Why do new people give up on Linux?

Chat about Linux in general
Minux1
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Minux1 »

Enjoy while you can.
Linux has been the main event on the commercial side with trunkline & high traffic volume commercial sector servers for years.
Now myriad quality desktop distros are showing up on the radar and you no longer have to be a MIT compsci grad to install, run and maintain them and most of them are still free for now.
Would rather see "our" talent stay with Linux rather than migrate to MS & Apple.
It must be frustrating for "our" key developer gurus to see their peers pulling down high 6 figures or more + benefits, perks & pension on the commercial side.
Eventually the talent will follow the money.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by exploder »

@ [J]

In you case Windows is the right tool for the job. Same goes for large corporations that still require IE. I said in my earlier post that there are specific use cases where Windows is a better choice.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by motoryzen »

jpete wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:09 am
shane wrote:
jpete wrote:I'm not a complete noob when it comes to computers, just with Linux. And from searching for answers, I find that there is a basic level of understanding that a lot of these threads ASSUME people have. It's just not so.
The way I see it, newbies assume that everyone knows that they are newbies... :lol:
If I'm posing in a forum called "Newbie Questions", then I think it pretty safe to assume.

But lot's of answers start out with "Just edit your xxxx file"

"Just" is the worst four letter word in the English language.

Newbies need "who, what, where, when and WHY" answered for them. Not some off the cuff answer that assumes they know where to go to make the change needed.

I went round and round with Ubuntu and eventually got fed up and went back to XP.

This time around I'm giving Mint a try. I'm still having issues but I think they are solvable. If they aren't, then Win7 is only $200. I don't want to spend it, but I don't have time to mess around with a futile project.
--Jpete. I'm not Linux expert, but I'm always reasonably eager to try help solving problems. What problems are you encountering in particular? Or what things about Windows do you miss having and want in Linux that is possible to accomplish?

For me it was:
1. A blue light filter that is just as good overall as Windows 10's "night light" and "adjust strength". Redshift was the answer for me. I just had to figure out how to make it work correctly ( my thanks to trytip » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:55 pm ..about half way scrolled down the page ) . viewtopic.php?t=265618

2. The stock mouse scroll wheel speed of browsers in Linux mint and manjar OOTB are way too slow. Thus. imwheel became my best friend
https://io.bikegremlin.com/11541/linux- ... oll-speed/

3, Ensuring my screen runs at the native 144hz. Before linux mint 20, in cinnamon at least, one had to use a specific xrandr terminal command, run it and then set it as a custom command to automatically run upon system start up. Now in LM 20 cinnamon, it's a simple gui adjustment drop down option ( as it always should have been. )

4. Gaming. With the only exception being Warcraft III 2 disc original retail Battle Chest, ALL of my games now work. A. Install the latest wine using the instructions directly from winehq.org. B. Install Lutris from instructions from that website. C. Steam and BEFORE downloading and installing any games. Enabled the beta proton deal ( always has latest). What won't work in Steam, chances are will work in Wine managed by Lutris. The key that makes Lutris gold and simple enough is you learn by an individual game-install-basis...where the game is installed, the launcher aka .exe file, and develop the understanding of ensuring the executable and Wine prefix paths ( as in locations of the end folders) need to both be under the same main folder and it will work.

You might have to enable or disable certain things like Esync, dxvk, etc as well as " Wine Configuration" adjustments. These things are the experimental part depending on the individual game.

Cheers--
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MrEen »

Jeepers motoryzen, you're responding to a ten and half year old post! :shock:
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Portreve
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Portreve »

MrEen wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:41 pm
Jeepers motoryzen, you're responding to a ten and half year old post! :shock:
Actually, MrEen, you need to cast your attention back just a wee bit further... (and believe me, it really was his full five pence worth. :lol: )

jpcy wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:39 pm
<rant frustration="50%" whine="33%" emotion="100%">
If I can put my 5 pence worth in...
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

MrEen wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:41 pm
Jeepers motoryzen, you're responding to a ten and half year old post! :shock:
#1 was "by chris0101 » 15 Feb 2010 07:29" if you really want to know.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MrEen »

Thanks, but I was referring to the big quote, to a very old post, then addressing the user that hasn't even been here for over 3 years. :wink:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Dirkoir »

Barbados99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:47 am
Dirkoir wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:10 am
... upgrading to a new version ... I am still stuck on LM 17 ...
It is an investment of time to install Mint 20, but in your case it may be time well spent when you consider that you will have 5 years to use it as it's a long term supported version. You also might enjoy the Mint 20 XFCE in particular. It is very easy to quickly configure it to exactly what you want. I am like you in that I don't want to waste time being frustrated with my operating system. I just want it to work, so I can focus on using my software each day to get things done.
Thanks, Barbados99. Yes, we both don't want to waste our time.

Well, 5 years support looked OK when I started with LM 17, but by now they no longer are sufficient for me, and Linux Mint gets new versions every 2 years or so (ugh!). If they want to come up with major steps that quickly, perhaps the developers should switch to a rollover distro with a rollback (an update-undo) built in for users whose important software stops working after an update, so they can roll back and use their software on the older LM version until the LM developers have fixed the compatibility problem, or to then permit an update again but with disruptive portions left out. Not sure, just pondering about a potentially perfect solution.

Thanks for the XFCE suggestion. This brings up another issue: how to choose between XFCE, MATE, and Cinnamon? I have spent some time looking for an informative comparison both here on these forums and elsewhere like streamed videos. Nothing helpful found so far. Only babbling about colors, icons, and such. What I want to know are things like: Do I get several workspaces in all three of them or only in Cinnamon? Is the file manager functionally different among them? Are some important software packages left out of some of them and not available in the repository or won't work on some of these three LM variants?

A link from someone to a serious comparison of these three LM variants (XFCE, MATE, Cinnamon) would be great. :-)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by revmacian »

Dirkoir wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:37 pm
Barbados99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:47 am
Dirkoir wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:10 am
... upgrading to a new version ... I am still stuck on LM 17 ...
It is an investment of time to install Mint 20, but in your case it may be time well spent when you consider that you will have 5 years to use it as it's a long term supported version. You also might enjoy the Mint 20 XFCE in particular. It is very easy to quickly configure it to exactly what you want. I am like you in that I don't want to waste time being frustrated with my operating system. I just want it to work, so I can focus on using my software each day to get things done.
Thanks, Barbados99. Yes, we both don't want to waste our time.

Well, 5 years support looked OK when I started with LM 17, but by now they no longer are sufficient for me, and Linux Mint gets new versions every 2 years or so (ugh!). If they want to come up with major steps that quickly, perhaps the developers should switch to a rollover distro with a rollback (an update-undo) built in for users whose important software stops working after an update, so they can roll back and use their software on the older LM version until the LM developers have fixed the compatibility problem, or to then permit an update again but with disruptive portions left out. Not sure, just pondering about a potentially perfect solution.

Thanks for the XFCE suggestion. This brings up another issue: how to choose between XFCE, MATE, and Cinnamon? I have spent some time looking for an informative comparison both here on these forums and elsewhere like streamed videos. Nothing helpful found so far. Only babbling about colors, icons, and such. What I want to know are things like: Do I get several workspaces in all three of them or only in Cinnamon? Is the file manager functionally different among them? Are some important software packages left out of some of them and not available in the repository or won't work on some of these three LM variants?

A link from someone to a serious comparison of these three LM variants (XFCE, MATE, Cinnamon) would be great. :-)
I've spent around 20 years using Linux distros and I've found that most comparisons are based primarily on opinion - "which one works best for my use case". Use cases are rarely identical, one person's trash is another person's treasure. The best advice I can give is to try the various desktop environments via live USB and take them for a test drive. Only then will you know which one works best for you.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Barbados99 »

revmacian wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:44 pm
Dirkoir wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 1:37 pm
Barbados99 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:47 am


It is an investment of time to install Mint 20, but in your case it may be time well spent when you consider that you will have 5 years to use it as it's a long term supported version. You also might enjoy the Mint 20 XFCE in particular. It is very easy to quickly configure it to exactly what you want. I am like you in that I don't want to waste time being frustrated with my operating system. I just want it to work, so I can focus on using my software each day to get things done.
Thanks, Barbados99. Yes, we both don't want to waste our time.

Well, 5 years support looked OK when I started with LM 17, but by now they no longer are sufficient for me, and Linux Mint gets new versions every 2 years or so (ugh!). If they want to come up with major steps that quickly, perhaps the developers should switch to a rollover distro with a rollback (an update-undo) built in for users whose important software stops working after an update, so they can roll back and use their software on the older LM version until the LM developers have fixed the compatibility problem, or to then permit an update again but with disruptive portions left out. Not sure, just pondering about a potentially perfect solution.

Thanks for the XFCE suggestion. This brings up another issue: how to choose between XFCE, MATE, and Cinnamon? I have spent some time looking for an informative comparison both here on these forums and elsewhere like streamed videos. Nothing helpful found so far. Only babbling about colors, icons, and such. What I want to know are things like: Do I get several workspaces in all three of them or only in Cinnamon? Is the file manager functionally different among them? Are some important software packages left out of some of them and not available in the repository or won't work on some of these three LM variants?

A link from someone to a serious comparison of these three LM variants (XFCE, MATE, Cinnamon) would be great. :-)
I've spent around 20 years using Linux distros and I've found that most comparisons are based primarily on opinion - "which one works best for my use case". Use cases are rarely identical, one person's trash is another person's treasure. The best advice I can give is to try the various desktop environments via live USB and take them for a test drive. Only then will you know which one works best for you.
+1
That's a great advice and so true. It is so refreshing that we have so many good choices when it comes to Linux. I love that about it. But with choice comes responsibility to invest the time to see just what is best for you. Everyone is unique in what matters most to them in an OS. And once a person finds a good match for them in an OS, then there is a 2nd (and greater) time investment doing a deep-dive to learn that system well. Learning anything new takes time. I get a bit frustrated when people don't want to put in the work but then complain about Linux. Heck, I had to invest a lot of time initially to learn how to use my first computer. That was before Windows was even around as an option. When I first used Windows I had to invest more time learning that. Same with Linux. There is a learning curve to many good things in life. But people are lazy and want it all, they want it fast, they want it without investment of time. That's just not reality in this life.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by antikythera »

motoryzen wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:39 pm

2. The stock mouse scroll wheel speed of browsers in Linux mint and manjar OOTB are way too slow. Thus. imwheel became my best friend
https://io.bikegremlin.com/11541/linux- ... oll-speed/
Good utility and also an amusing way to prank someone. Those instructions for it are great too. Turn up the speed value to 11 and let the fun begin :lol:
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olo
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by olo »

"It is an investment of time to install Mint 20, but in your case it may be time well spent when you consider that you will have 5 years to use it as it's a long term supported version. "

Yes not like always those pesky self installing updates in win 10 what mess up your system and put things in different places in the updated menu structure.
I am with ms since dos and when the windows came and later the updates came I always blocked them and had a good running system until it was replaced by new hardware. NTARS works well (never touch a running system)
In 10 you are screwed with the updates, there is a lot of sw (shutup10) what surpresses updates but ms always finds a way to force new thing into the pc.
UNLESS you do it like me and install the LTSB version and everything is good after that. (3 years and counting)

back to the topic: Why do new people give up on Linux?
I tried mint 20 on several ultrabooks and installed it on 3.
On one I am fighting with the trackpad and the sound, MrEen (Mystereen?) knows about the fight he is fighting with me on this hardware.

Everything is nice and shiny after an install and very tiny on a 13" full hd screen.
The main problem is that things are often not intuitive and to fix things you need often to open the hood and bash on the terminal with all kinds of commands what the internet tell you what work, only to find out it does not work in a brand new Mint 20C.
Let's take one example: Timeshift
you need to set it up it tells you in the start screen to do list.
OK now comes a question about what to safe, the root and the home folder with 3 possible choices. NO short explanation what makes sense for what situation.
Yes I want to save everything in my home folder please, but does everything also includes the hidden things, what are on another button, well I hope so.
I have a 20 GB partition for Linux since it says 15 at least.
After the initial install I have 11GB free, after the updates I am down to 10, after installing wine I am down to 8.4 and after trying to run the first windows app (we need to install some other files tells wine) I am down below 7 GB free.

A little problem occurs and I think better create a timeshift snapshot of the full system in case something in the console goes wrong.
I tell timeshift, what has not run yet, everything in root please.
Timeshift starts and I see it takes a long time and I monitor my free space what goes down to .4 GB and I cancel the process.
Why did timeshift did not check first if enough space was available?
OK, let's just delete the timeshift file, but timeshift says, there is none (because I read before do not manually remover timeshift files).
OK find timeshift in my home folder and do it manually, because I have literally no space left).
Deleted timeshift files and my computer is back to the initial installation screen.
Bummer no one told me that all my customisations are stored in there too.
Screw that I just start all over, where is my installation usb?

After all the re- installations, I had to do 10 on the first pc and much less on the others, countless hours searching the net and asking in forums I come to the conclusion: Linux is quite nice but you need so often to use the console and find the right commands to get things done where in win I just install a program and the function I want is there. In Linux I need to copy and paste for 10 minutes (inclusive installation waiting time), I feel like being back in windows 3.
And why is it that control V works ever where except in the console? Took me a while to find out it needs shift control V.
All this kinds of experiences will let somebody decide after different time spans, it is just not worth the husle when there is an OS where things are much more easy and refined.

Take this as a little feedback from somebody who has not reached the point of adios Linux because after throwing everything Google from the smartphone and a long time from the pc including all social media crap, Linux might be a way to be safer and more secure on the net (why does my NordVPN does not install in Mint???)

So many thing I TRIED TO INSTALL AND 60% FAILED.
But tomorrow is another day and all the machines are dual boot (but why after the partition resizing with the proper program in win and a successful Mint installation has now win at nearly every 2nd boot problems finding the wireless card? It did not have that before)...
... and why did Mint on a 20 GB free space sits fixed on 10 for mint and 10 for media? Use the slider to adjust, but the slider does not slide. So I think mint knows best and a couple hours later I try to find a way to repartition to 19 and 1.
With a win partition tool in win you just do it, reboot and it does it before mounting and restarting and everything is fine. In Mint I need a life usb to do that - really???
... and why is gpart on the installation disk but not on the installation?
SO many thing what make no sense for me as a newbie.
Look at a couple of my posts here and you get an idea what is is to be a newbie in the Penguin World.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by dorsetUK »

I wonder if it's to do with expectations, and maybe language?

To quote olo ... I have a 20 GB partition for Linux since it says 15 at least.

To quote https://linuxmint-installation-guide.re ... stall.html ... Linux Mint requires one partition to be mounted on the root / directory.

The Linux Mint operating system (without additional software or personal data) takes roughly 15GB, so give this partition a decent size (100GB or more).

My emphasis.

Maybe this sort of thing should be made clearer, so that personal interpretation becomes limited. Maybe it should say;

'Linux Mint requires one partition of at least 100GB to be mounted on the root / directory.

Although the most basic install of the Linux Mint operating system takes roughly 15GB, should you wish to install extra software and/or to save personal data (documents, music, video etc) then you'll need extra room, so make this partition a decent size (A minimum of 100GB, preferably more).
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by motoryzen »

antikythera wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:26 am
motoryzen wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:39 pm

2. The stock mouse scroll wheel speed of browsers in Linux mint and manjar OOTB are way too slow. Thus. imwheel became my best friend
https://io.bikegremlin.com/11541/linux- ... oll-speed/
Turn up the speed value to 11 and let the fun begin :lol:
Yeah..I learned that the hard way...Figured given the massive numerical slider length..that I should begin at around the half way mark. I thought my mouse was injected with steroids. xD
Last edited by Moem on Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed a quote. Make sure to always use both an opening tag [quote] and a closing tag [/quote], enclosing the quote.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rickNS »

Barbados99 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:51 pm
people are lazy and want it all, they want it fast, they want it without investment of time. That's just not reality in this life.
That is the #1 reason.
And #2 is probably that "many" people are incapable of change.
How many posts are about some newer Linux user whining about some insignificant thing that "works on windows", (or apple) A recent short post, I could find, mentions "in windows, on windows, my windows", yes three times in a couple of sentences. I really wanted to say "well you know what to do."

I remember a post in particular, awhile ago now, that a user was just so upset that certain keyboard shortcut didn't work "exactly" as it "worked on apple". In that case all the user had to do was move a finger one key to the left. Talk about spoiled brats...rant over.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Barbados99 »

rickNS wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:24 am
Barbados99 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:51 pm
people are lazy and want it all, they want it fast, they want it without investment of time. That's just not reality in this life.
That is the #1 reason.
And #2 is probably that "many" people are incapable of change.
How many posts are about some newer Linux user whining about some insignificant thing that "works on windows", (or apple) A recent short post, I could find, mentions "in windows, on windows, my windows", yes three times in a couple of sentences. I really wanted to say "well you know what to do."

I remember a post in particular, awhile ago now, that a user was just so upset that certain keyboard shortcut didn't work "exactly" as it "worked on apple". In that case all the user had to do was move a finger one key to the left. Talk about spoiled brats...rant over.
Those are some good points there. Frankly, I figure that if folks like Windows then heck, use Windows. I'm not one of those Linux users who think we have to have a big "market share" or an OS that meets the needs of everyone. I really don't care what other people like for THEIR operating system. I like Linux. Let the Windows minions like their OS too. LOL, it's not like this is a religion or something :-)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MurphCID »

Here: https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/lin ... ction.html This about covers it

There is a solution (sort of)
Projects need to become products. There ought to be consolidation - 90% of distros, if not more, are just derivatives of a small base, with less-than-significant functional and visual changes. Instead of having dozens of parallel efforts with minimal resources, there could be a small number of efforts with lots of resources. Alas, here, it seems, everyone wants THEIR project to dominate. In other words, it's all about choice, as long as it's YOUR choice. It's a paradox really, but also a reflection of the human nature.

There must be standardization - on every level. Instead of the chaos theory we have right now, there could be one standardized filesystem layout, one standardized graphics stack, one standardized audio stack, one binary format, and so on. Once again, the human nature precludes this from being a reality, or even a practical compromise. This is because Linux is the backbone of the modern computing industry, a fat, fat backbone backed by clear commercial interests from multi-billion-dollar companies. Solutions designed for the business work leak into the desktop space (which also makes them inadequate for home use), and by proxy, reflect the Cold War of Technology among business entities that use and develop Linux-based solutions. This means that not only are we not likely to get a standard - which would imply total domination by a company - if we ever do get one, it's going to be inadequate - like systemd, which might work for cloud machines, but it has no real value for the typical home rig.

There needs to be a major shift of effort from development to support - stable, high-quality products require a huge amount of nurturing and caring. But it would not be fair or realistic to expect a volunteer contributor to a Linux project to drop their passion and work like a grunt on boring tasks like documentation and testing. There's a reason why companies have paid QA departments, and why you often get students and interns working there, because there's no glamor in these tasks. Understandably, no one wants to be the person spending day after day after day running automated tests and writing dreadfully dull reports. The shift from pure development to mostly support would also mean the majority of developers currently working on Linux having no interest or reason to contribute, especially if they are not paid to do so. This is only viable if people get a salary to work on a product, which isn't the case for most distro efforts.

The solution is actually everything that the Linux desktop isn't today - and everything the SERVER and CLOUD Linux actually is! Commercialization of the effort, driven by commercial (money) considerations, with people working on products rather than participating in something that is altruistic, fun and often voluntary. And this is why most Linux desktop distros will never make this transition, and why most people will never use Linux.

This realization is hard and painful for an enthusiastic nerd like me. It is even more painful when you realize that not only can you not use Linux as your daily driver in the everyday product sense, that goal is actually slowly slipping away. Not a pleasant realization.

I also realize that most distros will never change their stance - why should they, they are having fun.

But unfortunately, me testing these distros - I'm not having fun.

Conclusion
My approach to software has always been product-driven, which in turn is needs-driven. I have had expectations and hope for the Linux desktop for many years, and so far, they remain unrealized. Alarmingly, the gap between reality and dream is getting bigger, hence my growing disappointment and negativity. If only things stayed like they were in 2015. But things are worse now actually, because the competition is moving forward.

You could say I'm just ranting. Well, the market share numbers prove me right. The Linux desktop has not dented the Windows share in any meaningful way - and what it did is 90% all because of just one distro, you know which one. Well, physics tell us - if you don't invest energy into a stable system, it will not change. The distros have not done enough to address the glaring functionality issues that prevent wider adoption among Windows folks. There is no reason then why Linux desktop ought to flourish.

There's great fatigue in the Linux desktop world. It's not just me. Check the existing publications, check the online magazines (those that still survive). Check the popularity, the engagement, whatever you like. Even nerds are finding new areas to be excited about. I guess I should blame myself for being naive and idealistic and believing (not too zealously of course, just pragmatically enough), but hey. I learned.

Just like distro developers want to have fun, I want to have fun. And that means not reviewing software that does not make me happy. I will still keep testing Linux distros - so don't misquote me on that - but I will do it not just by focusing on average user needs, stability and consistency, I will also focus on my own fun. A brand new parameter in the equation! Maybe one day, the Linux desktop will rise again. Till then, I will conserve my happy mana. And curtain.

Cheers.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

Dedoimedo's reviews are based on the strange idea that any OS should work according to his peculiar preferences out of the box. Installing the OS does require some knowledge and Dedoimedo more often than not pretends he hasn't a clue how easy is to change the defautls. Funny, his review often based on the superficial testing performed in the live session.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

MurphCID wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:58 pm
This about covers it
Completely misunderstood open source ecosystem. Thankfully there is no One Single Linux OS and never will be.
-=t42=-
asinoro
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1163
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:43 am

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by asinoro »

As a new user to Linux few things if you apply your life will be comfortable and without worries.
1- Have a reliable backup, better backups.
2- As long you reach your system to function well, follow the mentality of Android to updates-upgrades.
3- Linux is not Windows which everything on Desktop is build for it, so not to have many expectations for Linux.
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