Does Linux on a Desktop Feel Like a "Cheap Hack"?

[RollyShed]

Good: Windows 10

Absolutely the very very worst with MS's updates destroying things.
Possibly XP the best. Even numbers bad, odd number better.

[Marie SWE]

Example: Say you open Fifrefox and you have 10windows and 50-80tabs in each window ...

Who in the name of Linus Torvalds does that? Seriously, is that a thing?

That was a example to reproduce the phenomenon, it can happen on fewer windows and fewer tabs. But it can also happens with other memoryhungry programs.
But I do often use around 6-8windows and up to 90tabs when i work with research on my projects.. and up to 4computers at the same time and all of them can have 6-8windows and all those tabs But that's work... not hanging-around on forums as i do right now

- MacOS, LInux, Windows can be used very securely or not, depending on the user, and with more or less difficulties.
The fact that each OS has advantages and inconveniences and different images explains why people choose different OSes.

In the old days I may have been more inclined to agree with you (except for the "depending on the user" bit, more anon) but neither Mac OS X nor Linux has ever been the gaping-security-hole liability that Windows has. In fact, with pretty much any operating system other than those produced by Microsoft, you have to disable or manage to bypass things in order to expose yourself to the same level of risks Windows has by default. In every era, Microsoft's OS offerings have been the substandard (though clearly institutionalized) choices.

As i wrote on page 3 in my long post to that statement was
No OS in the world is more secure than the user itself.
If there was a 100% secure OS... then everyone in the world would use it.
If you really are a true pro on windows and a noob on linux, yes then you can easy make windows more secure... But if you only are a user, then Linux is more secure out of the box install of these three, and MacOS more secure then Windows

Linux has security holes to.. no OS in the world is 100% secure..
Latest in Linux is is this.
Microsoft Discovers New Privilege Escalation Flaws in Linux Operating System https://thehackernews.com/2022/04/micro ... ilege.html
The Dirty Pipe vulnerability https://www.techradar.com/news/this-maj ... -patch-now
an old malware evilgnome https://thehackernews.com/2019/07/linux ... yware.html old but not totally gone.
So using the rhetoric that I have Linux, I can not be infected or hacked.... It's the worst thing you can do even if the probability is small out of the box compared to windows out of the box. usually it's the user who is the weak link in all operating systems, as it often requires an active action before a vulnerability can be exploited.
It is always easier to react and defend yourself/systems when you expect something to happen.... then when you truly believe that you are always safe and nothing can never-ever happen to me...Then you can end up in action paralysis and you don't know what to do and how to act, or in worst case that you don't notice that something is happening until it is too late.

[rene]

So using the rhetoric that I have Linux, I can not be infected or hacked.... It's the worst thing you can do even if the probability is small out of the box compared to windows out of the box.

Please note however that fairly literally no one does in fact ever say that, and certainly that no one with any form of technical clue does or would on technical grounds. The only common rhetoric is people saying that others say that...

[Marie SWE]

So using the rhetoric that I have Linux, I can not be infected or hacked.... It's the worst thing you can do even if the probability is small out of the box compared to windows out of the box.

Please note however that fairly literally no one does in fact ever say that, and certainly that no one with any form of technical clue does or would on technical grounds. The only common rhetoric is people saying that others say that...

actually I have heard Linux users saying that.

[rene]

Heck, I've as said even heard people saying that they heard Linux users saying that. It's just a matter of knowing whom to pay attention to...

[Marie SWE]

Heck, I've as said even heard people saying that they heard Linux users saying that. It's just a matter of knowing whom to pay attention to...

Okay. When I started using Linux for the first time in my life, in March 2018, I did not know who to listen to.
And I do have a habit to always build based on the worst case scenarios I can come up with when I set up systems.

[RetroRemix]

Even though I started way back in 2009 with Ubuntu, I still consider myself a Linux noob today and still have to use Google, man pages and the forums to figure out what most things do and mean even. I suppose I'm a much better noob than I was back then though... because I used to click everything to see what it did and I changed settings I probably shouldn't have, just because it sounded cool! It was not cool when I ended up messing up the GRUB dual boot LOL

I was such a noob back then that that I though sudo apt-get meant that you could point it to any site and have the OS download the program and install it for you, I tried using this to download Windows games off websites thinking it would just download them and play them natively, but damn I had a shock of a lifetime near enough, when it spat out a weird error at me instead. (I didn't even know that WINE existed when I started with Linux, or that even Linux was incompatible with windows programs!)

Today I'm very much still a noob, but at least I'm a noob that manages to not mess up the dual boot anymore or mess it up and have it boot to a black screen with an error.

It doesn't help that I've always had a memory like a sieve though... so that is one big factor that will prolly keep me eternally nooby!

I see myself as a noob in linux too.... and I will keep doing that until that day i solve some big Linux problem or I start working in Linux environments.
We all have probably sabotaged Grub, I think it's "Lesson-1A" in Linux
As my dad told me when I was a kid, it's just as important to make mistakes in life, so you learn what's not working and how to think outside the box and how to solve them.
I am self taught in many areas. computers, hardware, msdos-windows and IT security. But I also studied for 5 years to fill in the knowledge gaps that self learning creates.
My English is also self taught, as you with english mothertongue guaranteed notice.
I also have mild dyslexia, so that doesn't improve the situation directly. ha ha

Computers and machinery has one thing in common.. is built on logic.
The difficult thing is to figure out how the architect was thinking when he/she put it together. Once you figure that out, you start to understand how it works and what works how and why.
I do first learn the easy way to just make it work so i can use it... then when I have time, I sit down and learn it right way. (Edit. and what is the right way.. as everyone else say, or the new way you just have found.)
So you can say that I cheat, when I look for the shortcuts first.
It's going to be very interesting when the quantum computers start to become common, as the logic principle probably won't work in the same way, when it can be both 1 and 0 instead of either 1 or 0

no way RetroRemix I don't think you will be an eternal noob, you just haven't found the right way cheat yet.

EDIT: There was something here in the way of a reply, but I yapped too much and message became too big.

In short, Just saying I agree with you :p

[MikeNovember]

Honestly, the very first version of Windows I ever felt seemed particularly "solid" to me was Windows 2000. I remember it being the first one to impress me with the mouse movement being (finally) as fluid and smooth as what I was used to on a Mac. It also had really decent protected memory and just overall seemed to be very stable and finally worthy as a workstation OS. Windows XP was only ever an updated version of Win2K (from my perspective) and honestly no version of Windows has ever made me particularly happy to use.

The professional versions, Ntx and 2000 were good ones, simple, robust and easy to harden. Yes, XP was an update of 2000, or rather a fix of Vista, itself an update of 2000. From Vista, the professional and home users versions have been merged.

- MacOS, LInux, Windows can be used very securely or not, depending on the user, and with more or less difficulties.

The fact that each OS has advantages and inconveniences and different images explains why people choose different OSes.

In the old days I may have been more inclined to agree with you (except for the "depending on the user" bit, more anon) but neither Mac OS X nor Linux has ever been the gaping-security-hole liability that Windows has.

Your ideas on Windows security are dated. Windows 10 comes with firewall, antivirus, antiransomware enabled by default. You can isolate the kernel and protect the memory (provided your drivers are compatible) and have Edge (the Chrome version) run in a Microsoft provided sandbox.

You can add extra protection by using Sandboxie to run your internet apps in a sandbox (as you could use Firejail on LM).

You can create two users: one with admin rights (used to install /update programs and to update windows) and one with standard rights (used for everyday use of Windows), with the prossibility to use "runas", a kind of sudo (though the creation of two users is not done by default). With this configuration, like it was in the professional versions 2000 and before, the user without admin rights cannot write in Windows and in programs directory, and even cannot write in Windows temp directory (there are two temp dirs, one for Windows, one for the user).

With this, Windows security is rock solid, while attacks (malware, viruses...) are in much larger number than for Linux (Windows, being the most used, is the 1st target).

The result is such that you have more chances of success of an attack targeting WSL (Linux for Windows) than Windows directly.

In fact, the latest security problem I had was in1995, when I used Windows on internet without firewall or antivirus. As soon as I installed both, I never had any problem.

Regards,

MN

[MikeNovember]

Compared to other maths packages, Mathcad offers the unique feature to have an intuitive interface (you write formulas as you wrote it n a sheet of paper, but it is a "living" sheet)

Quite non-unique; Mathematica notebooks have been allowing for that at least for 30 or so years. Anyways -- out.

Hi,

It seems you don't know Mathcad; Mathematica user interface is not comparable, you need to learn a syntax, while you don't need with Mathcad.

You can find here an example I wrote years ago (easter date calculation, bilingual French / English). The way it appears is exactly the way it was written, no underlying programmation.
https://nallino.net/paques/index.html

Regards,

MN

[rambo919]

Actually Win10 basic security is much better than any previous version of the OS.... BUT

The basic security measures implemented are generally either bizarre, abandoned or just not good..... like the rest of the features of the OS

Win10 is good enough if you are not doing stupid things to let you get by but there are things that need replacement here and there if a replacement is available. I never had the displeasure but I am sure Win11 is even worse.... as anything emulating i[Bleep] is.

Unfortunately I have a endearing hate for all things i[Bleep] though.... no offense to any i[Bleep]ers. I even almost hate Intel for using an i for whatever reason before their chip names.... but mostly I just think it's a stupid brandname.... you can't say "the i chips" without embarrassing yourself.

[cliffcoggin]

It's puzzles me that so many topics on a Linux forum involve long rambling and usually futile arguments about Windows. Is it the result of sentimentality for ones past or addiction to a dangerous habit?

[Portreve]

Your ideas on Windows security are dated. Windows 10 comes with firewall, antivirus, antiransomware enabled by default. You can isolate the kernel and protect the memory (provided your drivers are compatible) and have Edge (the Chrome version) run in a Microsoft provided sandbox.

You can add extra protection by using Sandboxie to run your internet apps in a sandbox (as you could use Firejail on LM).

I'm not saying my ideas vis a vis Windows security are not dated. I haven't been professionally active in the tech world in a long time, and I haven't had a responsibility for supporting or maintaining Windows boxen for that same period. That said, Microsoft does not (that I'm aware of) exactly advertise any of what you talked about above, with the exception that Microsoft does provide Windows Defender for when users have not installed any third-party options. However, even that exception has an exception to it itself, which is most people do not go out and buy boxed (or whatever the 2022 equivalent may be) copies of Windows. Rather, most people obtain Windows as part of a purchase of hardware (i.e. desktop systems) and those systems normally all come bundled with trial licenses of third-party A/V software (McAfee, Norton, etc.) so while it's kind of assumed people are generally aware there's some need to have something to protect their computer, they're not exactly looking to Microsoft to provide this service. This brings up an interesting question:

How does one learn about Windows kernel isolation, running Edge in sandbox mode, and Sandboxie?

Again, none of these are things I ever see advertised on the Internet nor in any store I've ever visited (Best Buy, Walmart, Target, Amazon, Tiger Direct, New Egg, etc.) so if someone as technology-literate as I am haven't heard about them, how would "normal folk"?

[rene]

It seems you don't know Mathcad; Mathematica user interface is not comparable, you need to learn a syntax, while you don't need with Mathcad.

...

Every time and as to every single subject you launch some authoritatively formulated statement, but one from which it is either immediately or in the very first follow-up clear that you are the one who doesn't know what he is taking about. I've attached a small sample Mathematica notebook; note that e.g. the integral is typed as <esc> int <esc>; that there's little manner to know less software-specific syntax; strip .txt due to stupid forum software.

You are very fundamentally a Mac user: utterly unaware of own ignorance and completely and utterly unaware of that fact as such. Could you not do me/us a favour and go use Mac OS instead?

[RetroRemix]

It's puzzles me that so many topics on a Linux forum involve long rambling and usually futile arguments about Windows. Is it the result of sentimentality for ones past or addiction to a dangerous habit?

*Shrugs* Maybe a bit of both?

With Windows itself being the sentimentality.. or bad habit?

[MurphCID]

Heck, I've as said even heard people saying that they heard Linux users saying that. It's just a matter of knowing whom to pay attention to...

Okay. When I started using Linux for the first time in my life, in March 2018, I did not know who to listen to.
And I do have a habit to always build based on the worst case scenarios I can come up with when I set up systems.

That is a good attitude since it helps prevent issues down the road.

[Portreve]

It's puzzles me that so many topics on a Linux forum involve long rambling and usually futile arguments about Windows. Is it the result of sentimentality for ones past or addiction to a dangerous habit?

Long Rambling:

Life is tough, and life is complicated. People looking for a simplistic explanation desire a simplistic understanding, or what has also been termed "lies we tell our children". Anywhere you visit where there are people who are truly knowledgeable and truly passionate about that knowledge don't normally do that.


Futile Arguments:

Anything is "futile" when faced with someone (or a group) who just doesn't care, or who's bought into an alternative (i.e. fictional) view of reality. I don't see that as a failure of argument so much as a failure of intellect.


Sentimentality For One's Past / Addiction To A Dangerous Habit:

Could you please explain what you mean? It's not obvious to me.

[MurphCID]

It's puzzles me that so many topics on a Linux forum involve long rambling and usually futile arguments about Windows. Is it the result of sentimentality for ones past or addiction to a dangerous habit?

Long Rambling:

Life is tough, and life is complicated. People looking for a simplistic explanation desire a simplistic understanding, or what has also been termed "lies we tell our children". Anywhere you visit where there are people who are truly knowledgeable and truly passionate about that knowledge don't normally do that.


Futile Arguments:

Anything is "futile" when faced with someone (or a group) who just doesn't care, or who's bought into an alternative (i.e. fictional) view of reality. I don't see that as a failure of argument so much as a failure of intellect.


Sentimentality For One's Past / Addiction To A Dangerous Habit:

Could you please explain what you mean? It's not obvious to me.

But I would also argue that a sign of a truly smart person is their ability to make the complex understandable, and to explain the truly difficult in a manner that even normal people can understand it. I laugh at those who state: "This is so complex/difficult/etc that only *I* and a few others can really understand it". This is normally spoken by self appointed elitists who want to appear wise.

[rick gen]

Does Linux on a Desktop Feel Like a "Cheap Hack"?

I'm sure most of that impression come from the graphics presentation, which is like we're still in the MS-DOS era.
It's because many Linux developers are still of the mindset that enhancing graphics clogs the system.
They're still catering to users with very old PCs that are basically become just toys to play with and have no real purpose.
A week ago I tried adding MX Linux in my system. The partitioning requirement at setup alone got me confused unlike in Mint or Ubuntu-based.
It's finally installed, to make the story short, after much googling and head scratching. This is what they call Debian, still can't get things straightforward after all these years.

Of course, I have to compare it with Mint Xfce, and, IMHO, it is not as good and doesn't feel home to me.
Graphics is still paltry, with devs still afraid to go all out enhancing graphics offering card games that look like they're from the stone age.

This boggles my mind because I had a laptop many years back with less than 1G ram and WinXP was running smoothly and overall elegant,
probably the best OS ever written. And here we have the number one Distro listed at DWatch and they still can't get their acts together
in this day and age.

[Moem]

This boggles my mind because I had a laptop many years back with less than 1G ram and WinXP was running smoothly and overall elegant,
probably the best OS ever written. And here we have the number one Distro listed at DWatch and they still can't get their acts together.

I feel that the answer to this mystery revolves around the word 'budget'.

[all41]

Does Linux on a Desktop Feel Like a "Cheap Hack"?

no
Linux on laptops gets closer