Why do new people give up on Linux?

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Portreve
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Portreve »

I think the #1 reason people give up on Linux is it's not what they thought it was. In other words, they're looking for Windows, and it's not that. Linux is not Windows (to borrow from another thread's title.)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Dirkoir »

Some quick thoughts:

One may not actually leave Linux but the current distro. (these days I sometimes glimpse at other distros because of having been hit by problems on Linux Mint, for example the complexity of upgrading to a new version which runs into a wall of my lack of time (I am still stuck on LM 17 now and wondering if a rollover Linux distro like openSUSE might be preferable, after all... yes, rollover updating gives me less control of functionality, which is one reason why I picked LM in the first place, but these days I just lack time and energy to update a tool (OS) for other things that I am already overburdened with (like getting back into the programming job market))

One may leave early or late:

1. Early, if one just tried a Linux distro or two recently and found the learning curve too steep.

2. Late, if one got over the leaning curve hump and enjoyed Linux for a few years, but eventually runs into problems that make one reconsider.


Problems to make one reconsider:

(A) Interfaces being changed by the OS developers without the users' consent when OS version upgrades are forced on us. (the main reason why I switched form Windows 8 (ugh!) to LM 17 5-6 years ago) -- I know young developers think it's cool to change them, ('modernize') them, make computer interfaces more like smart phone interfaces, remove scroll bars and menus (are you kidding me?!?), but the rest of humanity needs computers (and their OSs!) as tools to perform their daily tasks. Imagine if a kid in our family were constantly changing your other tools on you: switching from right-hand scissors to left-hand-scissors, spoons to forks, pencils to paint brushes, chairs to stools, a sitting toilet to a standing toilet, sneakers to high heels... all without opt-ins for you or any (findable?) chance to switch back to the interface you are used to and which you need to not waste time re-adjusting or coping with missing necessary things that your developer considered unnecessary. The same goes with comfort: switching from coffee to tea, then to mineral water, then root beer... never giving you a choice. It's frustrating and makes fresh-install OS updates (followed by all the configurations and software installs you did before and now have to do all over again) not only way too time consuming but also threatening in terms of losing the interfaces you were comfortable with.

(B) Main issues not being dealt with properly. For example Timeshift. I just was hit with two weird and frustrating events: Firefox losing SOME (not all!) login data and a restore from Timeshift of the logins.json file being impossible because it turns out Timeshift has stopped the weekly snapshot making I set up YEARS AGO without ever telling me about it! So, Timeshift is not reliable. (I don't recall something like this ever going wrong in my Windows use years -- the rollback there was always reliable). Has LM's "Backup Tool" ever be fixed, btw? I know it has been left broken for years. A simple GUI operated data backup tool common on other OSs, also has never come my way, yet. It should best be a built in part of a good distro, not requiring users to do complex online searches, comparings, try-outs, etc. Some things are just of basic top priority and should be treated that way. Back when Apple came out with its first Macintosh computers in the eighties, one of the things that were very convincing were that a word processor, spellchecker, and paint software came right out of the box with the OS. Then HyperCard was added as another free inclusion to the classic Mac OS, another super tool for users. LM includes a bunch of necessary things (like LibreOffice), which is good. It should probably also preinstall PlayOnLinux and VirtualBox and present them in its tutorial... But I digress. Handling critical things like data safety properly (Timeshift, BackUp Tool...) is a top priority. When people lose important stuff on their OS, they are forced to look for other OSs.

Nuff said. Just some quick thoughts. ;-)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Barbados99 »

Dirkoir wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:10 am
Some quick thoughts:

One may not actually leave Linux but the current distro. (these days I sometimes glimpse at other distros because of having been hit by problems on Linux Mint, for example the complexity of upgrading to a new version which runs into a wall of my lack of time (I am still stuck on LM 17 now and wondering if a rollover Linux distro like openSUSE might be preferable, after all... yes, rollover updating gives me less control of functionality, which is one reason why I picked LM in the first place, but these days I just lack time and energy to update a tool (OS) for other things that I am already overburdened with (like getting back into the programming job market))
It is an investment of time to install Mint 20, but in your case it may be time well spent when you consider that you will have 5 years to use it as it's a long term supported version. You also might enjoy the Mint 20 XFCE in particular. It is very easy to quickly configure it to exactly what you want. I am like you in that I don't want to waste time being frustrated with my operating system. I just want it to work, so I can focus on using my software each day to get things done. I did a clean installation of Mint 20 XFCE in less than 30 minutes, and had it tailored to my particular needs within about an hour after that. By that time I had my programs set up and my data from past years in place on the new installation. It felt so good to have everything "just the way I want it" on a computer with a fresh and clean installation. For that (for me) it was worth the 90 minutes of work. Now, over the next week or so I did tweak various things as I fine-tuned everything... but that was easy. And again, once it is done, then I can look forward to enjoying the fruit of my labor for a long long time. And during the tweaking with various program settings, it is a great opportunity to consider changing a few things for improvement. Most settings I keep the same, but there are always a few things I do change to refine my setup, making it better.

The motivation for me is that I just tell myself how good it will be to have everything fresh and new - and running like a Swiss watch once I do this. LOL, by the time I'm getting ready to do a fresh installation on my computer, my old installation has accumulated a bunch of unnecessary stuff and really needs a good cleaning (I find myself laughing a bit when I realize how much junk I've kept... it's like "why on earth did I keep this and that" and I get rid of a lot of junk (and programs) I don't need or want. Two things that helped me keep the frustration to a minimum:

1. I plan before I do the actual install. I think it all through and write down exactly what I want in the new install setup as far as organizing my stuff. Usually I end up with the new installation being better organized than the one it replaces.

2. I make certain that I have my stuff backed up so I can install it easily in the new world.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by [J] »

I've tried Linux at various times over the past few years & while I really, really, really want to use it exclusively, I keep going back to Windows because of the software. I use graphics software a lot and the graphics software for Linux, well,in my opinion, leaves a lot to be desired. The things I can do in my Windows software (preference is Paint Shop Pro) in one or two clicks, takes going from one tool to another in Gimp, for instance. And sometimes, I take a photo or graphic into several different Linux software to be able to accomplish what I could in just one Windows program.

It's not that I'm unwilling to learn Gimp, or Krita, or Pinta or any of the rest offered (& I have learned for the most part), it just seems that you go around your elbow to get to your thumb in most of them or they're too specialized. It seems that developers are so enthused about coding, that the software isn't as intuitively usable as it could be. Then, if you do find some decent software, there are little things that aren't included that would make it so much better. For instance, I've been downloading various programs to try to find one that works for the things I do and today I downloaded G-label which is pretty specialized but works for some of the things I do with graphics. It works well except for one teeny, tiny thing - there's no option to rotate an image! That means you have to take the image into Gimp or another software, rotate it, save it, then add it to your label again to see if it works at that rotation! Of course, you could accomplish label making in Gimp but it takes forever to set it all up there. Anyway, I'd think that would be one option the developers would include without a second thought. And what about the lack of being able to print something in Krita? And the lack of support for .psd files in most Linux graphic software? (I can kind of see that since .psd is a proprietory file format although all kinds of Windows software do support it).

Then there's the software that shows promise but ends up being abandoned by the developer. I realize most of the Linux software is free but perhaps there needs to be more incentive for someone to produce software (graphic or otherwise) that really works as well as Windows software. I've purchased software when I was a Windows user and I'd be willing to purchase really good software for Linux also.

Sorry to be so long-winded & I do know about Wine and other options for using Windows software in Linux but I would prefer Linux software for my Linux machine - I'd just like it to be more useable. To boil it all down, I may go back to Windows because doing most anything in the Linux software I've used so far takes a lot longer and is usually quite a hassle.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by exploder »

I have an opposite point of view. I wonder why so many people stay with Windows? I tried using Windows 10 for a year and it drove me nuts! Apps I used had to be downloaded from different sites. Updates taking hours to download then failing to install! Major breakage after feature updates, that is after fighting to get them installed! Also, duplicated features. How many web browsers does a person need? Two sets of system settings instead of having them in one place.

Windows 10 looks nice and high end games run better, that's the extent of it's good qualities in my opinion. Windows and Mac OS look modern, Linux is lacking in that respect. Microsoft and Apple pay people a lot of money to make their products look nice.

People tend to think Linux is a free version of Windows and expect it to behave exactly the same. When it doesn't, they feel it's too hard to learn. How hard is it to understand that just about everything comes from the default repos? How hard is it to understand that the update manager takes care of updating everything?Is it easier for people to download apps from a dozen different sites?

I can understand people needing Windows because of specific software needs, the right tool for the job in some cases. I am not saying Windows does not have it's use, some things run on Windows only after all. I would think that the regular user would have a far easier time with Linux though, especially with Mint or Ubuntu.

People like shiny things, Windows 10 looks streamlined and modern. Most high end games use direct x and Windows has had it for decades. We have Steam and it works for a lot of great games but Windows is still better as far as gamer's are concerned. We can also use Office under Linux now that Microsoft has made a web version that runs on any platform. I mention that because so many say they can't work without it.

It is all just my opinion but most regular users would find Linux to be a lot easier to use and maintain than Windows if they just gave it some time. I personally think if Linux distros were more streamlined and modern looking they would gain more user share. Canonical for example made the right choice by going with the community theme, it's a step in the right direction!

I have installed Mint and Ubuntu for many regular users and they have had no issues. They took the time to get used to how it worked and found that it required little to no maintenance to keep it running. People tend to think they have to know the command line to run Linux and that is not true these days. It's good to know some commands with ANY OS but it is not essential in daily use.

Maybe I look at things different. :)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rambo919 »

exploder wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:01 pm
snip
To put things into perspective, if most of us could have stayed on win7 and it did not become a absolute mess of an OS.... we would have. It's not about how shiny it is it's about how effortless it is to do the things you need to.

Windows has superior software, it always has, largely because people can more easily monetize windows software and thus code for users not for themselves.

It's easier to install software offline on windows, people tend to take a good internet connection for granted but this is not the case for everyone. Sure most software requires internet but that's not a problem unless you make it one but we cannot speak on that without someone getting banned.... censorship is nice aint it?

Yes windows has problems but so does linux, at the end of the day people stick to the OS that gives them the least amount of problems...... for many linux gives many more practical problems than windows does for a variety of reasons.

Also there is the problem of office suites.... as terrible and complacent as M$ can be their office suite is still the best one out there.... I just plain loathe outlook myself but that has to do with ancient code standards that keeps getting a facelift, pst files that need a complete replacement and ost files that are essentially badly implemented DRM. But that said word and excel are the very best at what they do.

We do have the odd twilight where linux is starting by default to have better settings solutions than win10..... a touch screen interface is NOT a good idea on a PC, it never was and never will be. Network settings alone is a nightmare on win10 machines nvm the mostly useless connected hardware replacement..... but of course linux has no real equivalent anyway there so.....
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:11 am
Yes windows has problems but so does linux, at the end of the day people stick to the OS that gives them the least amount of problems...... for many linux gives many more practical problems than windows does for a variety of reasons.
My partner is using Linux Mint because of what you (almost) say, "for many Windows gives many more practical problems than Linux does for a variety of reasons"

A year of "viruses" written by Microsoft, needing IT support (me) every month, plus ending up with a complete wiping of her system by Microsoft means Microsoft could NOT create a bigger problem.
Also there is the problem of office suites.... as terrible and complacent as M$ can be their office suite is still the best one out there
Except you can't edit PDFs with it and the slightly older versions can't read Open Document Format. We have not found a job that LibreOffice can't do which means for the majority it will do all that is needed.

PDF editing? I've had to edit hundreds (not exaggerating) before putting them up on the web, to two websites actually.
I just plain loathe outlook myself
And there are those I've known who have had problems with it crashing completely when the FREE Thunderbird has never given problems.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rambo919 »

RollyShed wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:26 am
My partner is using Linux Mint because of what you (almost) say, "for many Windows gives many more practical problems than Linux does for a variety of reasons"

A year of "viruses" written by Microsoft, needing IT support (me) every month, plus ending up with a complete wiping of her system by Microsoft means Microsoft could NOT create a bigger problem.
No two use cases are the same, I have myself never had that kind of problem but you hear things..... also I NEVER put anything in the win10 libraries unless I need to just in case.
Except you can't edit PDFs with it and the slightly older versions can't read Open Document Format. We have not found a job that LibreOffice can't do which means for the majority it will do all that is needed.

PDF editing? I've had to edit hundreds (not exaggerating) before putting them up on the web, to two websites actually.
For PDF editing Nitro PDF does everything and more, way better than any other solution I have tried libreoffice but it just does not do it as well. It also has a feature for reducing size which often is of greater help than you would think. Yes you can also do that with gimp but the results are not always that great and it takes a lot more work. The best for Linux I know of is Master PDF but it pales in comparison.
And there are those I've known who have had problems with it crashing completely when the FREE Thunderbird has never given problems.
Nothing is perfect but yes, I always stick to Thunderbird where possible.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:36 am
RollyShed wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:26 am
My partner is using Linux Mint because of what you (almost) say, "for many Windows gives many more practical problems than Linux does for a variety of reasons"

A year of "viruses" written by Microsoft, needing IT support (me) every month, plus ending up with a complete wiping of her system by Microsoft means Microsoft could NOT create a bigger problem.
No two use cases are the same, I have myself never had that kind of problem but you hear things..... also I NEVER put anything in the win10 libraries unless I need to just in case.
Win10 library?

What happened, happened to about a million users in Oct 2018. I noted it was still happening in May 2020. Total erasing of everything except the basic operating system. In this case I'd copied everything over to a Linux disk before it got erased off the Windows disk - fortunately.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rambo919 »

RollyShed wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:30 am
Win10 library?

What happened, happened to about a million users in Oct 2018. I noted it was still happening in May 2020. Total erasing of everything except the basic operating system. In this case I'd copied everything over to a Linux disk before it got erased off the Windows disk - fortunately.
As I understood it it was just the libraries erasing everything linked to them, same bug hit both Vista and XP in the past.... not sure about XP though.

So was it just the partition that was "reset to defaults" or all connected HDD's?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by [J] »

exploder wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:01 pm
I have an opposite point of view. I wonder why so many people stay with Windows?

I have installed Mint and Ubuntu for many regular users and they have had no issues. They took the time to get used to how it worked and found that it required little to no maintenance to keep it running. People tend to think they have to know the command line to run Linux and that is not true these days. It's good to know some commands with ANY OS but it is not essential in daily use.

Maybe I look at things different. :)
I said above that I really wanted to use Linux exclusively and I'm very aware of Windows shortcomings and the advantages of Linux, especially Mint which is why I wanted to switch.

If all I wanted to do was browse the web and email (btw - I've used Thunderbird with Windows for years), then I'd be singing the Linux praise song. But, I use a computer mainly for graphics work and Linux graphic software just doesn't measure up & it's not that I'm too lazy to learn it. I started using Gimp, Krita and Pinta on my Windows machines long before I officially switched to Linux exclusively on this laptop. I wanted the change to be as seamless as possible so I made a real effort to know as much as possible beforehand.

The question was 'Why do new people give up on Linux?' If I do go back to Windows, it would because of the graphics software, or lack of it, for Linux since that's mainly why I use a computer. I have no problem with any other Linux software I've used. Libre Office & Thunderbird are the only other software I've used on a regular basis and they both work well for my needs - in fact, I used them both with Windows. It's just that when you need something specific, you need it, and unfortunately, Linux doesn't have any really outstanding, intuitive, graphics software. If there was any that met my needs, I'd be a happy Linux camper indeed.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Barbados99 »

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:11 am

Yes windows has problems but so does linux, at the end of the day people stick to the OS that gives them the least amount of problems...
I agree with you. And all operating systems do have problems. And all of them require a learning curve to master them. My own experience has been that my Windows machines have had significantly more problems than my Linux Mint installs. Mint gives me the least amount of problems. I finally got rid of my last Windows installation and it felt so good to not have to deal with Windows issues anymore. Mint for me "just works" and I can forget about my OS and just enjoy doing my work without the painful Windows problems. Microsoft Windows will be 35 years old as an OS this fall. Microsoft's net annual income is ~40 billion dollars a year. It is pretty sad that their work product after 35 years and countless billions of dollars in revenue - is still so problematic to use. Mint is free and gives me fewer problems and headaches. But that is just my own personal experience.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

rambo919 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:40 am
RollyShed wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:30 am
Win10 library?

What happened, happened to about a million users in Oct 2018. I noted it was still happening in May 2020. Total erasing of everything except the basic operating system. In this case I'd copied everything over to a Linux disk before it got erased off the Windows disk - fortunately.
As I understood it it was just the libraries erasing everything linked to them, same bug hit both Vista and XP in the past.... not sure about XP though.

So was it just the partition that was "reset to defaults" or all connected HDD's?
Not partitions, separate disks. It only happened on the Windows disk though I might have disconnected (unlikely) the Linux disk, before trying again to get the Windows disk to boot. Booting a disk, one rather than the other, was done by swapping SATA cables.
It went from Win 10 to Win7 leaving no indication it had ever been used before for anything.

Never ever had problems with WinXP.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MartyMint »

The reason for many users not straying from Windows (and Mac) is that after nearly a century of corporate propaganda, people have been brainwashed into believing that "if it's free, it can't be any good...otherwise someone would be seeking profit from it".

The same reason that folks drive past mom-and-pop diners to get fed slop at McDonalds.
Brightly coloured lights and clowns with catchy advertising slogans...and all that.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Minux1 »

MartyMint wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:12 pm
The reason for many users not straying from Windows (and Mac) is that after nearly a century of corporate propaganda, people have been brainwashed into believing that "if it's free, it can't be any good...otherwise someone would be seeking profit from it".

The same reason that folks drive past mom-and-pop diners to get fed slop at McDonalds.
Brightly coloured lights and clowns with catchy advertising slogans...and all that.
Don't tempt fate ... that will come with time ... in the meantime the Red Hat boys aren't hurting financially.
Enjoy while you can.
All pervasive GREED always wins out in the long run.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Minux1 »

MartyMint wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:12 pm
The reason for many users not straying from Windows (and Mac) is that after nearly a century of corporate propaganda, people have been brainwashed into believing that "if it's free, it can't be any good...otherwise someone would be seeking profit from it".

The same reason that folks drive past mom-and-pop diners to get fed slop at McDonalds.
Brightly coloured lights and clowns with catchy advertising slogans...and all that.
Don't tempt fate ... that will come with time ... in the meantime the Red Hat boys aren't hurting financially.
Enjoy while you can.
All pervasive GREED always wins out in the long run.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Portreve »

MartyMint wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:12 pm
The reason for many users not straying from Windows (and Mac) is that after nearly a century of corporate propaganda, people have been brainwashed into believing that "if it's free, it can't be any good...otherwise someone would be seeking profit from it".

The same reason that folks drive past mom-and-pop diners to get fed slop at McDonalds.
Brightly coloured lights and clowns with catchy advertising slogans...and all that.
“otherwise someone would be selling profit from it”

According to Bruce Perins and Eric S. Raymond, attractiveness to businesses was a motivating factor in the development of the term "open source" as an intended replacement for "free software". I would argue that Richard Stallman should have picked a better term initially.

If you haven't already, go watch Revolution OS, which is freely available to view on YouTube.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Minux1 »

Commerce (politically correct for greed) won't wait long to fill a marketing niche created by general dissatisfaction with and disgust at the intimidating arrogance of MS and Apple. It's already started with Zorin (there may be others) offering an extra spiffy version of their desktop OS for a cost. Relative anonymity was our friend for years. Linux desktop distros are becoming more popular as people look for MS/Apple replacements and I expect that premium versions of distros involving a fee to become more prevalent. That's how it starts.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by [J] »

Minux1 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:34 pm
Commerce (politically correct for greed) won't wait long to fill a marketing niche created by general dissatisfaction with and disgust at the intimidating arrogance of MS and Apple. It's already started with Zorin (there may be others) offering an extra spiffy version of their desktop OS for a cost. Relative anonymity was our friend for years. Linux desktop distros are becoming more popular as people look for MS/Apple replacements and I expect that premium versions of distros involving a fee to become more prevalent. That's how it starts.
You're probably right although I believe people should be rewarded for their hard work - who can work for free for long? Personally, I don't believe that free indicates inferior - I'm on a fixed income and really appreciate all the free distros/software but I am willing to pay for something that goes above and beyond.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Barbados99 »

[J] wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:46 am
Minux1 wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:34 pm
Commerce (politically correct for greed) won't wait long to fill a marketing niche created by general dissatisfaction with and disgust at the intimidating arrogance of MS and Apple. It's already started with Zorin (there may be others) offering an extra spiffy version of their desktop OS for a cost. Relative anonymity was our friend for years. Linux desktop distros are becoming more popular as people look for MS/Apple replacements and I expect that premium versions of distros involving a fee to become more prevalent. That's how it starts.
You're probably right although I believe people should be rewarded for their hard work - who can work for free for long? Personally, I don't believe that free indicates inferior - I'm on a fixed income and really appreciate all the free distros/software but I am willing to pay for something that goes above and beyond.
I am in a similar situation. My wife and I are retired and we have a limited budget now. Having free software is a real blessing. But I do believe in giving back to the Mint community who provides this wonderful resource to have free software. We have signed up to give a small amount monthly to help the Mint project. We did this by joining the Linux Mint Patron community that helps the Mint Team sustain and grow their project. As a Patron you get access to the Patreon community feed where you can interact with the team and the other patrons. For us it just seemed like the right thing to do. Here is the link to the project:

https://www.patreon.com/linux_mint

We just give $5 a month. I know that's not much but even though we are on a retirement budget I wanted to give something back in appreciation for all the Mint Team provides us.
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