Why do new people give up on Linux?

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inktitan
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by inktitan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Dajunka wrote:I overcame most of the larger problems while getting to grips with Linux. What did get to me was the tiny things that you took for granted with windows became a mountain to climb in Linux.
What doesn't help the new comer is the lack of any standed routines in linux. You ask how you should do a certain thing and you will receive 10 different answers detailing 10 different ways of getting the job done. It really does keep you up at night. :D
I agree completely with this. Is is quite frustrating to have to sort through which method you should use and sometimes if you use two at the same time you end up with all kinds of problems. On the other hand if you only had one option and it doesn't work the what? New install? It is nice to know you may have another perhaps easier way than the one first offered. But those offering the help do need to be clear on when and how to use any given method.
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GSXR750L
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by GSXR750L » Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm

Man was given two hands, those who can or use both, do far better than those who either can not or will not, use both :mrgreen:

SORRY framp, it is your analogy with the hands did not translate very well.

Maybe an Artist with one colour is very limited (Windows)

An Artist with hundreds of colours has far more oportunity (Linux)

Welcome to the forum framp

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by davethomas11 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:49 pm

<- I'm a newly converted windows user.

What stoped me before was definately the "this won't run in linux" thinking.... but once you try a lot of the alternatives to the "this won't run" ... you realize there is a lot you are actually missing out on.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by tronotron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Granted there are still things that need sorting out, but lets give the Mint devs the credit they're due- it's a free OS after all.

To sum up my answer to the thread's question, I think those who try Linux these days and give up on it do so either because they can't get it to work properly on their system (for various reasons, from technical to lack of authoritative, comprehensive documentation or support), or they just can't find enough interesting software, compared to what's available for M$ and Mac.

I'd say most home users who try a recent Linux distro like Mint or Ubuntu without attempting to dual boot with Windoze, are happy with the results and stick with it. For web browsing, basic wordprocessing, watching videos, etc. it's perfectly adequate . I know of many people in my local community who have recently switched to Linux after having had enough of their PCs not working because of Windoze. People are already offering Linux installation services.

More and more people are generally becoming disillusioned, mistrustful, and even downright inimical to large corporations like M$ and Apple, and their dodgy practices.
The future looks good for Linux. :D

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by tronotron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:37 pm

grey1960envoy wrote: First of all this is NOT due to the Linux devs but rather the Mac camp for locking Linux out, if they would allow it, we would be able to run iTunes/ iPods /Iphones very easily but try to get Apple to agree.


Not really, iPhone works great, including tethering, on Mint. just install ipheth & update ipod-related stuff installed by default.

Rhythmbox will mess with the album artwork , though, which gets fixed next time you sync with iTunes.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Zazzman » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:54 pm

Now, I've had an interesting experience.

With some distros, getting help is a pain. Even after I've looked through the wikis, crawled through google on my hands and knees, I go there in desperation... only to be ignored. I look around, offer help to others while appropriate, while I'm there... I check back in a couple of hours, the next day, then a week later... and nothing. Getting warnocked as a new guy just doesn't give me the sense of community I was informed about. Or worse - when I don't even know where to start, and I find my topic gets deleted - maybe a day, maybe two days from when I start it -there were no replies anyway.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:57 pm

tronotron wrote:Granted there are still things that need sorting out, but lets give the Mint devs the credit they're due- it's a free OS after all.
I don't like it when people say this because it feeds the idea that free (as in free beer) is in some way inferior to paid software purely because it is free. I expect that Linux Mint works and works well (I don't expect it to do everything for me though), same with other Linux distros. Linux is used in everything from toasters to supercomputers and some configuration of the same kernel is used in Mint so this is a reasonable expectation. What I should not expect is support on the same level of commercial support. If I want proper support I must be willing to spend money. Red Hat and Novell will provide me with support if I'm willing to pay. Now I'm not saying that Clem, Ikey and the others don't provide good support because you can jump on IRC to see that they do, but I can't expect or demand it. I can expect and demand support from Microsoft and Red Hat because I paid for support when (hypothetically speaking) I bought their products. In the former case I have found that support is below sub-par unless you're willing to spend even more money for more "premium" support, or if you're a corporate customer. End users get shafted as Customer Support and Tech Support keep shifting responsibility for an issue between themselves.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by tronotron » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:41 am

No, I didn't mean to say that a free OS is by definition inferior, I meant that if it's a work of love rather than a commercial venture, it means that the developers have to do other work to earn a living and may not have the time to polish all the rough edges. And if we aren't paying we can't expect them to either.

What really gets me with ALL operating systems- free or not- is the lack of comprehensive and thorough documentation. I'm not a coder but writing an OS must be much more difficult than writing a book explaining how the OS works and how to use it. I mean how to use ALL of it. Buy a MacBook Pro, a serious computer with a serious price tag, - and a "Pro" label- and you don't get a "Pro User's Handbook", you get the joke that is Apple Help and a thin booklet with dumbed down instructions on how to perform the simplest tasks. Permissions? You have to buy a book for that.

On Linux : where is the authoritative guide on how to install applications you find on the net? There's tar.gz, tar.bz2, rpm, and other packages often with no instructions that a new-comer to Linux can understand. Installing stuff through Synaptic is definitely not for newcomers.

If we want to see Linux spreading there has to be a change in mentality on the part of the developers, they need to think about all these new users, and making sure they don't run away back to windoze and its viruses.

Online help from forums and wikis has to take a second place to actual User Guides written by the people who actually wrote the OS; and written for people who do no want to have to use the command line unless for emergency fixes.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Koninator » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:47 pm

Too much distributions! You look for some solution, and you find fix for it. But when you tray it. It don't work because fix was made for some other distribution.
And also if you find fix it doesn't mean that will work on never/older version of the same distribution!
And also if you fix something you don't know it it will still work after update.
And also code names are stupid, wezze/squezze and some similar crap. Why you can't use numbers, it is much more simple and everyone understands it.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by timmer1240 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:34 am

I think Linux is for more of a do it yourself type person sometimes things just dont work right after installation and we are willing to do a little work to get them going.Dont get me wrong Ive had windows installs that ive had to install display drivers had sound issues ect.But its just that most people buy a computer from a retail store and windows is preinstalled and they dont have to do anything but set up an account on it email ect.All my friends when they have trouble or issues with their PCs they come to me they dont want to sort things out they just want it to work!Ive been using linux for a year now but I knew there could be problems and things would be different luckily things worked out pretty good and when I did have questions or problems I didnt just throw in the towel.The average computer user doesnt want to repartition their hard drive install a linux distro it scares the heckout of em so thats a big road block for most people.Maybe when Chrome OS comes out and is sold on new hardware all set up more people will jump on board.My friends think Im a computer Guru just because I use linux and thats just not true Google,Ubuntu forums,mint forums,are my go tos if I need an answer. Most new people just arent willing to spend some time learning they get on the forum rant about how linux is no good ect. ect. and just give up!As for me Im sticking with Linux I Love it!

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kmb42vt » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:28 pm

timmer1240 wrote:I think Linux is for more of a do it yourself type person sometimes things just don’t work right after installation and we are willing to do a little work to get them going. Don't get me wrong Ive had windows installs that I've had to install display drivers had sound issues etc.But its just that most people buy a computer from a retail store and windows is pre-installed and they don’t have to do anything but set up an account on it email etc....
You've basically hit the nail right on the head with your above statement. The majority of Windows users have computers that came with Windows already pre-installed just like you say. Now hand someone a Windows 7 install DVD and a PC with a blank hard drive and watch what happens. In all reality, this would be the same type of situation as someone with the same type of PC was sitting there with a Linux Mint 10 install DVD. At the starting point there's really no difference between those two users even when they attempt to do the install as both Windows 7 and LM 10 have made installing these OSs as easy as possible.

The difference comes in once the two OSs are installed and problems occur. I think Linux Mint for example is ahead of the game here since 7 times out of 10 it will find and install the right drivers without user intervention where Windows 7, although much improved over the previous Windows versions, very often stumbles when it comes across a piece of hardware it doesn't recognize and often there's no way for the user to determine the specifics of said hardware. And once they do where do they go from there? Compared with the the world of (the major) Linux distros which is filled with (almost always) friendly help and support forums, Windows users are very often left all at sea so to speak. With most major Linux distros, the OS itself will provide all sorts of information about the recalcitrant hardware that can be provided at the Distro's support forum and and a solution is almost always found.

Another difference (obviously) is that Linux is an open source vs a closed source OS like Windows so if it comes down to it, a user can follow instructions they receive from a Linux (name your distro) "guru" and solve a problem in root of the OS files themselves. Try that with Windows. I can say all this since I've used, worked with and tested MS OSs and software since DOS 3.0, various "ancient" and more modern Linux distros and all sorts of different OSs that came before (yes, I was a computer maniac back when it wasn't "cool"). I switched to Linux Mint full time about 3 years ago right after I beta tested Windows 7 (a fine OS by the way) which I dual booted with Ubuntu. Right now I'm triple booting 2 different versions of Linux Mint 10 (Gnome and KDE RC) and LMDE. Windows 7 is restricted to a VM in LM 10 (Gnome) which is my main OS.

Now...with all the above being said, how often is an average user plunked down in front of a PC with a blank hard drive and a Windows install disk? Or even with a Linux based OS install disk? Until one of the more popular Linux distros, one that provides the best "out of the box experience like Linux Mint does, comes pre-installed on PCs built by the major manufacturers, modern, fully powered, up-to date PCs that are not stripped down versions simply because most Linux distros can run lesser powered machines, Linux, as a desktop and mobile PC OS, will continue to languish on the sidelines. The "average user" simply cannot understand the concept that there are very decent alternatives to Windows available that don't have an Apple logo tattooed on the case. :D
"Humph. Choice, it is the quintessential Linux delusion, simultaneously the source of it's greatest strength, and it's greatest weakness." (All apologies to The Architect)

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Fandangio » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:56 pm

randomizer wrote:
tronotron wrote:Granted there are still things that need sorting out, but lets give the Mint devs the credit they're due- it's a free OS after all.
I don't like it when people say this because it feeds the idea that free (as in free beer) is in some way inferior to paid software purely because it is free. I expect that Linux Mint works and works well (I don't expect it to do everything for me though), same with other Linux distros. Linux is used in everything from toasters to supercomputers and some configuration of the same kernel is used in Mint so this is a reasonable expectation. What I should not expect is support on the same level of commercial support. If I want proper support I must be willing to spend money. Red Hat and Novell will provide me with support if I'm willing to pay. Now I'm not saying that Clem, Ikey and the others don't provide good support because you can jump on IRC to see that they do, but I can't expect or demand it. I can expect and demand support from Microsoft and Red Hat because I paid for support when (hypothetically speaking) I bought their products. In the former case I have found that support is below sub-par unless you're willing to spend even more money for more "premium" support, or if you're a corporate customer. End users get shafted as Customer Support and Tech Support keep shifting responsibility for an issue between themselves.
I agree Randomizer;

Firstly, it being free definitely does not mean that it is inferior. My better half was a student until quite recently and we got Win 7 for next to nothing (otherwise I'd never have gone there) so I do have another modern non-linux distro to compare to. Mint 10 IMHO is leagues better than Win 7, with all the dev's and cost that the MS OS incurs it's still no where as good as many linux distros, especially Mint.

Secondly support, here, on Ubuntu (forums), and PC Linux OS (distro's I have some experience of) is incredible. Windows? Well not so much.

I thank everyone who helps and makes an effort to make and support linux Mint :)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:23 am

Koninator wrote:And also code names are stupid, wezze/squezze and some similar crap. Why you can't use numbers, it is much more simple and everyone understands it.
You mean like 6.0 (the current version number for Debian Squeeze)? Code names aren't meant to sound professional. Windows Vista was codenamed Longhorn, which sounds equally stupid. Of course in both cases the code names have significance. For Debian it's just the Toy Story characters in the order they appear in the credits (I think), while with Windows XP, Vista and 7 the codenames refer to two ski resorts in Canada (Whistler and Blackcomb) and the Longhorn bar between them. Does the end user know or care about this? Of course not, but that's why version numbers and "proper" names are used for marketing purposes.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by timmer1240 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:18 am

I Like the code names myself Squeeze is a cool one!

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by monkeyboy » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:16 am

woodsmoke wrote:I would say that to a "new" person to Linux who sincerely thinks that all those NON-microsoft people MUST be nice people are quite astonished to learn that they are not given an appelation which any NORMAL person would expect when new to a community...

maybe..."new person"....hmmm

but no....
they get

"noob" and "noobie" and "newbie"... really nice, endearing terms that ANYONE would love to have themselves called.

woodsmoke
If people are put off an OS because they get called a noob or whatever then they really aren't ready for Linux. There are challenges awaiting a new user that are much more daunting then a simple descriptive label.
I keep coming back to the position that Linux already works for millions of users worldwide so if a new user is properly motivated they can make Linux work for themselves too. IMHO
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by sahilshinesalways » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:41 pm

1st hand experience in linux is same as 1st hand experience of a noob in internet...
both are self expanatory and have enough details within but there is always a lack of utilization
:wink:
just lil comonsence and lil brainwork...u will be rolling in it
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Robin
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Robin » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:23 pm

tronotron wrote: I suppose there are varying definitions of "homeless", and some homeless in America can even have laptops and spend time thinking about Linux installations!
Does living in a truck all last month count? Does having a laptop (given to me) and putting Linux on it disqualify me from the term "homeless" even if I stay in a shelter? Geez... we could fix the homeless problem in America by giving away laptops then! Whatever...

Back on topic:

The "borked after update" argument doesn't work for me, at least as far as Mint is concerned, especially the long-term-support versions, for two reasons:

1. - If you only accept Level 1 and 2 updates, you're really unlikely to ever have an essential function borked, and

2. - You don't have to accept any updates or upgrades if you're satisfied with things as they are.

Look at the "borked after update" threads in alot of other Linux forums and compare the sheer number of them with those in the Mint forums! Rarely if ever are they Level 1 or 2 anyway, but the high-risk ones. The Mint Updater is a nice safety net for new Linux users, and even more experienced ones who need reliability and safety on a mission-critical machine.

-R

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:19 am

Robin wrote: 1. - If you only accept Level 1 and 2 updates, you're really unlikely to ever have an essential function borked, and
Do they include security kernel patches? i am askin because i am actually on Ubuntu. if so this is my problem as on every kernel update my upgraded alsa gets overwritten. which shouldn't happen if you ask me. linux should be smart enough to see i am using a higher version of the drivers and not just a different version that needs to be modified to it's need and then modifies it.
2. - You don't have to accept any updates or upgrades if you're satisfied with things as they are.
i would suggets at least security updates, otherwise you might as well use Microsoft. Linux might not have many viruses, but account can still be hacked. there is no 100% security but why leave holes open, if you can close them with a patch?

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:30 am

mastablasta wrote:Do they include security kernel patches? i am askin because i am actually on Ubuntu. if so this is my problem as on every kernel update my upgraded alsa gets overwritten. which shouldn't happen if you ask me. linux should be smart enough to see i am using a higher version of the drivers and not just a different version that needs to be modified to it's need and then modifies it.
The issue is not that Linux isn't "smart", it's most likely that the package dependencies cause a conflict with your existing configuration.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:15 pm

Robin wrote:
tronotron wrote: I suppose there are varying definitions of "homeless", and some homeless in America can even have laptops and spend time thinking about Linux installations!
Does living in a truck all last month count? Does having a laptop (given to me) and putting Linux on it disqualify me from the term "homeless" even if I stay in a shelter? Geez... we could fix the homeless problem in America by giving away laptops then! Whatever...

Back on topic:

The "borked after update" argument doesn't work for me, at least as far as Mint is concerned, especially the long-term-support versions, for two reasons:

1. - If you only accept Level 1 and 2 updates, you're really unlikely to ever have an essential function borked, and

2. - You don't have to accept any updates or upgrades if you're satisfied with things as they are.

Look at the "borked after update" threads in alot of other Linux forums and compare the sheer number of them with those in the Mint forums! Rarely if ever are they Level 1 or 2 anyway, but the high-risk ones. The Mint Updater is a nice safety net for new Linux users, and even more experienced ones who need reliability and safety on a mission-critical machine.

-R
Don't let people that live sheltered lives get to you Robin .I was homeless not too long ago myself(I also had and still do have a laptop) I'll say a prayer for you and hope things get better.

Back to what I was going to say
I borked my system last night by accepting a level 4 upgrade and found myself in the peculiar situation of having to use another distro to salvage my files to a backup HDD (I lost my LMDE disc :lol: ) LESSON LEARNED :lol: :lol: :lol:
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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