The Worst Linux Advice

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rene
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by rene »

Hoser Rob wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:23 am [Wine is] a stupid hack that's just never going to work the way newbies think it will.
The thing about Wine is that it is a reimplementation of parts of the Windows ABI on top of the Linux kernel, and certainly if you aim to support more involved applications this includes undocumented, wrongly and/or very obscurely documented parts of said ABI, meaning you've just doomed yourself to for evermore reverse-engineering and micro-copycatting Microsoft.

As such I personally don't even really care about it being a hack technically; it's a stupid concept that's just never going to work the way newbies think it will.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by InkKnife »

Hoser Rob wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:33 am
Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:20 am .... Unless there is a very compelling reason to use Synaptic Package Manager, the Software Manager would likely be the better option for a noob. I cannot say that I have ever used the Synaptic Package Manager.
Don't agree with this really. The only compelling reason to use software manager is the user reviews, but since only beginners use SM, the reviews aren't useful.
This is silly. The Software manager is exactly the tool when you want to simply install an application. Synaptic is good when you need to track down a missing lib or something. An application installed by synaptic is no "better" than an application installed with the software manager.
Talking about bad advice, I'd say telling someone to use a more complicated method to do something when a simpler one is available fits.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

InkKnife wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:05 pm
Hoser Rob wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:33 am
Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:20 am .... Unless there is a very compelling reason to use Synaptic Package Manager, the Software Manager would likely be the better option for a noob. I cannot say that I have ever used the Synaptic Package Manager.
Don't agree with this really. The only compelling reason to use software manager is the user reviews, but since only beginners use SM, the reviews aren't useful.
This is silly.
No it is not. I never use the software manger, and never have. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. I also agree with Hoser Rob's assessment of the reviews and that it's for beginners.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Ivy_Pool »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:50 pm
InkKnife wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:05 pm
Hoser Rob wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:33 am

Don't agree with this really. The only compelling reason to use software manager is the user reviews, but since only beginners use SM, the reviews aren't useful.
This is silly.
No it is not. I never use the software manger, and never have. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. I also agree with Hoser Rob's assessment of the reviews and that it's for beginners.
For context, did Software Manager even exist when you were a Linux noob?
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:10 pm For context, did Software Manager even exist when you were a Linux noob?
Since I've never used it, the necessary logical consequence is that the answer must necessarily be something along the lines of 'how the heck would I know'.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by RollyShed »

Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:10 pmFor context, did Software Manager even exist when you were a Linux noob?
Exist 20+ years ago in non-Mint distros? No, not that I remember.
If I want an app I go to the Software Manager and download it. Quick and easy and it works so why not use it?
Or what else would you use?
You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

RollyShed wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:27 pm You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
Learning. That's why some of us build Gentoo or Arch from scratch.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:29 pm
RollyShed wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:27 pm (Exist 20+ years ago in non-Mint distros? No, not that I remember.
If I want an app I go to the Software Manager and download it. Quick and easy and it works so why not use it?
Or what else would you use?)
You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
Learning. That's why some of us build Gentoo or Arch from scratch.
Different strokes for different folks. Some people love the challenge of more complication; others prefer (or need) simplicity. For some people, computers are "toys" they love to tinker with; others feel they are just "tools" used to accomplish something. Then there are all the gray areas between those extremes. None of them are right or wrong in general. What's right or wrong depends entirely on the needs, abilities, and/or desires of each individual.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:53 pm
Kadaitcha Man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:29 pm Learning. That's why some of us build Gentoo or Arch from scratch.
Different strokes for different folks.
That is precisely the point I was making when I wrote, "It all depends on what you are comfortable with.", further up the thread, a mere 2 or 3 posts away.
What's right or wrong depends entirely on the needs, abilities, and/or desires of each individual.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Ivy_Pool »

RollyShed wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:27 pm
Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:10 pmFor context, did Software Manager even exist when you were a Linux noob?
Exist 20+ years ago in non-Mint distros? No, not that I remember.
If I want an app I go to the Software Manager and download it. Quick and easy and it works so why not use it?
Or what else would you use?
You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
I agree with you.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by RollyShed »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:50 pm
"Don't agree with this really. The only compelling reason to use software manager is the user reviews, but since only beginners use SM, the reviews aren't useful."

Then - "This is silly..... then going on saying it is for downloads."

No it is not. I never use the software manger...
The comment/argument was only about using Software Manger for reviews or downloads. The answer was no, you use it for downloads.

Your "I never use it." has nothing to do with the argument. If you don't use it, use of it for reviews or downloads won't apply.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

RollyShed wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:54 am The comment/argument was only about using Software Manger for reviews or downloads. The answer was no, you use it for downloads.

Your "I never use it." has nothing to do with the argument. If you don't use it, use of it for reviews or downloads won't apply.
And your point is?

If it is anything other than that I will respond to whatever I please in whatever manner I please with whatever ideas I please and that you have absolutely no say in any of that then you're on track.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Ivy_Pool »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:14 pm
Ivy_Pool wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:10 pm For context, did Software Manager even exist when you were a Linux noob?
Since I've never used it, the necessary logical consequence is that the answer must necessarily be something along the lines of 'how the heck would I know'.
My contention has always been that SM is preferable for software installs over SPM as advice to noobs. You have not used SM, so why you'd even have an opinion about SM as a preferable option for noobs makes no sense to me.

After initially participating in the thread, I used SMP on my Xubuntu setup. I personally found SMP to be easy enough. Like, I was expecting brain surgery level difficulty, and it was not. Everything worked afterward; however, no rainbows blew out the back of my pc. Ultimately, I walked away thinking SM or even the command line would have been simpler.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

Ivy_Pool wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:18 am ... so why you'd even have an opinion about SM makes no sense to me.
There is no requirement for anyone to justify their opinion to you, or to state it in some way that makes sense to you. Furthermore opinion is never required to be founded on any fact; it requires no proof whatsoever, and need not ever be based on any positive knowledge at all.

QED
rene
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by rene »

Kadaitcha Man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:24 am Furthermore opinion is never required to be founded on any fact
In my opinion that is very much not a fact --- but okay, let me stay out of that, I guess...
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Moonstone Man »

rene wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:34 am
Kadaitcha Man wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:24 am Furthermore opinion is never required to be founded on any fact
In my opinion that is very much not a fact ---
lol
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by Termy »

RollyShed wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:27 pm If I want an app I go to the Software Manager and download it. Quick and easy and it works so why not use it?
Or what else would you use?
You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
Your post is one asked by many who don't 'get' the terminal workflow. I understand — I disagree, but I understand. I remember when I started out with Linux almost 7 years ago, I had a similar attitude.

The terminal is often the most efficient and direct way in which to communicate with the 'machine'. The 'terminal' is a stone's throw away from programming languages*, something we have used for years and will continue to use for many more years until AI can do it all for us; I'm not insane, by the way, this is actually possible.

Before Windows, Microsoft started with MS-DOS — a command-line interface — only to move on to GUIs and still provide and make ample use of MS-DOS for many years. Even now, Microsoft have created Powershell, which they made to combat the obvious success of the terminal in Linux. Need I also point out that the terminal is available and also sees ample use in Apple's computers?

If anything, we partly devolved by relying so much on GUIs for everything; the act of pointing, swaying the mouse around like a drunk long past his welcome, clicking with all the accuracy of an elite sniper, trying to micromanager overlapping and misaligned windows, looking for shapes with the image resembling the desired task, etc. Sometimes, when I use a GUI, I feel like I'm stuck gesticulating, rather than simply using words like "make a directory!"

There are man(1) pages, info(1) pages, --help flags, classes available, free self-teaching material on YouTube, and fantastic eBooks for zero currency. For the same reason you have to learn how to use Windows, you also have to learn to use Linux. I mention this because you also have to learn the environment of the terminal.

I would argue that the terminal is perhaps the most intuitive part of computing in Linux; it's almost as intuitive as the languages we speak to one another. What isn't intuitive, is flapping our arms around and grunting. I'm exaggerating to make my point clearer, but there it is.

That's ultimately why I live in terminals.

* The shell — be it BASH, DASH, ZSH, KSH, TCSH, etc — itself being a programming language as well as a command interpreter.
I'm also Terminalforlife on GitHub.
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by motoryzen »

Hoser Rob wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:23 am
motoryzen wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:30 am @Hoser Rob
WIne is a ridiculous idea and fails most of the time
I have to disagree there. ...

... Now, obviously your adobe products, MS Flight Simular, Valorant tech required games like League of Legends and Anticheat required games won't yet work in Linux, as well as Corel WordPerfect ( I've heard this depends on the individual version), but now more than ever more stuff does work in wine these days. It's slowly getting better and better.
'Yet"??? Try "never". Just look at the Wine app comaptibility database and see how well it works. BTW anything rated less than Gold won't run properly.

'Slowly' getting better than ever? I used to read that on Linux forums about 10 years ago.

It's a stupid hack that's just never going to work the way newbies think it will.
That couldn't be further from the truth depending on the individual title. That data base isn't updated on the hour btw. Most titles rated bronze,,sure I"ll give ya that. But, you haven't mentioned a single game that you've actually tried to get working in Wine yet and it refuse to work. Just because you seem to not want it to succeed, doesn't mean it isn't succeeding these days.

Can you play games as old as EA 2002 titles, Prince of Persia Trilogy, ...AND today's hardcore titles like Metro Games, Crysis all on the same Windows os? Get real unless it's XP, and you'll need some serious hacking skills to get past the crap about EA launcher not wanting to support xp for the Crysis and Battlefield games anymore and the older title examples i listed two lines above WON'T work in 7 and newer Windows.

However. I can right this second..with Linux Mint 20.1 Cinnamon and the current wine of 6.11 stable and staging versions play ALL of those games as long as I have the required inside-Wine dependency stuff like dxvk and whatever else enabled/installed. Yes..It takes work..especially to understand it but once you do, it's a whole new world opened up to ya. Yes...ALL on the same Free..opensourced Operating system world of Linux.

So no ..there is nothing ridiculous about using an open sourced software method to play what you like to play that you used to be able to play and is popular to play today too all within the same booted up solid...tried and true ..ever consistently improving distro like Linux mint using that open sourced software to do it with...versus having to run a virtual machine and deal with PCI pass through IOMMU groups and other more hardcore-lower level software intel-needed stuff ( such was what Wendell from Level1Techs is used to doing well at)

Sorry to disagree *shrugs*
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by RollyShed »

Termy wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:06 pm
RollyShed wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:27 pm If I want an app I go to the Software Manager and download it. Quick and easy and it works so why not use it?
Or what else would you use?
You mean a lot of typing in the Terminal? Why?
Your post is one asked by many who don't 'get' the terminal workflow. I understand — I disagree, but I understand. I remember when I started out with Linux almost 7 years ago, I had a similar attitude.

The terminal is often the most efficient and direct way in which to communicate with the 'machine'.
To communicate with the machine or use the machine?

Of possibly 30 Linux Mint users I can point to none use the Terminal or need to use the terminal or even know it exists.

As for Software Manager, a couple of clicks and the required app is downloaded. Use the Terminal and a couple of lines at least of typing.
If anything, we partly devolved by relying so much on GUIs for everything; the act of pointing, swaying the mouse around like a drunk long past his welcome, clicking with all the accuracy of an elite sniper, trying to micromanager overlapping and misaligned windows, looking for shapes with the image resembling the desired task, etc.
OK, there are dyslectics around. My suggestion would be to adjust the sensitivity and speed of your mouse. See System Settings.
I would argue that the terminal is perhaps the most intuitive part of computing in Linux;
And users would tell you it was the most unintuitive part of using a computer to get work done.

Interestingly, you want a plan for making for a green flangle bracket, possibly buying one made on a Tuesday. Do you go into Terminal or bring up your browser and ask DuckDuckGo or Google where to get one?

Yes, I know the answer will be no but at least one tries.

You need to make a spreadsheet of where all your DVDs are. Terminal or LibreOffice?

I'm talking computer use and the tools to do the jobs.

I'm also presuming you harness your horse each morning to get to work? Or does your groom do it for you?
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Re: The Worst Linux Advice

Post by AndyMH »

Worst advice - anybody who recommends bleachbit or grub customiser.
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