Why do new people give up on Linux?

Chat about Linux in general
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monkeyboy
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by monkeyboy »

People quit Linux for the same reason that some folks stay with Linux, because they want to. Sure folks can justify their choice anyway they want to but bottom line, Linux works so staying or going is up to the individual.
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

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However doing it in public is really hardcore.
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DoYouSpeakWak
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DoYouSpeakWak »

The 2 main problems when i install it for windows users are these two

1: Permissions. windows users are used to having access to all files and folders visable to them. Linux is not like that main for security on servers.

But with desktop linux distroes its mostly a single user that uses them so for them there is no need for a root user. The first linux distro to change this has a chance at beating linux.

2: linux is slower than windows 7 when it comes to browsing the net. Not as smooth as windows when scrolling etc.

And a third one. Since os creaters (linux) do not control all packages in the os there is a larger likelyhood of bugs than if the os creator had made all the packages themselfes.

Number 1 is the reason i still use dual boot with windows.
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markfiend
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

DoYouSpeakWak wrote:The 2 main problems when i install it for windows users are these two

1: Permissions. windows users are used to having access to all files and folders visable to them. Linux is not like that main for security on servers.

But with desktop linux distroes its mostly a single user that uses them so for them there is no need for a root user. The first linux distro to change this has a chance at beating linux.
No no no no no no no no no wrong wrong wrong. User permissions are there for a reason. What you are suggesting is, in effect, running the system as root. The first linux distro that tries to change this will go down in a flaming ball of malware.

User permissions are the main reason that Linux is so much more resistant to attack from outside than windows. In general, even if malware owns your user account, it can do no damage to the base system. If malware owns the root account, you're screwed.
DoYouSpeakWak wrote:2: linux is slower than windows 7 when it comes to browsing the net. Not as smooth as windows when scrolling etc.
Not in my experience. And quite frankly I'm surprised you think so.
DoYouSpeakWak wrote:And a third one. Since os creaters (linux) do not control all packages in the os there is a larger likelyhood of bugs than if the os creator had made all the packages themselfes.
In wikipedia-speak... [citation needed]

In general, open-source software is less buggy than proprietary stuff.
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Ricksr
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Ricksr »

I am trying Linux for thr fist time, and happen to be very glad that I picked up Mint 9 at random...it already does most of what I use a pc for. The reason I dropped Windows IS Microsoft.
My pc crashed, no disc from Microsoft to do a clean install with, didn't come with one in the package. I called Microrobber, and asked if they could send a repair disc...the answer was that I would have to purchase a new OS from them, for about $300.00 (at that time), in order to get the os I had already purchased up and running again.
Using Linux is like learning a new language. I don't think most folks want to bother learning a new language. I think the pc security is one very strong issue that should be emphazised when touting Linux.
And get it into classrooms.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

Ricksr wrote:I am trying Linux for thr fist time, and happen to be very glad that I picked up Mint 9 at random...it already does most of what I use a pc for. The reason I dropped Windows IS Microsoft.
My pc crashed, no disc from Microsoft to do a clean install with, didn't come with one in the package. I called Microrobber, and asked if they could send a repair disc...the answer was that I would have to purchase a new OS from them, for about $300.00 (at that time), in order to get the os I had already purchased up and running again.
Using Linux is like learning a new language. I don't think most folks want to bother learning a new language. I think the pc security is one very strong issue that should be emphazised when touting Linux.
And get it into classrooms.
That is why I chose Linux only thing different is I had a set of discs made up but it turned out they were corrupted so totally useless (3 month old laptop)microslop offered to sell me a new set of vista at just slightly less than purchasing the win 7 from Wal mart! M$ is only after your hard earned money and to crush anything that gets in the way (other OSs)by their own admission !!!! Anyone foolish enough to stick with M$ will undoubtedly lose in the end after all I understand M$ is stopping all support for XP therefore forcing people to buy the new system.My total cost of switching over 5 computers (without my time ) less than $10.00 I have a few different versions on disc and a couple of distros on USB devices(the flash drives ate up the $10.00 LOL)
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

markfiend wrote:User permissions are the main reason that Linux is so much more resistant to attack from outside than windows. In general, even if malware owns your user account, it can do no damage to the base system. If malware owns the root account, you're screwed.
Very much true, however i believe windows is also encouraging to limit the use admin account.
still i think Puppy linux runs in root. i could be wrong though..
Not in my experience. And quite frankly I'm surprised you think so..
Depends on which sites. if they use flash they might load slower in linux. i know yahoo on my computer loads terribly slow in linux, but does so quite fast in windows. while for the most part they have about same loading time i think.
In wikipedia-speak... [citation needed]
In general, open-source software is less buggy than proprietary stuff.
Right back at you. seriously where did you get that informaiton? Opensoruce is constantly under development. are you saying that opensource games have less bugs? well let's have a look at the Ufo Alien invasion shall we and then compare it with one of the polished proprietary games of the same sort. or maybe i dont' do them juststice... lets compare Flight gear 2 with MS Flight simulator. Flight gear - unfinished models, terain errors, certain quirks, only works well with Nvidia, but ati not so much... don't get me wrong a very nice simulator it is and i have fun using it and wathing it progress but when you compare it with proprietary software it's just not there yet. also has much more bugs.
Similar goes to OOo, although i know that MS office also has bugs.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

mastablasta wrote:
markfiend wrote:User permissions are the main reason that Linux is so much more resistant to attack from outside than windows. In general, even if malware owns your user account, it can do no damage to the base system. If malware owns the root account, you're screwed.
Very much true, however i believe windows is also encouraging to limit the use admin account.
Yes this is true. But isn't that an argument against what DoYouSpeakWak was saying? If even Microsoft are moving away from universally granted permissions it's even more wrong for Linux to move towards it? ;)
still i think Puppy linux runs in root. i could be wrong though..
Dunno. I've never used Puppy.
Not in my experience. And quite frankly I'm surprised you think so..
Depends on which sites. if they use flash they might load slower in linux.
Ah, well, Flash. I tend not to notice that, I have FlashBlocker. :lol:
i know yahoo on my computer loads terribly slow in linux, but does so quite fast in windows. while for the most part they have about same loading time i think.
OK It seems to me that Windows loads a lot of web pages slower... and the windows computer I work at sits on a 100Meg internet connection, but my Linux at home is only 10Meg. I think it's mostly a subjective judgement to be fair.
In wikipedia-speak... [citation needed]
In general, open-source software is less buggy than proprietary stuff.
Right back at you. seriously where did you get that informaiton? Opensoruce is constantly under development. are you saying that opensource games have less bugs?
Games? I didn't say anything about games. I don't really play (computer) games to be honest. I said software. All software has bugs.

OK maybe I should clarify my position: Say there's a bug in the MS Windows kernel that only affects some weird corner case that comes up approximately once in 100 years; how would you know it was there? Whereas the same bug in the Linux Kernel, with the source being open, there's a near-certainty that someone will spot it and file a bug-report. The bug rapidly becomes public knowledge, and chances are, someone will do something to fix it. But as far as the public knows, MS kernel has no bug. ;)

Open-source greatly reduces the likelihood of bugs given there are so many more eyes to spot them. Open source has a vested interest in publicising their bugs, closed-source has a vested interest in hushing theirs up.

Look at this page: http://www.msversus.org/microsoft-versu ... -bugs.html OK it's old data but they estimated Windows 2000 to have 65000 bugs just in the OS compared to 7500 bugs in 2000-era Linux in the whole system, OS and software.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

markfiend wrote:OK It seems to me that Windows loads a lot of web pages slower... and the windows computer I work at sits on a 100Meg internet connection, but my Linux at home is only 10Meg. I think it's mostly a subjective judgement to be fair.
Yes quite subjective. Though one could test, but again with so many PCs out there... as i said i only noticed lag with few pages and i think most of them is because of flash (not sure though). for the most it's about the same as i can see.
Games? I didn't say anything about games. I don't really play (computer) games to be honest. I said software. All software has bugs.

Games are software as well. i just find it easy to show because i knwo them more. I do use a lot of opensoruce (even on windows) and some are quite mature product while a lot still have bugs as they are released during development (version 0.06b etc) this is quite logical.
OK maybe I should clarify my position: Say there's a bug in the MS Windows kernel that only affects some weird corner case that comes up approximately once in 100 years; how would you know it was there? Whereas the same bug in the Linux Kernel, with the source being open, there's a near-certainty that someone will spot it and file a bug-report. The bug rapidly becomes public knowledge, and chances are, someone will do something to fix it. But as far as the public knows, MS kernel has no bug. ;)
you are quite right here. however question is how many of those MS bugs are actually critical for the average user? Because i can see plenty of critical ones or relatively critical in Linux that are still unresolved (and they are the kind that can even destroy your data). the funny thing is that sometimes they are solved, but the solution will not work for everyone so it's rubish solution in my opinion.

Firefox seems to be doing a good job, as do some other softwares, however proprietary software is still more polished. though lately they went into a habbit of releaseing stuff wiht bugs and then patches after a week or so.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

mastablasta wrote:Games are software as well. i just find it easy to show because i knwo them more. I do use a lot of opensoruce (even on windows) and some are quite mature product while a lot still have bugs as they are released during development (version 0.06b etc) this is quite logical.
Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that games aren't software. :lol: But there's a lot more to software than games. ;)

I wonder whether a lot of these games you're talking about are single-developer projects? They could be essentially written as someone's hobby. And quite frankly you're not exactly being fair comparing 0.06 versions of open software -- which are according their own developers not finished -- with commercial products. It's another difference between open and closed -- open-source coders want to get stuff "out there", way before it's "production code", to get some help and feedback from other people.

Look at a mature project instead: how many bugs are there in MS Windows desktop manager as compared to in Gnome? I don't know and neither do you because MS don't have the open bug-reporting feature that GNU do. But I'm willing to bet that Windows has a hell of a lot more bugs than Gnome.
you are quite right here. however question is how many of those MS bugs are actually critical for the average user? Because i can see plenty of critical ones or relatively critical in Linux that are still unresolved (and they are the kind that can even destroy your data). the funny thing is that sometimes they are solved, but the solution will not work for everyone so it's rubish solution in my opinion.
Yes but that ignores the point in my last post that (as of 2000) Windows (just the OS) contained around 9 times as many bugs as an entire Linux system including all software. You only know about the MS bugs because MS themselves have "owned up" and patched them, whereas the Linux bugs are known because they're open to scrutiny.
Firefox seems to be doing a good job, as do some other softwares, however proprietary software is still more polished. though lately they went into a habbit of releaseing stuff wiht bugs and then patches after a week or so.
Lately? That's been standard MS operating procedure since... well, since forever! :lol:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Raymond »

I gave up on Linux a few times when I first started using it because I found it too difficult. I knew zip about programming and my roots were always in Windows waaay back from DOS.

However, after several tries I achieved an uneasy working knowledge of Linux Ubuntu and dual booted it with Windows XP ...

What have I learned over the years about Linux?

Not much.

Thankfully, Ubuntu Linux is a very good OS, and I didn't have to know too much to use it. I always wanted to dump Windows completely, but found that I couldn't do so. There are some things that you can do on Windows that you cannot do on Linux.
For this reason, I still dual boot Windows 7 Ultimate and Linux Mint Helena.
Which brings me to Linux Mint.
In my opinion, Mint is the sweetest OS ever. Ever since I first installed "Minty Mint" I have loved it. Mint is so easy to live with. It leaves Windows for dead.

Unfortunately, I still have to dual boot Windows 7, but the great majority of my time is spent on Mint, simply because it is so damn fine.

Why do people dump Linux?

Easy enough to answer ...

Because Windows does what the majority of computer users want to do right out of the box. You don't need to know much of anything about how or why it runs or works, it just does the job most of the time and you can get just about any program you want to run on it. Popular games like WOW work on it, as do most other popular releases straight away. You don't have to learn much at all to run Windows 7. Very little effort is involved. Linux is more complicated and not everything works like it does on Windows, and a lot of people can't be bothered to spend the time to get to know Linux a bit better.

Personally, I prefer Mint over all other distros of Linux, but as good as Mint is, I still need Windows, too.


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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by JohnHahn201099 »

From my experience, most of my friends who were anticipated at first finally gave up on linux after some time due to them being afraid of learning programming language. And they were also afraid that if they do not know well enough about the operating system (which is an open one), they would be vulnerable to attack. I know this is just a newbie thought but it does happen everywhere though.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by allypink »

Finally after years of suggesting my brother try Linux he has given MS the boot (for now). He wanted to upgrade his photo-shop program but the new version will only work on Win 7 and his computer was going to have problems running W7 and some of his existing software will not run on it ether. So he decided to bite the bullet and has installed Ubuntu 10.10 and today I received my first email from him using Ubuntu. He is cautious at the moment but so far so good. I suggested Mint but he chose Ubuntu. I hope he sticks with it. He knows that after so many years with MS that the learning curve is going to be big. I have checked and apparently gimp (with a plug-in) will open his photo-shop files. I have offered my limited help and suggested he use this and the Ubuntu forums. We well see how long he lasts.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Midnighter »

Why do new people give up on Linux? Because they basically expect a free version of windows, with everything working how they're used to, and when it's not, complain that it's not "user-friendly"
If you accept - and I do - that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

Midnighter wrote:Why do new people give up on Linux? Because they basically expect a free version of windows, with everything working how they're used to, and when it's not, complain that it's not "user-friendly"
Nail/head.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Theologian »

(Just to clarify, my computer is a machine, a utility, not an entertainment center or game station.)

I yo=yoed a bit, because of hardware driver compatibility, but since my XP machine died and I was left with a blank machine and an Ubuntu disc, and unwillingness to pay the beast, I haven't looked back. In fact, I've only moved forward! Now, when I do have to use an XP machine, it is tedious; when it's Vista: %^*&#! GRRR!!!!!

The people I introduced to LinuxMint love it and its ease of use: 'It just sets up and does everything!'/'Where have all the annoying pop-up messages and warnings gone?'/etc.....

I reckon that if someone completely new to computers was introduced via LinuxMint and used it as their sole machine until they were quite familiar, they would then find Windows 'rather troublesome'. I do appreciate that this may be a case of 'none the wiser'.

My favourite reason of all for converting a Linux-pre-installed machine to M$W: 'Linux was too easy'!

:cry: I despair!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

markfiend wrote: Yes but that ignores the point in my last post that (as of 2000) Windows (just the OS) contained around 9 times as many bugs as an entire Linux system including all software. You only know about the MS bugs because MS themselves have "owned up" and patched them, whereas the Linux bugs are known because they're open to scrutiny.
probably because for most people evn if they install it it works out of the box. well that is unless it is still very new system. but i for example switched to xp i think when either SP1 or SP2 was already out. i will also have to switch to (porbably 7) after 2012. you see, i need windows for intenet banking. stupid, i know... but explain it to the bank that Linux is more secure... i also need windows as i still like to play games, and they often don't have linux support.

ok back to bugs - there are bugs that make system not working and then there are bugs that are really small and mostl likely majority of people wouldn't even notice them. what i am saying is thta Linux has a lot of bugs that make system not working. or maybe they are not really bugs but they sure make it non "user-friendly". take for instance an example that graphics card is not recognised. to solve the problem user needs to boot into vga and install appropriate drivers. but still they fist need to find out how to boot into vga mode and they were most likely already scared by non working screen. on the other hand windows will automaticly boot into vga (safe) mode if the driver is not instaleld (and doesn't exist in the system). all user now has to do is pop in the driver cd and install it.

how a system as old as linux can't do that (atomaticly boot in some safe mode, repair mode whatever) is beyond my understanding...moreover an advanced system like linux could atomaticly propose to user to find and instal drivers during OS instalation. widnows is therefore more polished in this respect.

also i have to say on twoo computer i installed ubuntu to i alreay encoutnred quite a few small bugs and annoyances. one was actually quite big. i solved them. before both of these computers had XP installed. it all worked with no bugs that i could bump into. then again i don't do much registry editing and such. my point is if there are some bugs they must be well hidden :-)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

@Mastablasta
(QUOTE)i have to say on twoo computer i installed ubuntu to i alreay encoutnred quite a few small bugs and annoyances. one was actually quite big. i solved them. before both of these computers had XP installed. it all worked with no bugs that i could bump into. then again i don't do much registry editing and such. my point is if there are some bugs they must be well hidden (END QUOTE)

The reason you don't find bugs in windoze (as it has been mentioned before )is the source code is restricted ...you are not allowed to even try to reverse engineer it without breaking the laws. THIS is partially how Gates and his gang has kept the monopoly so far.That and crushing competition with no regards to laws themselves.With enough money it is amazing who and what can be bought. I am very happy to say that very shortly my home will be 100% free from this despicable corporation !!!!
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

mastablasta your anecdotes don't trump actual data. Bugs are bugs and you saying that you can't find any in windows is beside the point. They are there even if you can't see them.

And if your bank won't support Linux for online banking, move to one that does, and tell them why you're moving. Vote with your wallet. If enough people do this, businesses will be forced to support Linux.

OK I will concede that gaming is a valid reason to use Windows, but again, you could email (or phone, or even write) the games companies and ask them why they don't port their games to Linux. Companies pay attention to customer pressure. If the voice gets loud enough they will be forced to listen.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Pierre »

And if your bank won't support Linux for online banking, move to one that does, and tell them why you're moving. Vote with your wallet. If enough people do this, businesses will be forced to support Linux.
i will also have to switch to (porbably 7) after 2012. you see, i need windows for intenet banking. stupid, i know... but explain it to the bank
Gee - I can use any of the three 'nix O/Ss on this box, to access My Bank. :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by markfiend »

Pierre wrote:Gee - I can use any of the three 'nix O/Ss on this box, to access My Bank. :D
My bank's Internet banking service works through Opera mini on my Android phone. :lol: I'm slightly concerned at the security implications of actually using it though...
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