's a simple task to set the boot order.
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Re: The end is nigh...

Post by Dark Owl »

Kadaitcha Man wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:51 pm
You have to do the same for legacy boot, so I think that's a stinky red herring. You can't extrapolate from your experience to the entirety of the world's UEFI machines. Besides, my machine is "an ASUS mobo with American Megatrends BIOS...". It's a simple task to set the boot order.
Think what you like, what you say does not align with my experience. Setting the boot order in UEFI mode does not stick (on my mobo, and you have to admit it wouldn't be general to have experience of a wide variety of mobos).

If this is genuinely different from other identical mobos, it has to be put down to some specific kind of fault which doesn't affect anything else (but I put it down to poor implementation). I think the CMOS battery is OK, but I will check.
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