Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by pinballfan »

jmorris84 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:55 pm I don't think playing the open source or free angle is what will get the masses to migrate to Linux.
I'm not sure if Linux will ever become mainstream. People tend to value things that they spend money on, and believe in all the marketing and hype. They have an apple product for example, so they can show off to others what they have, and it sort of makes them feel like successful and important people.

Linux is like a different mindset and way of life. I just want something to work, and be unassuming. "No frills". I think the best way of getting people to understand/appreciate Linux is to actually have them try it temporarily. That and word of mouth. It will gain traction due to irritations with Microsoft, Apple, Google etc. People don't tend to know or give any importance to Linux, it's the sort of thing people hear about once in a while but overlook. The reason I switched is because my hardware is old and new Windows runs worse, and also has annoyances like their constant pushing of their products when you log in, having to link a Microsoft account with everything. I'm glad I switched, and I have converted a couple of others to it. It's a hard sell, but once people get used to it, they are happy with it. People fear that something new is difficult, but they were surprised how easy to use and versatile mint is.

In terms of the Linus tech tips episodes, they felt anti climactic. They seemed half interested, but at least Luke stated that he permanently switched his laptop to Linux. It seems to me that some of Youtube channels are getting annoying, trying to be edgy, making rubbish jokes that can be insulting, or putting videos out with a lack of substance and covering the same ground over and over again. It looks a bit desperate and entitled. It's like the more they lose viewers/subscribers, the more controversial they try to be, which ends up making things worse. I'm not saying this applies to Linus tech, but I am just airing some of my discontent with Youtube culture in general. I value humility, and I think a lot of Youtube celebs get greedy and build egos.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MattJ86 »

Linus is often playing that character of a clumsy chap that drops and breaks stuff and here he has that Luke dude for contrast. When he was doing this video he was more interested in being a show host than making stuff work on Linux. This is how I see it.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

MattJ86 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:09 pm Linus is often playing that character of a clumsy chap that drops and breaks stuff and here he has that Luke dude for contrast. When he was doing this video he was more interested in being a show host than making stuff work on Linux. This is how I see it.
I think it was a little of both. I think Linus had real issues, but I also think he was doing some of it for dramatic effect.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by SilFox »

Linus was very unfortunate and picked Pop_os.
OS shiny at outside and shitwarez inside.
OS have nvidia unsolved problems for years ( "unable to unmount oldroot", nvidia proprietary drivers working like ****), and --> NO, anybody who spent fortune on nvidia top VGA does not wanna use nouveau (especialy for gaming). I must say that I tested Pop_os also with AMD 6700XT, and is working OK. But, to properly utilize amdgpu variable refresh rate, as I remember, kernel must be 5.11 or more.

Luke picked LM, and it is his advantage. Although, I don't know if he managed to enable g-sync (or VRR) ...
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

SilFox wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:17 am Linus was very unfortunate and picked Pop_os.
OS shiny at outside and shitwarez inside.
OS have nvidia unsolved problems for years ( "unable to unmount oldroot", nvidia proprietary drivers working like ****), and --> NO, anybody who spent fortune on nvidia top VGA does not wanna use nouveau (especialy for gaming). I must say that I tested Pop_os also with AMD 6700XT, and is working OK. But, to properly utilize amdgpu variable refresh rate, as I remember, kernel must be 5.11 or more.

Luke picked LM, and it is his advantage. Although, I don't know if he managed to enable g-sync (or VRR) ...
POP OS is not a horrible distro, it is just not Mint. That is about as well as I can state it.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MattJ86 »

Pop!_OS is a young distro unlike matured Mint. Also it's made to work especially on System76 hardware. I don't think System76's devs will repair their OS for everyone out there. They're company that has to make money and it's good anyway that they give their OS for people to use. If it doesn't work for somebody, he/she should solve their problems looking up Ubuntu or Mint forums or use differen't distro.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by rossdv8 »

I remember when MInt was a young distro. And Mandrake, and Red Hat . . .
SCARY !
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by SilFox »

I don't think System76's devs will repair their OS for everyone out there.
Fair enough.
~ ... or use differen't distro.
That is exactly what I did. 8)
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MattJ86 »

SilFox wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:35 pm
I don't think System76's devs will repair their OS for everyone out there.
Fair enough.
~ ... or use differen't distro.
That is exactly what I did. 8)
I tried Pop!_OS and it worked fine, but I'm going to be Captain Obvious here, Linux Mint is far better as a distro for everyone. It surpassed everything I tried. Mint repaired everything that was done wrong in Ubuntu, chose the best and most reliable DEs instead of making a mess with tons of different editions. It has all the best Linux software for us to install without hassle. I like Pop!_OS, but I don't expect it to be as universal and as reliable as Mint. I've seen a lot and I'm pretty sure nothing is going to supprise me.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

MattJ86 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:25 pm
SilFox wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:35 pm
I don't think System76's devs will repair their OS for everyone out there.
Fair enough.
~ ... or use differen't distro.
That is exactly what I did. 8)
I tried Pop!_OS and it worked fine, but I'm going to be Captain Obvious here, Linux Mint is far better as a distro for everyone. It surpassed everything I tried. Mint repaired everything that was done wrong in Ubuntu, chose the best and most reliable DEs instead of making a mess with tons of different editions. It has all the best Linux software for us to install without hassle. I like Pop!_OS, but I don't expect it to be as universal and as reliable as Mint. I've seen a lot and I'm pretty sure nothing is going to supprise me.
My experience has been the same as yours. POP OS is alright, it is just not for me, it "feels" too different. BTW I have reached out to the POP OS/System 76 people via snail mail and twitter messages asking for some response, and have never heard from them. But when I was having my issue with the old Darter Pro, their tech support guy in a snarky tone of voice told me my problems were because I put a different distribution on my laptop, I just needed to only use POP OS. They are a little arrogant.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

Has anyone seen any statistics (I know stats lie), after the Linus videos came out showing any additional adopters? Has it had any sort of effect that anyone can see?
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by rossdv8 »

I am sure it is nothing to do with the Linus videos, but I had a couple of people ask questions along the lines of 'do you still fix new Windows computers' over Christmas, and when I asked for more info, they wanted to know if I was still putting that nice looking operating system I did for (whoever it was they knew) because all their computer problems had gone away.

In one case, with a relative of mine and a Lenovo notepad that stubbornly refused to take any other distro I could find, I ended up installing ElementaryOS (as much as I dislike the desktop part) and that person has recommended it to others, although they ended up with Mint because I prefer helping with that.

So I can't see Linus' antics doing too much harm to the adoption of Linux. I just think he plays a bit too much of the bumbling clown sometimes. I also watched the first coup[le of episodes of the PopOS thing and saw some very blatant and stupid mistakes he made installing Pop - so I din;t watch the whole thing.
Admittedly he might have been doing it to show that PopOS is not easy for a complete novice to install, but I still disliked the really obvious 'dumb things to do'.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

I just re-watched the first one, and picked up on things I did not pick up on previously. I think that Linus/Luke had some very valid points that I missed on the first go through. One of them is there is an absolute crippling number of distros out there for new users to try and make sense of to chose to install and try. We (the community) need a better resource to point new users to new user friendly distributions to start off with, sort of a "training wheels" distribution list. Can you imagine a new user coming straight from Windows, never having used a terminal at all, having lived in a GUI world attempting to install Arch or Slackware or even Debian (non graphical)? They would run in terror, leaving Linux forever behind.

Linus's POP! OS debacle is not unexpected, because I know that most of the people I work with, along with the Spouse-Unit would do the exact same thing. Except my wife would NEVER use Terminal. Heck, she was complaining about her new computer yesterday because HP put the power button on the top row next to the delete key. I noticed that Linus had a single monitor, and I think Luke had two, we need to make darn sure that multi-monitor support is easy and intuitive.

One of the good things is that Linux has much, much, much better Printer support than it did back in the old CUPS days, where installing anything was difficult at best, and agonizing at worst. Heck, Mint picked up my HP printer without me doing anything at all, which is so nice. Linux has a pretty hard split between those who want us to remain "pure" and make those pesky noobs learn that hard way like we did (I am guilty of this, both here and at work), and those who want to make it easier for noobs to make the transition (Dumbing down Linux for noobs to purists). I am not sure that we can bridge that gap. Ever.

OBS studio is a prime example of those who come from Windows. Windows users are used to going to the website of the product to install rather than an app center. Also being told forever by Linux evangelists that you NEVER HAVE TO REBOOT IN LINUX, has caused their issues with OBS. We need to get away from the FUD and disinformation. We need to let new users know that most, if not all, the software they need is actually available in the App store on their distributions. Some are more user friendly than others, but that is another rant.

More to come as I re-watch all the videos.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

jayleemor wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 3:45 pm I have watched all four parts of the series recently. As a very new use of linux, I find both Linus and Luke's experiences and reactions pretty accurate given the day. I have searched the forums here or googled problems with mixed results. Sometimes there is a straightforward answer that was just a small piece of knowledge that I did not possess, other times there are pages of responses that are confusing and do not work with copy/paste (at least not when I did it). My intention is to continue using linux mint as my main machine simply because the new OS upgrade I freely, and forcefully, received made my laptop obsolete. It is frustrating to be a noob all over again, you don't even know what you don't know yet.
I agree, I don't think they were downing Linux I think they were testing. I think they should have done a little more homework, but overall they were reasonable for linux newbies.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by Portreve »

Well, I watched the first video in its entirety. Some thoughts...

It's all nice and cool that Linux Mint seemed to work near-flawlessly, so I guess for strictly "marketing" purposes, it's a win.

However, there was nothing in the video talking about exactly what systems each of these guys was using, to say nothing of other attached stuff, and to be fair it's pretty impressive that Pop!_OS supported as much of Linus' rig as it clearly did.

As for the "hardware vs. software user" comment(s) above, my issue with that is hardware makes all the difference in the world. This is not an either/or proposition because everything rides on top of that layer of the stack. Period. There's a fair amount of intellectual laziness baked into our collective world culture and that sucks, but at the end of the day life is not for the intellectually lazy. Maybe that's painful or even a bit harsh-sounding, but it also happens to be true.

If anything, the real criticism should be whether or not Linux in general or any distro in particular is aligned with a reasonable user's expectations. That reasonableness has to have as its main precondition an awareness of the user's actual goal state.

Ok, so all of that said, it's also undeniable on the software side that trying to install a program should definitely not bork a desktop environment, and that in and of itself should not be an unreasonable request. The fact that one can have a (presumably) fairly high-end and modern system up and running with what essentially is a "no problems" OOB experience with LM is truly a feather in its cap, and as a LM supporter (I donate to it) that really makes me happy.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by rene »

The thing as to hardware vs software in this thread is not about users but about hardware vs software people. It's the fundamental characterological difference between, say, people primarily geared towards practice vs theory, implementation vs design, concrete vs abstract, soldering irons vs math books.

I myself am very fundamentally latter category; have really only post-schooling noticed to need some of former to make the most of latter. Linus Sebastian is former and would at this point not seem to have much hope of attaining some of latter. He needs the software to just work to then use the hardware. Linux and "just work", <giggle>.

Software vs hardware -- and never the twain shall meet. Unless in some selected geniuses...
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by rambo919 »

I think a lot of the time it's also a thing of most people being on a spectrum between hardware and software.

Myself I guess I am a hardware guy that dabbles in software.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

Portreve wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:02 am Well, I watched the first video in its entirety. Some thoughts...

It's all nice and cool that Linux Mint seemed to work near-flawlessly, so I guess for strictly "marketing" purposes, it's a win.

However, there was nothing in the video talking about exactly what systems each of these guys was using, to say nothing of other attached stuff, and to be fair it's pretty impressive that Pop!_OS supported as much of Linus' rig as it clearly did.

As for the "hardware vs. software user" comment(s) above, my issue with that is hardware makes all the difference in the world. This is not an either/or proposition because everything rides on top of that layer of the stack. Period. There's a fair amount of intellectual laziness baked into our collective world culture and that sucks, but at the end of the day life is not for the intellectually lazy. Maybe that's painful or even a bit harsh-sounding, but it also happens to be true.

If anything, the real criticism should be whether or not Linux in general or any distro in particular is aligned with a reasonable user's expectations. That reasonableness has to have as its main precondition an awareness of the user's actual goal state.

Ok, so all of that said, it's also undeniable on the software side that trying to install a program should definitely not bork a desktop environment, and that in and of itself should not be an unreasonable request. The fact that one can have a (presumably) fairly high-end and modern system up and running with what essentially is a "no problems" OOB experience with LM is truly a feather in its cap, and as a LM supporter (I donate to it) that really makes me happy.
Again, good point, hardware is the limiting factor in this challenge. Linus seemed to fall into the trap that so many new Linux users succumb to, trying to force their Windows only hardware into working on Linux. This is especially vivid on Laptops, since laptops tend to be made for Windows, most especially WiFi cards! Intel, Realtek, Broadcom, and only Intel really works out of the box.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by MurphCID »

rene wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:35 am The thing as to hardware vs software in this thread is not about users but about hardware vs software people. It's the fundamental characterological difference between, say, people primarily geared towards practice vs theory, implementation vs design, concrete vs abstract, soldering irons vs math books.

I myself am very fundamentally latter category; have really only post-schooling noticed to need some of former to make the most of latter. Linus Sebastian is former and would at this point not seem to have much hope of attaining some of latter. He needs the software to just work to then use the hardware. Linux and "just work", <giggle>.

Software vs hardware -- and never the twain shall meet. Unless in some selected geniuses...
Valid observation.
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Re: Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1 [Linus Tech Tips]

Post by rossdv8 »

Ok, so all of that said, it's also undeniable on the software side that trying to install a program should definitely not bork a desktop environment,...
Most of my 'urgent' and 'panic' callouts at ridiculous times of the morning (like "I know it's 3.30am, but it's urgent because we can't open up shop - and I know you're 150 kilometres away") in the 90s were because MS Windows had screwed up someones system.

From the mid 80s to the mid 2000s we had Xenix customers, cp/m customers, MSDos customers, OS/2 customers and Windows customers. From around 1998 until 2007 we had Linux customers.
All created callout jobs, but the ones that kept us in regular paid work and able to have things like sports cars and flying as a hobby, were Windows breaking stuff, customers.

I always joke that I hate Windows. Truth is - I hated what it was, not the lifestyle it provided . .
On the whole, since the turn of the century, Linux installs have become so intuitive for even beginners, provided they test using a USB stick or a DVD first, and 'Read The Friendly Manual'.
Oops - perhaps that is the big problem with Linux. Too few distros have really good manuals and too few new users even bother to look for - or read them. Luckily these days there's YouTube.
Luckily there's Linus on hand to teach them.
Now where's that 'Tongue-In-Cheek' smilie?
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