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Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 pm
by ajgringo619
Didn't think it would be Fedora joining openSUSE...
https://9to5linux.com/fedora-33-beta-re ... -linux-5-8

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:50 pm
by motoryzen
ajgringo619 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:40 pm
Didn't think it would be Fedora joining openSUSE...
https://9to5linux.com/fedora-33-beta-re ... -linux-5-8
--I remember Wendell from Level1techs ( probably closer to back when he was with Tek Syndicate many suns ago) talking about xfs but more coherently..BTRFS and how it's superior to EXT4, but I don't recall any details. So far the only thing I understand about BTRFS vs EXT4 is that BTRFS supports file, volume, and drive sizes much larger than EXT4, but I don't see in a close enough part of my lifetime needing BTRFS anytime soon since my max file sizes end up being not even 45 GBs...and that's a fully loaded cgi bluray movie ...before handbrake-ing it. Copy-on-write, which is a part of BTRFS, is basically greek to me unfortunately --

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:54 pm
by ajgringo619
For the average user, EXT4 works just fine. My main reason for using BTRFS is its nearly-instantaneous snapshots, which Timeshift works very well with. It's not as mature as EXT3/4, but it's definitely come a long way.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:28 pm
by Kadaitcha Man
ajgringo619 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:54 pm
For the average user, EXT4 works just fine. My main reason for using BTRFS is its nearly-instantaneous snapshots, which Timeshift works very well with. It's not as mature as EXT3/4, but it's definitely come a long way.
Do you use it for the root fs?

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:09 pm
by Portreve
Stability is to me always pretty high on the priority list. When it comes to such things as file systems, it is paramount.

Not saying anything against BTRFS, but I prefer the generational maturation and stability of EXT.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:11 pm
by ajgringo619
Portreve wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:09 pm
Stability is to me always pretty high on the priority list. When it comes to such things as file systems, it is paramount.

Not saying anything against BTRFS, but I prefer the generational maturation and stability of EXT.
Agreed. I just thought that the Mint devs, especially since they started pushing Timeshift, would have considered it, at least for root; who knows - maybe they did.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:28 am
by Portreve
ajgringo619 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:11 pm
Portreve wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:09 pm
Stability is to me always pretty high on the priority list. When it comes to such things as file systems, it is paramount.

Not saying anything against BTRFS, but I prefer the generational maturation and stability of EXT.
Agreed. I just thought that the Mint devs, especially since they started pushing Timeshift, would have considered it, at least for root; who knows - maybe they did.
I know that Pjotr had originally cautioned against using BTRFS in his article on optimizing ones LM or Ubuntu installation for SSD on the basis that it caused too many writes. IIRC, he's since said it may be acceptable. However, I would prefer him to comment because he knows far more about this matter than I.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 am
by antikythera
It surprises me more that it's taken so long for Fedora to switch to btrfs as the default for at least root. Presumably the folks at Red Hat want Fedora users to act as guinea pigs so they can iron out any issues before switching RHEL to the FS as well. Even though Fedora is not officially a Red Hat project and has not been for many years now they still have some say as to how it's run and provide limited Personnel work hours to the Fedora Project.

It has been an option for quite some time via manual partitioning though. If you want to find out just how long, search the Fedora Dungeon for posts by stevea. He wrote some guides to using it with Fedora 20 if I recall correctly.

I'm not convinced by btrfs though for home users, it's overly complicated for very little gain and requires some maintenance by the end user from time to time whereas Ext4 can be left alone. I have tried living with it on one machine for 6 months via OpenSUSE default install. When the excrement did hit the fan I couldn't actually get the snapshot to restore despite following instructions to the letter.

Sure Timeshift works with the btrfs snapshot feature but so what? If the storage medium packs up, then you lose your snapshots too just like any other form of internal file system backup. To that end it's no better than Windows System Restore which should also not be relied on alone.

I'll stick with Ext4 and backing up to an external device using rsync.

As for why Ubuntu and therefore Mint have not adopted it yet:

Is btrfs stable? - https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php ... _stable.3F

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:02 am
by Pjotr
antikythera wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 am
As for why Ubuntu and therefore Mint have not adopted it yet:

Is btrfs stable? - https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php ... _stable.3F
Indeed. Thanks, but no, thanks. :mrgreen:

BTRFS is probably not as mature as EXT4 yet, and also it might (under certain circumstances) cause more write actions than EXT4 does. Which you may want to avoid on SSD's.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:03 am
by ajgringo619
antikythera wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 am
Is btrfs stable? - https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php ... _stable.3F
Wish I knew when this paragraph was written; wikis are notorious for leaving out this simple piece of information.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:07 am
by ajgringo619
antikythera wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 am
Sure Timeshift works with the btrfs snapshot feature but so what? If the storage medium packs up, then you lose your snapshots too just like any other form of internal file system backup. To that end it's no better than Windows System Restore which should also not be relied on alone.
Timeshift is supposed to be only a system restore utility, not for complete disaster relief. I think this is one of Timeshift's biggest misconceptions - that it's designed to recover from a catastrophic hardware failure. While it might be able to do that, that's not its main purpose.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:29 am
by Hoser Rob
Ineresting then that Red Hat ... Fedora users are merely Red Hat beta testers whether they know it or not ... only seems nto support ext3:

https://access.redhat.com/documentation ... -part-mkfs

And I think they only supported ext2 until fairly recently.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:48 am
by ajgringo619
Hoser Rob wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:29 am
Ineresting then that Red Hat ... Fedora users are merely Red Hat beta testers whether they know it or not ... only seems nto support ext3:

https://access.redhat.com/documentation ... -part-mkfs

And I think they only supported ext2 until fairly recently.
Agreed on Fedora users, but your RHEL link is referencing a really old version (on v8 now).

After further investigation, RHEL 8.2 uses XFS as the default filesystem!

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:55 pm
by SilFox
Well it maybe has purpose on server systems, but, for desktop users, BTRFS = bloated totally redundant file system, which makes Your OS main purpose to create backups, and backups of backups, and so on ...
It remainds me of ZFS ...

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:20 pm
by Pjotr
SilFox wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:55 pm
for desktop users, BTRFS = bloated totally redundant file system, which makes Your OS main purpose to create backups, and backups of backups, and so on ...
Well put, sir! :lol:

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:38 pm
by antikythera
ajgringo619 wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:07 am
antikythera wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 am
Sure Timeshift works with the btrfs snapshot feature but so what? If the storage medium packs up, then you lose your snapshots too just like any other form of internal file system backup. To that end it's no better than Windows System Restore which should also not be relied on alone.
Timeshift is supposed to be only a system restore utility, not for complete disaster relief. I think this is one of Timeshift's biggest misconceptions - that it's designed to recover from a catastrophic hardware failure. While it might be able to do that, that's not its main purpose.
I'm under no illusions that is the main purpose of Timeshift but it does work quite well for that purpose too :lol:

One advantage btrfs does have are the size of the snapshots compared to rsync. Regardless I still wouldn't keep any snapshots on a single drive alone because even snapshots get corrupted. I never have and never will.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:00 pm
by ddog241
SilFox wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:55 pm
Well it maybe has purpose on server systems, but, for desktop users, BTRFS = bloated totally redundant file system, which makes Your OS main purpose to create backups, and backups of backups, and so on ...
It remainds me of ZFS ...
but you need a backup of the backup of the backup of the backup.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:08 pm
by SilFox
No, I do not.
I only need 1, manually created. (B4 any upd/upgr)

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:52 pm
by MartyMint
Portreve wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:09 pm


Not saying anything against BTRFS, but I prefer the generational maturation and stability of EXT.
I'm with you on that.

My business depends on a somewhat dull, but rock-solid OS and file system.

Re: Another Major Distro Chooses BTRFS

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:14 pm
by exploder
I think I will stick with ext4 until the performance issues get resolved. Plenty of people are enjoying BTRFS but I am taking a conservative approach for now.