Why do new people give up on Linux?

Chat about Linux in general
jpcy
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by jpcy »

rambo919 wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:46 am
t42 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:41 pm
Some people in this and other topics frequently complain about the lack of the documentation and step by step guides. I understand it can be frustrating when you donated hundreds of your dollars or euros to some Linux team and still can't get off the ground in the documentation department. Anyway there is better option - any IBM UNIX operating system possesses volumes of this staff (small example Setting up a cluster for an air gap environment ) with price range starting from 1000 USD/month. On the other side I don't remember any comprehensive useful Windows documentation supplied; it comes to mind only some basic manuals available with Compaq systems before years 2000.
The difference is there are many GUI third party windows apps that randomly pop up to fill the gaps. Lots of automation happens which means you do not need to read any documentation after a while and can operate on autopilot.

For linux though it gets problematic because there is so many things you can put in so many text files and so many services that you have to restart manually...... how can most people not get lost in the weeds? Even the step by step guides get randomly outdated and you can end up bricking a system following old guides especially in my own experience dealing with Samba, grub or systemd. I still cannot figure out how to best manually tune nvidia graphics settings with all the changes in the last few years.

Systemd might be a great thing for many people but it has WAY too many seperate config files that seem to point to one another in obscure ways.

And then there is the experience I had trying to compile gnucash manually using the recommended path..... which creates a messy opt folder /home. I immediately deleted this abomination and was forced to install the flatpak which also is messy and WAY too big but at least the system seems capable of sorting itself better.

The OCD in me simply cannot stand the messy way linux compulsively sprawls programs across the entirety of the system.
I feel much the same.

In stark contrast to that is the way RISC OS used to organise it's applications - In the application's own folder! - No problem with dependencies or missing libraries - It's what AppImage is now, basically. You copy the folder, you copy the application, nothing to install, just copy and double-click. Simple! Not the modern, overly complex, self-justifying-programmer convention used by Windows and Linux lol.

If it requires a certain library & version to execute - INCLUDE IT IN THE APPLICATION! It's counter to the philosophy of not reusing code, but when devs break libraries, or include 400 of the damned things, you wonder how things ever get designed in the first place. Dependency-hell (DLL-hell on Windows) is alive and well on Linux.

IMHO, when you have two screens of dependencies and libraries, you know something went wrong somewhere in development.

Why not just a single config file/folder for systemd - Why spread it out all over? I don't get it - There MUST be a perfectly good reason for it, but I can't see one, personally.

I personally don't like FlatPaks or SNAPs - The software looks awkward with it's off-kilter decoration that doesn't fit in with the rest of my system. Cludgy solutions need to be call out for what they are. Unwanted and problem causing.

I always wondered why subsystems couldn't be organised better instead of being rammed into a single folder (ie Windows, Linux AND MacOS/OSX/iOS). I also want to easily identify which actual piece of software I am using - I hate it when devs use nice names instead of the actual application name lol

How about a single, centralised system configuration application? (Windows and Linux - Again!) That would be revolutionary!

Windows development is an example of developing for someone else's requirements, presenting a cohesive, predictable environment. Step one in Linux, sometimes the hardest, is finding what caused the problem and then locating the correct forum or chat room to post the question. Then, you may be berated for not posting the right question, or having the hardware you have *facepalm*

I think one issue is referring to all Linux distros as Linux, whereas Linux only refers to the kernel, nothing else.

IMHO, if humans weren't writing the code, it might have chance to improve lol
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

For example, if I know that a single click in the Windows environment does what I want, yet a separate program, several clicks and a keypress will do the same in Linux,
I asked for and you still haven't said what actions need more clicks in Linux than Windows.
To be honest, I can't currently think of anything off of the top of my head.
Hmmm....
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
Cars, fuel types? How many, what percentage, don't use petrol? As for where the fuel cap is, a simple "walk-round" should sort that out. As for all the differences you note, none of those require a manual. You get in the car and drive it. Admittedly if you want to programme the instrumentation such as GPS and other fiddles, yes a manual but I'm talking about simply driving it.
To continue with this (inadequate) syllogism, that presumes that they know their way around this miraculous machine... Too many assumptions about the car and the driver are being made by you. This is not necessary and leaves pitfalls and creates problems and misunderstandings. When you are not aware of the different forms and shapes cars can take, seeing one that's not the one you have been driving the last few years, you're going to grind gears, find it hard to park without pranging something.
I would suggest never ever think of hiring a car then otherwise you will definitely have a problem. If you grind gears and prang it while parking, I question your driving skills.

Maybe drivers in this country are more proficient? Driving a number of different cars in one day is something I used to have to do once and now down to possibly a maximum of three in a day, an automatic, a van and someone else's manual drive.

Another two Linux installations out the door this week. The users generally range in age from 50s to upper 80 year old. Any problems or questions would relate to equally to Windows or Linux running systems.

The latest one, delivered last night, an eight minute bootup time in Windows is now, with an SSD fitted, down to 26 seconds with Linux Mint.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

This video might help explain why so many newbies give up on Linux.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpXAnRJeGMU
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:38 pm
This video might help explain why so many newbies give up on Linux.
Probably it's not. He is talking about how to invite new people to Linux, this thread is about why new people give up on Linux.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by David Chiang »

jpcy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:18 pm
IMHO, when you have two screens of dependencies and libraries, you know something went wrong somewhere in development. Why not just a single config file/folder for systemd - Why spread it out all over? I don't get it - There MUST be a perfectly good reason for it, but I can't see one, personally. I personally don't like FlatPaks or SNAPs - The software looks awkward with it's off-kilter decoration that doesn't fit in with the rest of my system. Cludgy solutions need to be call out for what they are. Unwanted and problem causing. I always wondered why subsystems couldn't be organised better instead of being rammed into a single folder (ie Windows, Linux AND MacOS/OSX/iOS). I also want to easily identify which actual piece of software I am using - I hate it when devs use nice names instead of the actual application name.

How about a single, centralised system configuration application? (Windows and Linux - Again!) That would be revolutionary!
IMHO, if humans weren't writing the code, it might have chance to improve.
Unfortunately this topic is as old as Linux itself and it has been discussed ad nauseam. However, one should always keep the structural problems in mind, which have a lot to do with the history of its origins. Users who have never dealt with UNIX and who therefore cannot understand how Linux has adopted its functionality and structure, have preprogrammed massive problems from the ground up. All the disadvantages that resulted from the freedom of the operating system as a whole are now becoming a curse for all users alike.

Some things have already been mentioned here, but I would like to point out one of the most fatal flaws in Linux and that are the permanent dependencies that have been created, just to avoid having a single file in the system a second time. Sure, this can prevent the whole system from inflating too much, but that also leads to a mess in installations that are not used, but are therefore needed anyway. I just think that's stupid and unnecessary!

As was already criticized before, a central solution, especially for various libraries, would be of great advantage and would certainly help to avoid this chaos of dependencies. This means that as long as a library or configuration file is required by an application, it remains available in the system, but if it's no longer used by any application, it's automatically removed. So you can delete or uninstall whatever you want independently of any other application and there are no longer any conflicts with it. That would make the system as a whole much more intelligent and accessible, and at the same time also ensure that the programmers have to adhere to a certain order.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ajgreeny »

What you're saying is already happening with snaps, flatpacks and appimages, all of which include all dependencies in the downloaded package.
These will perhaps in future solve some of the dependency problems you speak of but at present there are still some inconsistencies in the access to your own files that are not acceptable to me, si I use no snaps, flatpacks or appimages.

Maybe in future I shall but now? Not for me just yet!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

t42 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:57 pm
Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:38 pm
This video might help explain why so many newbies give up on Linux.
Probably it's not. He is talking about how to invite new people to Linux, this thread is about why new people give up on Linux.
Did you watch the entire video? The video isn't inviting people to Linux; it's telling why people don't come to Linux and, at several points in the video (4:05, 5:07, 9;00, and 12:12), gives reasons that also explain why people don't stay with Linux.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:22 am
at several points in the video (4:05, 5:07, 9;00, and 12:12), gives reasons that also explain why people don't stay with Linux.
His reasoning is fine but in my perception he is more about 'what prevents people to start with Linux' not 'what prevents people to stay on Linux' [of course you may interpret 'give up' both ways - before or after 'the fact'].
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ThrashZone2 »

Hi,
Just high performance wise isn't all that easy to get going since linux totally ignores user bios settings so yeah please stop that nonsense
I had to dump solus because there was no easy way to get any performance out of it
Had to install indicator-cpufreq app otherwise any linux mint would of been over pretty quick.

Now it's usable performance wise but now it's the same old story pita to do much more than movie capture and music scalping :lol:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Pjotr »

ThrashZone2 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:12 pm
Just high performance wise isn't all that easy to get going since linux totally ignores user bios settings so yeah please stop that nonsense
What on earth are you talking about?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by antikythera »

Pjotr wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:27 pm
What on earth are you talking about?
Was wondering that myself :lol:

Gentoo or Intel's Clear Linux are the best for raw throughput performance but I'm yet to experience any linux distribution ignore firmware settings across any machine I've tried it or installed it on over the years :?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Bobb24 »

New people who give up on Linux don't understand the meaning of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth"
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

Just high performance wise isn't all that easy to get going since linux totally ignores user bios settings so yeah please stop that nonsense
When i was a cop back in the 80s...people talked like that...i always asked,"just how much crack cocaine DID you just smoke today"...DAMIEN
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ThrashZone2 »

Hi,
lol last four responses tell the story why people give up on linux to as well piss poor reading comprehension and no support.

There is no gift horse lol
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MrEen »

Instead of complaining about reading comprehension, you could give an example of what you meant about BIOS settings being totally ignored. You might notice the first two responses were somewhat prodding you in that direction, with one of them even pointing out their settings aren't ignored.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by GNULinux »

i think its because
1.this world is owned by microsoft products*(mainly office & exe files)
2.people dont wanna reinstall a os thats not preinstalled they dont want to take risk
3. people have a preconcieved notion that linux is harder to learn and i have to start from beggining
4. linux has fewer apps
5.people think linux is terminal and not gui (few of my friends think so)
6.driver compatibility issues
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

antikythera wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:35 pm
Pjotr wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:27 pm
What on earth are you talking about?
Was wondering that myself :lol:
Agreed, what is he talking about?

Of the more than a dozen Linux Mint users I've set up not one of them would know anything about the BIOS, or care.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by antikythera »

DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:07 pm
When i was a cop back in the 80s...people talked like that...i always asked,"just how much crack cocaine DID you just smoke today"...DAMIEN
I think your intuition may still be firing on all cylinders. I can read properly constructed sentences, not gibberish from potential trolls.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

GNULinux wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:03 pm
1.this world is owned by microsoft products*(mainly office & exe files)
What can't be read on a Linux Mint setup? I can do things with LibreOffice that can't be done with Microsoft Office.
2.people dont wanna reinstall a os thats not preinstalled they dont want to take risk
They do if their machine is too slow and bogged down by Microsoft. Get someone who knows how, to do an installation.
3. i have to start from begging
Begging for what? It is free so no begging needed.
4. linux has fewer apps
Does it? And how many does anyone need?
5.people think linux is terminal and not gui (few of my friends think so)
None of the users I know think that.
6.driver compatibility issues
Such as?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

"since linux totally ignores user bios settings"
If it's the case it's a blessing with non-stop BIOS bugs, mostly Linux wise, never fixed.
DAMIEN1307 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:07 pm
"just how much crack cocaine DID you just smoke today
I think after analyzing the structure of the sentences in question even a professor of linguistics couldn’t agree more 8)
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