QT vs GTK, or the dead hand of Gnome

[rossdv8]

Out of curiosity, I installed kde-plasma-desktop from the repos, and ran that .desktop file shown above.
It still works, but 'hot switching' like that means Plasma retains all the Panels I have active in Xfce.
Of course, all I have to do is to mark them all to Hide Automatically to get a clean Plasma Desktop EXCEPT that I have to find the setting to turn OFF Show Icons on Desktop.

I might go ahead and tell my Panels to Hide later and do the screenshots with a clean Desktop, but for now, imagine the desktop without the Top and Side Panels and without all the Icons in the middle.

From memory, if I Log Out, and choose Plasma when I log back in, I should get a completely clean Plasma Desktop.

Here's what is looks like just logging in. Aside from the Wallpaper, there's not a lot of difference between Plasma and Xfce except that if I change from Compiz as my Window Manager, to the native Plasma one, I lose some Compiz desktop stuff, and gain the Plasma equivalent.

All the QT stuff though, is here. I could have installed two other Plasma options, but they pull in huge amounts of stuff that is not really needed until you install specific Apps. I have most of those Apps that I use, already installed, so I don;t need a heap of dependencies for stuff I won't ever use.

[rossdv8]

Ok, THAT was a horrible experience. I now remember why I stopped using Kubuntu and Neon, after Mint dropped KDE, and came back to Mint Xfce.
Basically, I liked the KDE 4 Plasma experience, but hated what they did to KDE in the later Plasma releases. I really do dislike 'Flat' monotone themes intensely.

I have all the QT styling / theming that I want in Mint Xfce. I'm pretty sure that installing kde-plasma-desktop would work in Cinnamon and allow logging in and out of Plasma quite smoothly, then adding only as much bloat as the QT Apps you actually want to use.
For now though, I'm not sure it was worth the install.

[Petermint]

All the talk about Plasma. I looked at the KDE site showing the latest plasma desktop. Lots of screen shots. A couple of nice icons. Based on the screen shots as shown on the KDE site:

Lots of things I would immediately switch off to make the screen more readable. The screen shots might be readable on a bigger screen but not my 15.5" notebook screen. The screen shots might be readable indoors on a high contrast OLED screen but not my LCD screen. I would not be able to use the Plasma desktop at the beach.

I did not go on to test memory or CPU resources. A couple of years ago, when I had 4 GB, KDE tipped my normal daily usage into paging. None of the other desktops hit that level. Now I have 16 GB which makes memory usage irrelevant for me. That 4 GB machine had a fast SSD which made disk resource usage irrelevant. Is the latest KDE lighter than the one from about three years ago?

I use Cinnamon with effects off because I like the speed and dislike the effects. KDE used to be a pig next to Cinnamon with effects off. How does it compare now?

Icons. The one thing I would change in LM Cinnamon if I was locked indoors for weeks and could not find anything interesting to do is to make the LM 21 Cinnamon desktop icon look less like the file manager icon. Everything else can stay the same.

OLED. I would switch to a black background with OLED to save power when on battery but only when on battery.

[Drugwash]

Is the latest KDE lighter than the one from about three years ago?

I installed Debian KDE a week or so ago in VBox. Chose the KDE version only in the idea of a better compatibility with Trinity R14 that I actually wanted to test. Obviously I also installed Trinity over KDE.

If you wanna know how KDE goes now I'll tell you this 2009 notebook has an i5 2.5GHz dual-core CPU, 4GB DDR3, 512MB NVIDIA and a classic HDD. The virtual image is located on a networked drive (over the wired LAN) on a more ancient machine. In settings the virtual Debian only has 1.8GB of RAM allowed. The notebook runs Mint 19.2 Cinnamon stuffed with a lot of extra libraries and whatnot.

If this machine is able to run KDE on those specs imagine how it would fare on a modern machine.

[rossdv8]

Running Mint 21 Xfce , but logging out and logging in to to Plasma AT the Login Window, there was pretty well no difference in speed or general performance.

When running Plasma Desktop 'in Mint Xfce' concurrently without logging out, RAM use is about 4.6GB, without a browser, which is about the same as the 4.5 - 4.8GB that Mint Xfce uses with Firefox running.
However some of that needs more investigating, as Mint 21 is using an average of 4.5GB of RAM with just Firefox running, while Mint 20.3 was using 2.5GB RAM with just Firefox running.
So for whatever reason, upgrading from Mint 20.3 to Mint 21 made the system use an extra 2GB RAM for the same job.

Anyway, Plasma is not as nice as Mint Xfce, and Mint Xfce is considerably nicer than Mint LXQT.
I really do like the way QT can be themed whether it is in plasma, or in anything else. But QT has in many ways moved on from what it used to be. These days it is all about FLAT and Monochrome styled themes. It's only dinosaurs like me that want a return the weird stuff like transparent Apps and 3D buttons.

[Drugwash]

But QT has in many ways moved on from what it used to be. These days it is all about FLAT and Monochrome styled themes.

Have you looked at Mint Cinnamon lately...?

I have easily installed (from the online theme store) a Vista Aero-like theme in KDE and it looks awesome together with the other window styles available by default. It's all about taking the time to choose what best suits your own taste, regardless of the defaults - which usually are aligned to this modern flat-brain style as you said.

[rossdv8]

I haven't looked at Cinnamon since Mint 20.3
I absolutely hate Cinnamon. Every time I install it I go through the same frustrations, and end up doing a complete install from scratch of Mint Xfce. So basically I will stay with Mint as long as it supports Xfce desktop. If Mint ever drops Xfce, I will build my own Linux again from bits of another Linux. I worked with Mepis, and PCLOS and a couple of others when they were starting out, so I know how to roll my own from the basis of someone else's.

My Mint is nothing like 'normal' Mint anyway, so it's not a big drama to rebuild again as I did when Mint dropped KDE.

[rossdv8]

Ok, I just booted Plasma desktop from Mint Xfce's Login Screen to compare RAM use, and opened Firefox so I would have the same thing running as I did when I commented on Mint Xfce's RAM usage in the earlier post.
I had to use Plasma's Menu to run Conky Manager 2, and I enabled my Conky Clock (LUA) and the Stats under it.
RAM for Mint 21 Xfce running Firefox with Mint Forums open was about 4.5GB. Mint 21 Plasma running Firefox with Mint forums open is 2.39GB. That is much more like the RAM use was in Mint 20.3 Xfce. So something radical changed in RAM Use with the Mint 21 upgrade.

I just realised I haven't got cairo-Dock running. I use Plasma Menu to start that, and my RAM leapt up to 2.5GB. Still more than 2GB Below Mint Xfce !! That was a surprise.

So here's the RAM use of Mint 21 Plasma Desktop running Firefox, Conky and Cairo-Dock.
Performance is just the same as Mint Xfce. I still haven't worked out how to get rid of those icons in the desktop Folder (and therefor - all over the desktop). In most other DEs I can find that in File Manager Preferences, but I can't see it anywhere obvious in Dolphin.

[Hoser Rob]

Out of curiosity, I installed kde-plasma-desktop from the repos...

Installing multiple DEs is a very good way to break the OS and a very poor way to make GTK vs Qt comparisons.

[Drugwash]

I will build my own Linux again from bits of another Linux [...] I know how to roll my own from the basis of someone else's.

Your knowledge may come in very handy at some point for myself and also for somebody else we might both know from around here.
But for now I'll keep exploring - time and disposition allowing - Debian and Q4OS.
Here's Debian 11 KDE short time after startup in VBox 5.2 (also note the Mint 19.2 Cinnamon theme that got effed up in Mint 21):

I still haven't worked out how to get rid of those icons in the desktop Folder

Linux (Mint) needs some old-school Windows developers in the team that know how to add a Show icons toggle item in the desktop context menu.

Installing multiple DEs is a very good way to break the OS and a very poor way to make GTK vs Qt comparisons.

Remember it's just a hobby discussion, nothing official or critical. We're just messing around, wasting the little time we got left in this corner of the Universe.

[rossdv8]

Out of curiosity, I installed kde-plasma-desktop from the repos...

Installing multiple DEs is a very good way to break the OS and a very poor way to make GTK vs Qt comparisons.

It can be for people coming from Windows or Mac across to Linux, as I keep reminding people on this forum. However it mostly depends on what your base Environment is, and which ones you add.

Installing stray Desktop Environments into Cinnamon can be a bit dodgy if it is anything that is not GTK based. Mate is not so bad. However I would be hesitant to install Plasma into Cinnamon or mate.
Because I use Mint Xfce though, it is very unlikely to cause any kind of issue. Xfce was designed from the start to be light weight and very highly configurable, and I've been using Xfce for 25 years now and KDE for 24 years. Basically ever since I switched away from Unix and my IBM days with OS/2 and Lotus Desktop.

So I'm not likely to have many problems in that regard. Which is why, whenever There's a post specifically about installing alternative desktop environments into Linux Min, I advise people to use Mint Xfce as the starting point. You can still break it, but it oly breaks little things, and then only a little bit.

This post was about QT vs GTK. That means running the Plasma Desktop on Mint is relevant, and again, frequent mentions of Mint Xfce as the preferred starting point, as well as occasional warning that installing Plasma into Cinnamon and Mate can be a silly idea, are just an advisory precaution.

That said. Linux was designed as an experimental OS. It has grown accordingly. KDE was the Desktop Environment that got most of us into Linux in the 90s. And the only reason we don't have Mint KDE any more, if I remember Clem's reply when asked about it at the time, was that it was a matter of spending the limited funds available to Mint wisely.
Ubuntu was maintaining a KDE release. Mint trying to keep up with the changes KDEwas going through seemed a waste of time.

So.
Installing alternative Desktop Environments 'can' break a distribution as cohesive as Mint, but that doesn't mean it 'will'.

The most risky DE t install into Mint is Plasma.

The least risky way to install Plasma into Mint is to:
Start with Mint Xfce.
Be aware that even though it is the least risky way - things can still go wrong.
Enable Kubuntu Backports PPA and then install kde-plasma-desktop from the Software Manager or Synaptic.
Install the KDE/Plasma Apps you particularly want from Synaptic or the Software Manager.
Keep Fingers Crossed.

While I've been typing this reply I set up multiple virtual desktops, and got my desktop switching with the mouse wheel enabled.
I also discovered that my Video Wallpaper still works on Plasma, but not properly and only on a single desktop, unlike Xfce where it runs across all the desktops.

[rossdv8]

Linux (Mint) needs some old-school Windows developers in the team that know how to add a Show icons toggle item in the desktop context menu.

Actually there's a one click solution in Mint, it's just Plasma where I can't find it at the moment. it 'should' be in Dolphin.

Oddly, I can do a workaround on a single virtual desktop, by playing a video as my wallpaper. The conky still displays on that VD, but the desktop folder's icons are gone.
Also oddly, with Firefox running and a few tabs open, plus conky and Dolphin and runnig a video as desktop wallpaper, the RAM use has only climbed from 2.5GB to 3.1GB with around a 15% cpu LOAD. So Plasma is playing quite nicely with Mint.

It is half past midnight. Time for my ugly sleep.

[Drugwash]

Actually there's a one click solution in Mint, it's just Plasma where I can't find it at the moment.

I can't see any in Mint 19 Cinnamon, therefore it doesn't exist. If they think hiding such a basic option in some shady dialog found after opening another one or two configuration dialogs is smart, logical and user-friendly - they are sorely mistaken.
I'd search it in KDE but in the 3-4 minutes I was away from the computer something (or someone such as one of my cats) happened and the system was frozen dead so I had to reboot (twice as the USB modem didn't want to connect the first time) and the VBox is not running anymore. I'll make another attempt soon.

Oh and I had installed the Trinity desktop on a Mint 19.3 Cinnamon a couple weeks ago and -amazingly! - it didn't blow up. Unfortunately I had to delete that VBox image later on in order to make room for the Debian 11 KDE+Trinity combo, otherwise I would've posted screenshots as proof.

Have a good sleep.

[Hoser Rob]

... A couple of years ago, when I had 4 GB, KDE tipped my normal daily usage into paging. None of the other desktops hit that level. ....

Did you have the ffrle indexing turned on? That's one of those things that works in an office environment. It speeds you up more than it slows the machine down. But for non office desktop use it's just too much of a system hog. It was turned off by default in my current MX KDE setup. In Plasma 4 it was turned on by default. I don't actually remember if it was turned off by default when I first installed Mint 18 KDE with Plasma 5 ... if it was I would have known to shut it off immendiately after installation after my Kubuntu (Plasma 4) expereince. In KDE 3 you couldn't even turn it off ... they've come a long way.

My MX KDE uses about 450Mb of RAM upon booting. Almost exactly the same as XFCE does. And KDE is the most powerful desktop I've ever used. I do actually like Xfce ... it has a refreshing simplicity and I'm using it right now ... but it's a pipsqueak compared to KDE.

[ivar]

These days it is all about FLAT and Monochrome styled themes. It's only dinosaurs like me that want a return the weird stuff like transparent Apps and 3D buttons.

Not a fan of that flat style either, I hope that trend is well past its peak now

Installing multiple DEs is a very good way to break the OS and a very poor way to make GTK vs Qt comparisons.

That's how I broke my very first linux install, lol! A perfectly good running Mandrake setup. Going from Gnome to KDE, then to various windows managers like IceWM made a royal mess of everything

[MurphCID]

That's how I broke my very first linux install, lol! A perfectly good running Mandrake setup. Going from Gnome to KDE, then to various windows managers like IceWM made a royal mess of everything

HA! I remember that on Mandrake, you got ALL the DE's and some window managers installed and you could play around and find the one you liked best.

[ivar]

.. even if you could , it doesn't mean you should , lol!

[MurphCID]

.. even if you could , it doesn't mean you should , lol!

No, so very true. Although it was so neat to be able to try out different ones, Mandrake was just so cool back in the day, even though I knew nothing about Linux.

[rossdv8]

Oh and I had installed the Trinity desktop on a Mint 19.3 Cinnamon a couple weeks ago and -amazingly! - it didn't blow up.

I'm not saying Cinnamon can't survive installing Plasma.
Just that I hate Cinnamon, and that I think there were less conflicts when I installed stuff in Xfce, than when I last installed stuff in Cinnamon. Mostly it was in theming and things that relied on Cinnamony Bits to stay sane.

Xfce doesn't care at all that my Default File Manager is Dolphin and that my other Default Apps are all KDE stuff. Even though I have half a dozen File Managers installed, I use Dolphin more often than not. However I have a modified Thunar that is used for some specific stuff, and I have modified things so that all my my File Managers except one show 3D previews of certain files I use regularly (.stl and .gcode for 3D printing).

I really prefer QT and have as much of Mint Xfce running QT Apps as possible. I also have 'Appearance' and a couple of other GTK Styling/Theming Apps to keep all the GTK stuff as consistent as possible, plus a couple of QT Styling and Theming Apps to keep that stuff consistent.

My Theming/Styling is pretty complex, and much has been carried over since about Mint 17 when I settled on 'what I like'.
What I like is far different from what other people like and what I need.

So in one Panel I can access Appearance, Compiz Contfig Settings Manager, Gnome-Tweaks to Tweak Gnome, GTK-ChTheme to tweak Gnome some more, Desktop Settings, (to quickly switch between Window Managers, which is usually only needed if I want to access Gnome tweaks),LX-Appearance (Some of the QT adjustments), Qt5 Settings for the main Qt adjustments (I really should stop using that capital T), Kvantum Manager to tweak QT a bit further, KDE Settings - that one is pretty obvious - it modifies bits of Plasma/KDE to make it fit closer to my GTK stuff, Emerald Theme Manager because I still use Emerald for GTK styling mods, Compiz Theme Selector to modify some of the behind the scenes stuff that escapes 'Appearance'.

It all means that I can fine tune QT and GTK in Mint, to my personal lack of taste. Just for fun, Just because I don;t like any Distro or OS for that matter 'locking my system to 'their ideas about how my desktop should look and work', and Just because 'we can'.

[rossdv8]

.. even if you could , it doesn't mean you should , lol!

No, so very true. Although it was so neat to be able to try out different ones, Mandrake was just so cool back in the day, even though I knew nothing about Linux.

Mandrake was the first OS I ever had that allowed completely transparent Networking. Plug in another computer on the network, and it was recognised and file sharing was automatic. No messing around typing smb.conf stuff, or any other dramas.
It was horribly insecure, so it could easily be toggled on and off. But it was amazing for a simple 3 or 4 machine network where we were going to be connecting all the computers anyway.

It disappeared after a short time, probably because someone made a fuss about security issues. And I have never seen it on any distro or OS for that matter, since.

E D I T:
Probably the only thing I have today that works so simply is NoMachine VNC. If I have NoMachine running in the background, I can boot any machine on the Wired or WiFi network, and it is recognised as soon as it is fully logged in. From there, a double click on its icon and it is in a VNC window, and drag and drop file sharing, cut/copy/paste between apps on the various machines and other features are immediately enabled.