Why do new people give up on Linux?

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lmintnewb

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by lmintnewb »

That is actually a profound statement imo. Also agree and feel the same way. It's more than a lil aggravating. Although I'm a recent convert. Been a long time follower of gnu/linux and opensource. Kind of resent ubuntu and think it's odd and disturbing that they do the things they do and are what the evidence says they are.

With all the popularity, supposed funding and the size of the community. You'd think they'd have the best of everything. Hearing about new kernels that melt peoples laptops ? ... Bugs here, bugs there ... ubuntu bugs everywhere ? 6 months, here's something else to throw on the pile ... enjoy it folks !!! Linux at it's best. A shining example !!!

Sheesh have found ( am using ) nix distro's evidently put together by one developer. Serves it out of a server in the hall closet and ??? MUCHO MORE ENJOYABLE AND BETTER THAN THE UBUNTU I'VE TRIED. Which to me there's no logical explanation for that. Other than ubuntu isn't trying very hard or doesn't give a crap about FOSS.


OK ... END RANT. :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Nexus »

owend wrote: c) one-click install packages which would work on all formats (ie like .exe in Windows, rather than .deb, .rpm etc) - possibly with a bolt-on interpreter? Then each distro could keep its identity while still allowing access to the full range of software.

That right there I think would go farther towards bringing Linux into the OS wars than anything else. It would not only simply things for developers of Linux Native software, but provide an avenue for commercial developers to create Linux Native versions of their own software and distribute it without having to make several releases. This in my opinion is the single biggest need Linux has at the moment. Though I'd still wouldn't say "One-click", there is no reason I can think of to bypass the need for someone to use a Superuser password when installing, this makes any damage caused by malicious software totally the fault of the end user who installed it.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by AlbertP »

I'll tell about my experience with drivers on Linux.

I recently installed Windows Vista Ultimate (Dutch) over a Spanish Windows Vista Home Premium (laptop came from Mexico). The laptop's sound + and - buttons refused to work: the driver was only for Vista Home Premium and XP Home. On Vista Ultimate (& XP Professional) it refused to install (and it also complained about the language).
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by owend »

Nexus: I was generalising when I said one-click. As I said in a previous post, I am in favour of Linux asking for passwords before doing anything radical: even if the password is on a post-it note on the monitor bezel for all to see, typing it makes you think! I suppose I really meant "simplify": for instance when the installer asks you whether you want 25 dependencies. I don't know what most of them are (and I suspect nor do 99% of Linuxers), so I just click yes -if I decided to download an application why would I not want the dependencies it needs?

Perhaps right at the start, a checkbox for either "accept all defaults, eg download all dependencies" or "custom install".

Now between us we've redesigned software installation, can we have some royalties please? :lol:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kernowmint »

I think the main reason is hardware compatibility. If people want everything to work instantly, it's not necessarily impatience, it's often because they simply haven't got time to spend searching online forums for answers to questions and then trying the suggestions out just to get their printer to work. Most people lead busy lives and need to switch on their computer and get things done immediately. Not everyone uses a computer just for fun, for many it's just another household appliance and it has to work when they need it to work.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MagnaWolf »

I'm a pretty advanced Windows user. Have been using Windows since -97. I've been experimenting with linux for the last 4 years. All I can say is that MS is very good at embracing the n00b computer user. Apple is more so. I've been trying to get my non-computer friends on to Linux but it is still TOO complicated for 'em too understand Linux. They still want to use Windows or Mac since those OS leads them by the hand concerning setting up network or installing software or hardware.

Sorry about my english.
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No net, no Mint?

Post by aes2011 »

One should be able to install Mint 11 to the hard disk from a Live CD or DVD without needing an internet connection. I have the impression that I can't do the install on a standalone (literally) PC. So if someone just wants a functional PC running Libre Office, not necessarily the latest/greatest version, it's not possible without a net connection.

This is an issue in some countries.
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Re: No net, no Mint?

Post by Pilosopong Tasyo »

aes2011 wrote:One should be able to install Mint 11 to the hard disk from a Live CD or DVD without needing an internet connection. I have the impression that I can't do the install on a standalone (literally) PC. So if someone just wants a functional PC running Libre Office, not necessarily the latest/greatest version, it's not possible without a net connection.

This is an issue in some countries.
It's perfectly ok to install without an internet connection. The only reason why it's "required" is for the optional updates during install (language packs, additional codecs, etc.). Optional being the operative word here. Install using the defaults and ignore the warning.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by KBD47 »

I've been using Linux for just a few months. I think for a newbie the fear is: MS Windows sucks and is a pain in the rear when it starts acting up, so how much worse is Linux when everyone says it is harder to use. There is a terrible fear factor regarding Linux. The thing that drove me to Linux--yes, drove me forcefully, was that my desktop running XP got a killer virus and I could not bring myself to install XP on it again, so I took a leap into Linux. Knowing how ignorant I was I scoured the net trying to figure out which distributions would work best for my computer, and would require the least amount of learning curve. I found a good distro, and it worked well for me, but it was missing codecs that I badly needed for my music, and that was a bit of a pain to get working. But all the pain added together in learning and using Linux has not equaled the years of grief and daily irritations of running slow, bloated Windows software.
As for suggestions, from a newbie, I hope Mint continues putting out a more polished, user friendly Linux distro than Ubuntu. Ubuntu is nice eye-candy, but buggy, especially compared to Mint. I would like to see just once a year Mint release with an emphasis on the LTS release for newcomers. Why do we need two releases a year? Can't the updates keep the distro good for at least a year without a new release? I seriously think this is the number one problem with Ubuntu being buggy--the push for a new release every six months. A once a year release would likely be more stable with fewer bugs IMO.
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Re: No net, no Mint?

Post by aes2011 »

Pilosopong Tasyo wrote:... It's perfectly ok to install without an internet connection. The only reason why it's "required" is for the optional updates during install (language packs, additional codecs, etc.). Optional being the operative word here. Install using the defaults and ignore the warning.
I distinctly remember having a problem. But I really haven't done more than just install Mint on my laptop recently and so maybe I shouldn't argue :)

but ...

installing a new OS can be a heart-stopping matter for those attempting it without a guru at hand. So my suggestion would be to let the install process go through completely without having to bother about anything and then prompting about the optionals if a net connection is successfully set up.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ladeda »

I think this thread has answered my original question about poor sound quality and jumpy media playback. Linux is just not geared towards the ultimate multimedia experience.

I'm loving Mint as an alternative OS for dead and dying computers, worn down by years of undiscovered virus's and ignorant owners. Simply install mint and, viola, a useful computer to access internet,hotmail / gmail and read/write documents. For some it's the difference between a working computer and spending hundreds of dollars on a new computer that they will once again neglect by letting the antivirus expire, not knowing how to delete temp files and downloading uneccessary software.

I would not have Mint for my main computer but I am enjoying it on a second (older) laptop.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by CaptHilts »

ladeda wrote:I think this thread has answered my original question about poor sound quality and jumpy media playback. Linux is just not geared towards the ultimate multimedia experience.
well, i gotta disagree with this statement...i've never experienced jumpy media playback under linux - no matter what format (films and TV shows i usually go for 720p in .mkv, no problems with 1080p either) and music...well, i've got all kinds of formats, from mp3 to flac, never any issue whatsoever. In fact, i've experienced better sound quality under linux...all in all, the problem is if you wanna generalize; i saw people who couldn't get their graphics card driver to work after switching from windows vista to windows 7 or a mac user wanting to give me a file that would've requested to wait for 2hours to transfer a film (700MB) from their mac to a usb stick (we gave up after 15min :wink: )

Personal experience is all fine but the leap from "it doesn't work for me" to "it's not really good in general" still stays unjustified imo.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kmb42vt »

ladeda wrote:I think this thread has answered my original question about poor sound quality and jumpy media playback. Linux is just not geared towards the ultimate multimedia experience.

I'm loving Mint as an alternative OS for dead and dying computers, worn down by years of undiscovered virus's and ignorant owners. Simply install mint and, viola, a useful computer to access internet,hotmail / gmail and read/write documents. For some it's the difference between a working computer and spending hundreds of dollars on a new computer that they will once again neglect by letting the antivirus expire, not knowing how to delete temp files and downloading uneccessary software.

I would not have Mint for my main computer but I am enjoying it on a second (older) laptop.
Heh, I can see where you might get that idea but unfortunately, it's often a false impression as in my experience the majority of users that I've talked with face to face or online have had no problems with the media experience on the more popular GNU/Linux distros least of all Linux Mint (but does depend on which version/edition of Linux Mint you run as to whether you need to do some tweaking or not). Still, it's matter of what hardware you have Mint installed on and whether or not the correct codecs are installed and you've installed the correct proprietary drivers or not. That plus the type of hardware you're using.

Me? I have no problem with the multimedia experience using Linux Mint But that's just my experience.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ladeda »

kmb42vt wrote: Still, it's matter of what hardware you have Mint installed on and whether or not the correct codecs are installed and you've installed the correct proprietary drivers or not. That plus the type of hardware you're using.

Me? I have no problem with the multimedia experience using Linux Mint But that's just my experience.
And therein lies the problem...

As a newbie I can't seem to find how to download hardware specific drivers or codecs. One assumes that the drivers are distro specific? How does one know if the specific distro is going to help or hinder any hardware problems? From the forums I've read, in the short time I've had experience with Mint 10, I read numerous stories of incompatibility with one or more hardware components of their specific system. For those lucky enough to have a system that works perfectly with Linux, then I can see why it would give Windows a run for it's money. Unfortunately I couldn't find a fix for the audio driver compatibility issue on the old laptop I had so have given it to someone who is not into multimedia and appreciative of a working laptop with internet.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kmb42vt »

ladeda wrote:And therein lies the problem...

As a newbie I can't seem to find how to download hardware specific drivers or codecs. One assumes that the drivers are distro specific? How does one know if the specific distro is going to help or hinder any hardware problems? From the forums I've read, in the short time I've had experience with Mint 10, I read numerous stories of incompatibility with one or more hardware components of their specific system. For those lucky enough to have a system that works perfectly with Linux, then I can see why it would give Windows a run for it's money. Unfortunately I couldn't find a fix for the audio driver compatibility issue on the old laptop I had so have given it to someone who is not into multimedia and appreciative of a working laptop with internet.
Just a wee bit of information here just in case it helps with the understanding of things:

Actually, the drivers aren't distro specific as all GNU/Linux distros, with only one or two very unique exceptions, have the same exact architecture/hierarchy of directories and files. In other words, they all work the same way. It's only the Desktop Environment (Gnome, KDE, LDXE, XFCE, etc) that's different and the DE has nothing to do with drivers. The other thing that's different is the type of format packages come in, .deb or .rpm for instance and the way that packages and drivers are installed. Ubuntu and Ubuntu based distros like Linux Mint 11 along with Pardus, Chakra Linux and a few others have the easiest driver installation going being semi-automatic (after install) or automatic (during install) while other distros like Linux Mint Debian Edition (based on Debian Testing) require manual installation which is also quite easy despite being being manual. The point being that it's all the same drivers but the packaging and way of installing can be different. However, once you pick a distro you like and stick with it then things like driver installation and tweaking become much easier.

In essence, it's not the how the driver is installed into the system but the way you have to install it. The thing to keep in mind here is that all operating systems are susceptible to the same problem--lack of drivers for old and/or unique proprietary hardware (sometimes even unique to the PC manufacturer and not "off-the-shelf"). Believe me, folks who have attempted a clean install of Windows using an actual (off-the-shelf) Windows install disk rather than using some sort of Windows recovery disk/partition that came with the computer itself in which all drivers for that specific PC/Laptop are already incorporated, run into the same exact problem with driver availability. Some are built into Windows or it's kernel, some are not and there may be one or two that simply are no longer available.

Okay, it doesn't answer your audio problems but hopefully it gives you a better idea how things are as far as drivers vs hardware vs distros are concerned. And by the way, I was a newbie like yourself when I switched to Linux 4 years ago. And I'm just a crazy old behind-the-times geek who burns up time on Google's search servers searching for info on problems until I find a fix. :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by .William. »

My history with Linux is only two years old, and my Mint history as far as being member of the LM forums over a year. So far, I have seen and red much more then I have written/posted on the forums. Currently I do not feel confident deleting my Windows part of my dual-boot with Mint. In my opinion Linux, including Mint, Mandriva, Fedora, PCLinux OS, are all by far not ready to replace Windows. Ofcourse on Linux forums youŕe supposed to rather speak of "That other OS", but I don't think anyone will confuse Linux with Windows. As long as I need to solve most issues on my laptop Pc by using a command terminal, I am convinced that the title "a good alternative for Windows" or the "best Linux system for ex-Windows users to start with" are just hollow phrases. It assumes you can train people who are not even properly trained to use 99% GUI Windows. It assumes these people are trainable. But in fact they are mostly just not trainable, or simply not interested in Pc's to the level of wanting to learn command-line programming.

The gap between computer-programmers and real live end-users is evident to me, and to many people who posted in this topic before me. Btw I have also posted in this topic before.

Now what you need is a middle-man (m/f) to help these two communicate and understand each other. Ofcourse the active presence on the forums of the programmers is invaluable, but they often lack patience and understanding. Programmers will always have new programming tasks laying ahead of them and when they need to also solve most problems through forums they won have time left to further develop the software. Result in the end is that communication will simply end. In my opinion it is also easy to hide behind the communality of Linux. E.g. "No, I can't help you, go submit a ticket at Launchpad, since it is not a Mint application". In my opinion the support within a distro should be much wider than it is. That is if you want to replace Windows. My clock in Mint hasn't shown any correct weather info since a year. It always says it's the same weather. Apparently I live in a country without climate or seasons. This is probably the most minor grievance of all the minor and larger ones I have, that I also do not expect to be ever solved. If I want to get my Mint working the way it should with Mint I would have to:
a) Move to the USA - since the most complete settings are for Americans.
b) Become member of dozens of different forums - since I will be referred to the different applications creators all the time.
c) Buy one of the tree mainstream computers since the parts used in my laptop will probably never be supported by the Mint team, who will just sit and wait for factories to supply the proper drivers instead of harassing them until they give in. For example: Silicone Integrated Systems has had a Linux 3d graphics driver laying ready in a drawer for over two years, but won't release them until a valid party asks them to do so. They are a OEM-chips supplier and won't release anything to end-users. I as end-user am quite unable to do anything about that, but although relative compared to giants like MS, the Linux corporations have much more cloud then I do. But they won't do anything, since they prefer to work for the largest common factor and go for the new and trendy chips. Too bad for third world students who can not afford the main brands computers.

You may state that a fresh install of Windows doesn't provide all needed drivers but at least you can find them on the websites of the producers of the chips. If Linux doesn't take a more aggressive approach towards these producers demanding them to supply the needed drivers, then I do not think Linux can replace Windows. These are just my thoughts, and I am well aware that expressing them won't do any good, but at least when I leave it won't leave anyone behind wondering why. (assuming anyone cares)

Reading the above you may understand that I do not think that I will have a Linux Mint installation going into the third year. :)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Kevin108 »

The biggest reason I've given up on Linux so many times over the years is that I know too much about DOS and Windows. Upgrades, customization, repairs, performance tweaks, etc. I can do with my eyes closed. I've spent years collecting the programs I use and the user habits I have. Often I've needed to get a system back up and running in short order for work, school or other such day to day factors.

What's different this time is that my wife and I both have smartphones and netbooks plus the Wii running Homebrew as a media center in the living room. The desktop is no longer our sole source for internet, Netflix, etc. It's still what I use for the heavy lifting like converting AVIs to MP4s, editing documents and photos, backing up the smaller devices and burning discs, but for the first time ever, I've actually had time for my desktop to be "down" while I learned what I needed for Linux to do the same things I was doing in Windows.

I may have to give her back some form of Windows when she starts back to school the first of the year but I've already installed VirtualBox and the XP install that lives inside it is ready to roll. As easy as it would be for me to go back to XP, I'm having a ball with what I'm learning and doing right now. Long-term, I think learning a few Linux tricks now will ultimately save me time versus the system maintenance and virus removal that I know Windows would need from time to time. Honestly, I see me sticking with Linux, and most likely Mint.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by wei2912 »

I have a friend which experienced a problem when we used Linux Mint and started to hate it ever since, while he was fine with the multiple problems of Windows (browser crash, etc.). We need to change people's attitude to new things to let them accept Linux.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Anakinholland »

Kevin108 wrote:The biggest reason I've given up on Linux so many times over the years is that I know too much about DOS and Windows.
This.

It requires a certain mindset. In my opinion Linux is easier to learn for someone that has never worked with computers, than for someone that has worked with a different OS before.

Him: "Ok, so where's Start?"
Me: "What do want to do?"
Him: "Open the menu to start an application."
Me: "What does that button say?"
Him: "Menu. Oh... Right..."

Her: "I can't find Mozilla Firefox anywhere!? I just want to read my webmail..."
Me: "Can you please open Menu, and click Browse the web?"
Her: "Sheesh, that was easy!"

And there's plenty more of those examples we probably all experienced? :) People get so used to the way that particular OS works, they become "automated" steps, leaving them gasping for air when those steps don't work any more. I know I did.

Cheers,

Anakin
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by .William. »

@Anakin: Did I forget to mention: 'Compatibility issues with the web and 90% of all other PC users' ? Developers for Windows will not consider Linux during their development work. Every time something new is released Linux needs to make it compatible with itself.. :roll:
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