Why do new people give up on Linux?

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inktitan
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by inktitan »

Rich.Carpenter wrote:
Koffeehaus wrote:Now I run a dualboot of Windows 7 and Mint 10. I like the Mint a lot, but my main problem with it is that there are still to few mainstream professional software available for it. I use Linux for general leisure browsing, music, films etc; and Windows for programming and gaming. My point is that even though I love the new Mint 10, I still have Windows stuck with me; and I don't think I'll consider Linux "single boot" in the near future.
Same here. As much as I want to ditch Windows, I have to keep it around for things like NetFlix, VPN into the office (company only provides Windows VPN client), Kindle Reader and just about any gaming I want to do.

I'm trying really hard to move my programming projects to Linux (Qt in particular), but it seems that every time I turn around, some other set of libraries or framework I need completely baffles me in trying to get it set up in Linux. I mentioned before that Windows has a major leg up on Linux in the fact that if you want to install something, you run that program's installation program (typically setup.exe). I was trying to get the Irrlicht game engine set up in Mint the other night, and I couldn't count the various points in the process where something very important was not spelled out in the instructions, of simply did not work as described.

For example, I was instructed to download the source. Fine. No problem with that. However, it didn't mention where I should save it, or if that was even important. Next, it told me to run .configure. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit of a fish out of water here. I'm going to need more than that to go on. Then it gave me a command to build the source with a relative path - something like "../../install && make". Luckily, I was able to discern the directory from which I needed to execute that command, but when I did, there were many errors reported during the process. More digging clued me into the fact that I didn't have permissions to perform those actions, so I went all sudo on it, and it appeared to complete. Still, once back in Qt Creator, trying to follow along with the basic intro to using the Irrlicht api's, presented various error that I am still trying to work out. It appears that certain libraries may not be in the path for the IDE to find them. Where do I even begin looking for them?...

Like I said, setup.exe, or at least a canned installation routine, could have saved me a world of frustration and time.

Always look for any .deb packages you right click 'em and open with gdebi (sometimes it is automatic) or look for the readme.txt in the .tar files. It usually has a walk through so long as you know basic terminal navigation.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by .William. »

Why do new people give up on Linux?
If Windows had just as good a forum as Linux Mint it would be filled with messages of people giving up on Windows... except they don't give up on Windows because they aren't aware of Linux existence 75% of the time and of the other 25% it can be said that they mostly think that Linux is ugly and used only by geeks and poor Oxford University professors doing obscure research. And most gamers will say (with reason) that you can not play games on Linux. But the gaming part is changing, although not fast enough for my liking. (I myself don't play games on my PC) Conclusion could be that there is still a huge amount of educating (or rather said: propaganda) to be done. If you like to help out in that you can start by telling to others about the good experiences you have had with Linux and all the possibilities it has. And don't forget to mention to them that Linux is for free, that should draw anyones attention during an economic crisis. Focus on mothers and governments. Mothers want the best education for their children but also buy them clothes and food. They need to save money where they can and here Linux is a winner for their cause. Governments spend the money from their tax payers and those taxpayers should demand from their governments to spend it on free-of-charge recourses were possible. There is no good reason why governments should spend fortunes on software like Microsoft Word, Excel, Photoshop or expensive 3d design software when they could get all that free-of-charge or for a very low (more or less expenses covering) price. I think the people who write open source software should be on the nomination for the next Nobel Peace Price, since they help others without reserve. Just because it's the right thing to do. So maybe many people don't make it to level 2 of Linux Mint. Just don't forget that a lot of people don't have the time to post a Linux-Works-Great-Thank-You-Thread on a Linux forum. A poor single mother in a poor part of Johannesburg, who needs to work long days, but manages to get her kids a PC to study on and get educated, she may only post if Linux doesn't work but the knowledge that it gets her kids educated should be all that counts. It's called altruism and many of the people who create these wonderful Linux distro's know that they do things because it's right.
Sorry for my rant but also I have a busy live and lack of time. But I felt I could express my feeling here in the knowledge I'm playing a game in my home stadium. Whenever I talk to politicians, friends or anyone else who may be interested, I tell them about the need for Linux. And if they're interested I will make the time to show them the way. Recently the government of the Russian Federation decided they will change all Russian government services, including all schools and the military, to Linux in the next 5 years. I say they are smart, not just anti-Microsoft (a.i. America). It should bring a whole lot of new people to Linux. I say give it time, commitment and trust. Rome was not build over night, neither will Linux.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

Rich.Carpenter wrote:I was trying to get the Irrlicht game engine set up in Mint the other night, and I couldn't count the various points in the process where something very important was not spelled out in the instructions, of simply did not work as described.
This is less of a problem with larger open source projects which have several people doing documentation, but for smaller projects that are mostly developers the documentation is unsurprisingly lacklustre. Writing documentation is a great way to contribute to an open source project without having to write a bit of code, but unfortunately it is often forgotten.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Dajunka »

This will be the second time I have tried to change to Linux. I gave up the first time because every time I asked a question the answer I received was complete double Dutch to me. Maybe it was because they didn't know how new I was to Linux, I don't know. Maybe I will fare better this time.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by eiver »

Good luck :). If you encounter problems with Linux, just ask here on this forum. There are many people here, who will help you. Just indicate your level of Linux knowledge when writing a post, so that a person helping you does not omit information, which may seem obvious to him or her, but might not be so obvious to you.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Jix »

Why you give up depends on why you decided to try it in the first place. People who decide to try Linux because they saw youtube clips of cool Beryl effects will quickly get discouraged because the OS needs a lot of tinkering to get all the fancy effects and menus. Linux distros haven't gotten in the habit of pre-installing aesthetic stuff like Docky, Screenlets, Emerald, etc., even though they come with plenty of pre-installed apps (often to the point of redundancy, like 3-4 video apps).

Linux also has a very different feel. Don't know if it's a gnome thing or what but icons, buttons, menus, everything has a floating feel to it. It's really distracting at first. Like when you add icons to the task bar, they don't automatically snap to a specific place. That might not sound like a big deal, but this lack of polish is found in just about everything, from the shape of icons (gawd I hate Gimp's icon) to every application missing one or two important features.

Getting your OS to have a decent work flow without it asking stupid questions is also an issue. There's always some weird thing that pops up that makes you waste time to try and fix. Wanna make your computer not act like a retard by asking for the password to access something as mundane as your D drive? You gotta research it online. Wanna have shortcuts to various folders on C drive (Windows)? You gotta install some NTFS auto-mount thing. Wanna use wireless? Gotta deal with keyrings. Have an external HDD? Hope you don't get a message that your drive can't be found upon reboot once you remove it. Wanna install an application on Wine? Get ready to shadow box around a myriad of anomalies. Wanna change your splash screen? Backup up your data or risk destroying your life's work.

Then you have the bugs...

In my case Linux is keeping me from making a permanent switch because my ATI and Intel drivers aren't properly supported. I risk permanently damaging my laptop due to overheating by using it too much.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by LaCone »

Survival for the fittest.
maybe that the answer, linux still not fit enough for the desktop market, we can debate about this for pages, but the evidence is: windows still leads by 88% desktop market, followed by mac by 12%.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Fandangio »

LaCone wrote:Survival for the fittest.
maybe that the answer, linux still not fit enough for the desktop market, we can debate about this for pages, but the evidence is: windows still leads by 88% desktop market, followed by mac by 12%.
That can't be right!

88+12=100 and as most users here are running Mint (plus the countless other distros) where do the other OS's fit in?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Elisa »

LaCone wrote:...windows still leads by 88% desktop market, followed by mac by 12%.
Are u so ... (@#$%^&*)?? :evil:
It might be true but THE QUESTION IS why is it so?? And I am sure IT'S NOT DUE WINDOWS IS BETTER AND LINUX DISTROS ARE CRAP !

Try to read more articles about policy of Microsoft etc.. :roll:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

wow this one is still going - hot topic i guess.

in the end to find the answer to the topic's quesiton, best would be to ask people that tried it and gave up on it. they know why they gave up. some because incompatibility with their hardware (bad graphics drivers, sound issues, disk issues...), others can't find good software platforms/tools or alternatives to (linux clients for) those running under windows, then again some fixed the issues but they reapear or new ones come up with updates (they get tired of fixing things)...

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Elisa »

mastablasta wrote:...to ask people that tried it and gave up on it. they know why they gave up. some because incompatibility with their hardware (bad graphics drivers, sound issues, disk issues...)
I suppose it's an incompatibility of their hardware (head? brain? :roll: ) & their will...
However for 'comfortable' companies there is a solution of Red Hat crew who take care of companies also !
mastablasta wrote:...others can't find good software platforms/tools or alternatives to (linux clients for) those running under windows...
...bulls... stories man, check out our thread of Linux alternatives apps, man!
mastablasta wrote:...they get tired of fixing things)...
And also I'm getting tired of 'wise persons crying'... :roll:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by willie42 »

People are missing patience. If it don't work right off the bat then they give up instead of researching a little. Some get angry and some think their problems are not solvable.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

Elisa wrote:
mastablasta wrote:...to ask people that tried it and gave up on it. they know why they gave up. some because incompatibility with their hardware (bad graphics drivers, sound issues, disk issues...)
I suppose it's an incompatibility of their hardware (head? brain? :roll: ) & their will...
However for 'comfortable' companies there is a solution of Red Hat crew who take care of companies also !
no. problem is bad drivers support. people usually already have a computer and want to try linux. and they might give up becuase it doesn't work. it's not their fault ATI decided not to support latest features in it's graphics card oir decided to drop support for a bit older models. they won't go --- "hmm let's try linux. what kind of computer (components) should i buy to try it and see if i like the OS....". peopel just have what they have. and they run windows and then try Linux and it might not work or work poorly (especially if they have older ATI chip in a laptop).
then again if oyu know solution to these problems they have (a solution that doens't require them to bin the laptop and get a new one, cause not everyone can do this) then visit the Ubuntu forum . plenty of thread about non working graphics there.
mastablasta wrote:...others can't find good software platforms/tools or alternatives to (linux clients for) those running under windows...
...bulls... stories man, check out our thread of Linux alternatives apps, man!
I will check the thread. still there are no altternatives to some latest windows games, there are no alternatives to Adobe's latest CS. There are no good WYSYWIG editors (hey maybe there are some in your thread....). There are also no alternatives to latest MS Offices. OOo is just not the same. Some features are missing. Not to mention it has compatibility issues with MS office which most people use. Docs and even presentations are not the same for example. the 200+page book i am editing has pictures all over the place if i move it from MS office to OOo.

and alternative to me is something that does the same task. it might do it in bit different way but it is capable of doing same tasks or even better and more. i use most alternatives. they were not a problem to find since i use opensource on windows as well.

for example my banking software needw IE to run. stupid, but that's how it is. and it needs Frame.net to run perfectly. so i need to run it in windows. also the encryptedUSB with digital signature for it runs only in windows.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Daboo »

ferguj1 wrote:I have to admit that I didn't read every post in this thread (yet) but enough to get the idea, and in doing so finding out that at least I am not alone. ...
Like ferguj1, I haven't read the entire thread...it's 19 pages now, and I'm at work...so I should be working instead. With that said, what I've seen I've liked. The speed is great. I like the security features. The way the OS GUI seems logical and easy to understand. It's no less of a mental exercise than going from WinXP to Win7 or Vista. So I have no problems with any of that and want this to work.

At the same time, my experience has been somewhat buggy. I installed OpenSuse about three times before giving up on it. Every time the update process got to updating the kernel, the process hung up...and it wouldn't reboot afterwards. I tried Ubuntu and liked it. I decided I wanted to use the KDE plasma desktop instead, so installed it...but not without problems. It worked fine for a week or so, but without warning would not boot. (Does logging into WinXP and having it install updates do something? I'll start a thread elsewhere on that.) I've spent two days now trying to get the OS to restart properly. After trying some suggestions on the Kubuntu forum, I decided to look into alternatives and like what I see with Linux Mint. So I deleted the partition and will install Linux Mint tonight.

As much as I like the look and feel of Linux, it has to be stable. If it isn't, I'll leave it alone for awhile and try it again later.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Elisa »

mastablasta wrote:no. problem is bad drivers support.
It might be but it's problem of "wanna-be developers" not linux community. However there is possible to build a PC or buy/choose such laptop which will work both - Linux & windows too.
mastablasta wrote:...visit the Ubuntu forum . plenty of thread about non working graphics there.
It'd be good if any hardware guru would express his opinion about your complain :wink:
mastablasta wrote:I will check the thread. still there are no altternatives to some latest windows games,
Okay, wanna play the latest "cool", ok, then buy windows :lol:
mastablasta wrote:there are no alternatives to Adobe's latest CS.

Gimp is one alternativ except others. However Photoshop runs in wine too. But u r not a printing company, right?
Because if you'd be you wouldn't loose your time windows but Mac... :roll:
As for DTP there is scribus or other alternatives but I am sure also Adobe InDesign would be able to run in wine...
mastablasta wrote:There are no good WYSYWIG editors (hey maybe there are some in your thread....).
BTW it's not my thread but whatever. Define "good WYSIWYG"?
Also the cool Macromedia Dreamweaver can run in wine :idea:
mastablasta wrote:There are also no alternatives to latest MS Offices. OOo is just not the same.
Define "same". There is OO as well as Libre Office. How many of various offices did you check out?
Try to read about the Libre Office
mastablasta wrote:...for example my banking software needw IE to run. stupid, but that's how it is.
But it's problem or an impotence of that silly bank that they cannot make secure stuff with other browsers than silly MSIE :roll:
mastablasta wrote:...also the encryptedUSB with digital signature for it runs only in windows.
I don't know about that stuff u mentioned but I don't wanna believe that even "something" high secured is possible run only in Windows... :roll:
Hardly can someone believe in that :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

In general people associate free products with poor quality especially when MS jumps on the bandstand with all their advertising money. Microsoft and Mac both put out a lot of FUD about how bad Linux/Unix systems are. Many people that do try Linux/Unix wind up liking it (even though they may need something else for work). I would like to say that in the event that the developers were ever able to make a "perfect "distro" that could do everything for anybody there would still be the typical complaints. You just cannot please everyone :?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

I'd say that new people give up on Linux for the same reason they want to give up on Windows (but can't for whatever reason): something doesn't work right and they are not prepared to spend time on it. In the case of Linux, they just drop it and run. In the case of Windows, they shell out cash to work around the problem with an otherwise unnecessary upgrade. To think that poor compatibility is a problem only common to Linux is shear naivety. Unless you're running CottonWoolOS (also known as OSX) on your shiny white plastic you have a very high chance of running into a compatibility problem eventually. This is especially true if you didn't RTF Label to see if your hardware purchase was even tested on the platform you intend to run.

The other issue is that of the PEBKAC syndrome. Why do companies employ an IT department? Because things go wrong and it's almost always the fault of the user who doesn't know how to handle their system.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

Yes I do agree with you as well randomizer
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

Elisa wrote:
mastablasta wrote:no. problem is bad drivers support.
It might be but it's problem of "wanna-be developers" not linux community. However there is possible to build a PC or buy/choose such laptop which will work both - Linux & windows too.
Yes exactly it can be bought, and you can choose the linux PC if you already know you will run Linux. Most people just buy PC some even with windows prelaoded. so why buy when you have a computer that is running windows just nice just to try OS you might not even like?
mastablasta wrote:there are no alternatives to Adobe's latest CS.

Gimp is one alternativ except others. However Photoshop runs in wine too. But u r not a printing company, right?
Because if you'd be you wouldn't loose your time windows but Mac... :roll:
As for DTP there is scribus or other alternatives but I am sure also Adobe InDesign would be able to run in wine...
Adobe Photohsop has plenty features not available in GIMP. You can check a few Youtube videos to see them. it was juts an example to some adobe to someone else a complex stock manager... Runnign software in wine (which can be shaky and might run much slower than original) is not really why you would ruin linux. as you said before if you use (or have to use) windows based software why not just run windows?
mastablasta wrote:There are no good WYSYWIG editors (hey maybe there are some in your thread....).
BTW it's not my thread but whatever. Define "good WYSIWYG"?
Also the cool Macromedia Dreamweaver can run in wine :idea:
WINE wins....
Linux people frown upon WYSIWYG but for beginners it's good to see how code is created etc. and MS Frontpage does a descent job as well under windows
mastablasta wrote:There are also no alternatives to latest MS Offices. OOo is just not the same.
Define "same". There is OO as well as Libre Office. How many of various offices did you check out?
Try to read about the Libre Office
Libre office is OOo - development continues. Again compatibility issues are unresolved.
mastablasta wrote:...for example my banking software needw IE to run. stupid, but that's how it is.
But it's problem or an impotence of that silly bank that they cannot make secure stuff with other browsers than silly MSIE :roll:
mastablasta wrote:...also the encryptedUSB with digital signature for it runs only in windows.
I don't know about that stuff u mentioned but I don't wanna believe that even "something" high secured is possible run only in Windows... :roll:
Hardly can someone believe in that :D
I know it's silly but it's the way it is. Do you know that Windows server is also used on some sites and they are preety secure.
Anyway the local linux community has been complaining for a while to the ocmpany that issues these certificates and programmes. they refuse to do it in Linux. i think they usesome frame.net and some other security from MS.
anyway you say the porblem is with the bank. but the topic is why people give up on linux. if oyu can't run this software and you are using this bank you have no joice but to give up on linux and switch to MS. or at least dual boot.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

randomizer wrote:I'd say that new people give up on Linux for the same reason they want to give up on Windows (but can't for whatever reason): something doesn't work right and they are not prepared to spend time on it. In the case of Linux, they just drop it and run. In the case of Windows, they shell out cash to work around the problem with an otherwise unnecessary upgrade. To think that poor compatibility is a problem only common to Linux is shear naivety. .
no it's not. compatibility can indeed be a problem in windows as well. but majority of PC hardware is made for windows or at least drivers are issued by manufacturers.

For example i have an older Radeon 9600XT card and an old Ati RAge card. Now both have manufacturer drivers that will work in Win98, WinXP. 9600XT works in Vista and possibly in win7 as well.
They both work in linux with opensoruce drivers. i had no issues with them. but i am not sure what the max performace uder linux is.
it's a different story with some other legacy card. especially the ones in notebooks. they work nicely in XP, Vista and Win7, but they don't work in Linux. or if they do you get some 2D support. lucky me, no issues. then again i dont' have mobile ATI card. but ye old S3 works nicelly (no effects) in linux

Then there is motherboard drivers. at first my sound didn't work. then they wrote new ALSA. so upgrade to new version solved this issue. but sound is still only available in plain old stereo mode. no HD sound i believe. again i don't care much about this but some people will say it worked before in Windows so i will just use windows. not in the mood to write drivers at the moment :-) then sleep mode didn't work on start (using Ubuntu since 9.10). Sleep mode didn't work! essential function these days. anyway now it works as it seems one of the updates solved the issue (after 1 year, but i could just as well leave linux if the funciton was more important to me). i still dont' know why forward USB ports dont' work (i admit this could be my fault, but from research i did it seems less and less so).

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