Why do new people give up on Linux?

[RollyShed]

No. My attitude is "you can't help everyone".

I've found that especially with SeniorNet people, it has to be Windows, it has to be Microsoft products. Very short-sighted approach.

When they're waiting on you to fix something, they will be absolutely polite...but you're burdening them with the anxiety that "they are leaning on you"...and they feel like they are imposing,

A recent case, I needed some welding on our caravan. As my daughter was now 1000 km away (and had taken her welder and lathe with her) one of our Shed members did it. His computer? Now running Linux Mint with an SSD and full support. The term is "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."

Then you have the anxiety when you can't meet their needs promptly,

They get it when they get it. PLUS, all the things I learn each time, every installation has some little quirk.

Remember, computers were invented for us grey haired ones to keep our brains active.

One day the kids might switch their brains on too.

So for people that aren't overly "tech savvy"...or seniors

As above, invented to keep our brains active.

...or some folks that aren't that committed to learning new computer systems, my advice is: "Buy a Mac and subscribe to Apple Care".

I'd never ever suggest that. Totally over priced and no long life.

[MartyMint]

One day the kids might switch their brains on too.

I'd say they're doing fairly well considering the very little the previous generations have left them.

[RollyShed]

One day the kids might switch their brains on too.

I'd say they're doing fairly well considering the very little the previous generations have left them.

Such as?
As someone pointed out, a vehicle manual told you how to strip the engine down and repair it. Now it has to warn, "Don't drink the battery fluid."

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...So for people that aren't overly "tech savvy"...or seniors...or some folks that aren't that committed to learning new computer systems, my advice is:
"Buy a Mac and subscribe to Apple Care"...

Hey! I don't appreciate that "senior" crack!

Also, how do you expect people who are not overly "tech savvy" to become "tech savvy" if elitists like you blow them off and aren't willing to help them learn?

[MartyMint]

Hey! I don't appreciate that "senior" crack!

It wasn't a jab. It was practical advice.

Also, how do you expect people who are not overly "tech savvy" to become "tech savvy" if elitists like you blow them off and aren't willing to help them learn?

The number of people that have been dragged into learning a completely new computing paradigm and adopted it, lies somewhere in the realm of statistical noise.
Most folks frustrations with Windows are based in "bad" computer habits...chiefly ZERO maintenance (cleaning, maintenance, treating machines delicately...).
They just transpose the same sloppy workflow over to Linux...then you're the one that's responsible for their woes...with your silly and frivolous Linux.

The only people that take to Linux are the ones that come into it with an inquisitive and open mind (i.e. a woefully minuscule fraction). For every one else, there's Apple Care, or the trip to Walmart every 24 months for the cheapest Celeron laptop off the shelf.

If only half of the "conversion stories" I've read on this forum and others were true, we'd have broken double digit market penetration figures ages ago.

[RollyShed]

If only half of the "conversion stories" I've read on this forum and others were true, we'd have broken double digit market penetration figures ages ago.

Double digit, i.e. more than 10 ? OK, personally well ahead of that. Maybe 30 installations.

What I can hear is a total lack of, "What do you want to do with your computer?" being asked or answered here.

If it is use the web browser (emails, websites, info, facebook, etc.), maybe write a document, a spreadsheet to keep track of the kid's birthdays, possibly play some music, where is the problem?

Once set up to do that a Linux computer will keep doing it, on and on and on.

A Windows computer will crash every month or so. A Mac will go out of date and need replacement.

[MartyMint]

If it is use the web browser (emails, websites, info, facebook, etc.), maybe write a document, a spreadsheet to keep track of the kid's birthdays, possibly play some music, where is the problem?

Once set up to do that a Linux computer will keep doing it, on and on and on.

A Windows computer will crash every month or so. A Mac will go out of date and need replacement.

Great points. None of which mean anything in "computer normie land".
People are comfortable in familiarity and brand recognition. Getting the average user to A/B test Linux against Microsoft and Apple...and expecting some kind of reversal is quaint...but not based in reality.

Shall we go through the roles of past forum members who bust on the Linux Mint scene, blowing hard about Bill Gates stealing their money (for some bizarre reason)...spelling Microsoft with a dollar sign...having an avatar of Tux stomping the Windows logo...swearing an oath of loyalty to FOSS...
...only to disappear after two or three weeks?

[RollyShed]

Great points. None of which mean anything in "computer normie land".

What is meant by that? I'm talking about computer users who are running Linux because it is fast and reliable and doesn't break every month.

Note - USERS of computers.

People are comfortable in familiarity and brand recognition. Getting the average user to A/B test Linux against Microsoft and Apple...and expecting some kind of reversal is quaint...but not based in reality.

I'm talking about users who want to use a computer to do a job, not skite about what system they are using.

Shall we go through the roles of past forum members who bust on the Linux Mint scene, blowing hard about Bill Gates stealing their money (for some bizarre reason)...spelling Microsoft with a dollar sign...having an avatar of Tux stomping the Windows logo...swearing an oath of loyalty to FOSS...
...only to disappear after two or three weeks?

Probably not as we are talking about users, not flag wavers.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

I posted a video a while back that spoke about this topic. I stumbled on a couple more like it recently that I feel is worth sharing here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qx6Hly33_E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UH5qUhgUS8

[MartyMint]

Corporate propaganda and brand brainwashing.

The reason people would rather pirate a 10 year old copy of Photoshop than adopt an equal or superior Blender or Gimp.

"If Linux was any good, it wouldn't be free."

You overestimate the motivations of the uninterested masses. How many "converts" has Linux picked up with the launch of the gulag that is Windows 10?
Privacy? Normie Mom and Dad just want to turn on their internet boxes and log onto the Facebooks and Amazon.

[RollyShed]

Unknowing Linux users -

The Chromebook, what system does it use? Linux?
Android, what is it based on? Linux?

If so a lot of people are using Linux without realising it. Chromebooks - a lot of our schools use them and in our district, the library computers are all Chromebooks.

[MurphCID]

Unknowing Linux users -

The Chromebook, what system does it use? Linux?
Android, what is it based on? Linux?

If so a lot of people are using Linux without realising it. Chromebooks - a lot of our schools use them and in our district, the library computers are all Chromebooks.

Chrome is not Linux, it just uses parts of Linux. Chrome us useless unless you have an internet connection, you can't get anything done on Chrome without a connection. Linux allows you to work unplugged.

[t42]

This post is a honeypot. It is so an ambiguous question. Why do new people give up on Linux - is it about users psychology, IQ, education, or is it about hardware availability (users never give up on Android, it is "inside"), or it is about Linux UI, or bad marketing strategy of the Linux Corporation, a technology company with headquarters in Dunthorpe, Oregon? Imagine you discuss on some Windows user forum something like "How we can increase Windows 10 sales" - absurd, isn't it?. I think the original poster didn't understand at the time of posting hugely complex Linux ecosystem.

But most important factor which can really improve Linux popularity is outside our control: would hardware companies put more effort into developing drivers for Linux.

Windows is specifically designed to hide from users all complexities, possible problems and under the hood possibilities, it's full opposite of Linux unlimited experience. Is downhill skiing dangerous for beginners, is it worth the risk? It's not for me to decide.

[absque fenestris]

I like the post above from t42.

Darwin's selection pattern: you need a certain level of fitness to survive. In digital areas too - and for those who can't make it, well-known providers of lovingly monitored and maintained systems in different flavors offer their helpful hand.
Nobody is discriminated or disadvantaged because the applications in all operating systems are essentially the same.
In comparison, a classic library is grueling, brutal and exclusive.

[Hoser Rob]

...So for people that aren't overly "tech savvy"...or seniors...or some folks that aren't that committed to learning new computer systems, my advice is:
"Buy a Mac and subscribe to Apple Care"...

Hey! I don't appreciate that "senior" crack!

Also, how do you expect people who are not overly "tech savvy" to become "tech savvy" if elitists like you blow them off and aren't willing to help them learn?

Users are expected to spend some time and effort teaching themselves, this forum (like all Linux support sites except for distros you have to pay for) is a volunteer forum and you cannot expect spoon feeding from volunteers.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

...So for people that aren't overly "tech savvy"...or seniors...or some folks that aren't that committed to learning new computer systems, my advice is:
"Buy a Mac and subscribe to Apple Care"...

Hey! I don't appreciate that "senior" crack!

Also, how do you expect people who are not overly "tech savvy" to become "tech savvy" if elitists like you blow them off and aren't willing to help them learn?

Users are expected to spend some time and effort teaching themselves, this forum (like all Linux support sites except for distros you have to pay for) is a volunteer forum and you cannot expect spoon feeding from volunteers.

And that is the attitude that drives many people away from getting started with Linux. You really need to watch those videos I linked in my earlier post.

[Moem]

Users are expected to spend some time and effort teaching themselves, this forum (like all Linux support sites except for distros you have to pay for) is a volunteer forum and you cannot expect spoon feeding from volunteers.

And that is the attitude that drives many people away from getting started with Linux.

Is it not true, then? I find that most people will have a much better time using Linux if they are willing to spend a little bit of effort to familiarize themselves with the new OS.

[Portreve]

This post is a honeypot. It is so an ambiguous question. Why do new people give up on Linux - is it about users psychology, IQ, education, or is it about hardware availability (users never give up on Android, it is "inside"), or it is about Linux UI, or bad marketing strategy of the Linux Corporation, a technology company with headquarters in Dunthorpe, Oregon? Imagine you discuss on some Windows user forum something like "How we can increase Windows 10 sales" - absurd, isn't it?. I think the original poster didn't understand at the time of posting hugely complex Linux ecosystem.

This really made me smile. I agree there is an element of Social Darwinism at play here, but I do have to wonder if this is truly unique to GNU+Linux. I think it just takes different forms.

But most important factor which can really improve Linux popularity is outside our control: would hardware companies put more effort into developing drivers for Linux.

And now we've come home to the chicken-n-egg argument. Personally, I think we're now to the point where, for most use cases, hardware support simply isn't a factor. First, the supermajority of mainstream hardware, particularly at the point of interface, is supported. And because the dev community for the most part tends to be pretty Johnny-on-the-spot when it comes to supporting new things as well as the fact that the dev community generally doesn't go after supporting one specific device but rather supporting the underlying components (which means multiple finished end products will spontaneously start working all at the same time), it simply isn't that big of a deal anymore.

This, of course, doesn't cover all possibly special use cases, but then again, neither do the other two major players. For example, if someone specifically wants a program which takes them from professional grade musical instrument instruction to making recordable, multitrack music with huge libraries of samples, etc., that person is going to probably be using Garage Band, and so even Windows would not support their use case. In other words, it's not just GNU+Linux which might leave someone in the cold: at some point, they all do.

Windows is specifically designed to hide from users all complexities, possible problems and under the hood possibilities, it's full opposite of Linux unlimited experience. Is downhill skiing dangerous for beginners, is it worth the risk? It's not for me to decide.

Mac OS and Mac OS X / macOS arguably have Windows beat here, because it's still possible for a "Windows system" to drop to text mode or for other, not-so-user-friendly things to display.

And in general, mainstream distros are all about making the user experience nice. There's no sin there.

[majpooper]

So your attitude is "Don't help anyone." ?

No. My attitude is "you can't help everyone".
When they're waiting on you to fix something, they will be absolutely polite...but you're burdening them with the anxiety that "they are leaning on you"...and they feel like they are imposing, no matter how much you tell them to the contrary. Then you have the anxiety when you can't meet their needs promptly, no matter how much they say "oh take you time...it's no bother really".

So for people that aren't overly "tech savvy"...or seniors...or some folks that aren't that committed to learning new computer systems, my advice is:
"Buy a Mac and subscribe to Apple Care".

Sorry...but there's the enthusiasm for Linux all of us feel...and then there's reality. Computers mean different things to different folks.

I guess it really depends on the relationship you have with who you are installing Linux for. I have done this for several folks and actually enjoy being their support - it really is much more rewarding than demanding.
My wife, my sister, and elderly couple on a fixed income, a buddy, and a Middle School girl from a poor family. Some of them can not afford expensive Macs and have over paid for support at Big Box computer stores when they had a Windows machine.

The only .... not sure how to characterize ... shall I say negative experience is for someone I installed linux for on an old laptop. It ran OK but still it was not blazing fast. Turns out after a few months they decided to buy a new laptop with Windows, which evidently they preferred. When I couldn't help them with their Windows problems (they couldn't explain them and I had know earthly idea what they were describing) I got the distinct feeling they thought I was putting them off because they switched back to Windows.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Users are expected to spend some time and effort teaching themselves, this forum (like all Linux support sites except for distros you have to pay for) is a volunteer forum and you cannot expect spoon feeding from volunteers.

And that is the attitude that drives many people away from getting started with Linux.

Is it not true, then? I find that most people will have a much better time using Linux if they are willing to spend a little bit of effort to familiarize themselves with the new OS.

It depends. In my recent experience trying to find out how to enable TRIM on a TRIM compatible external USB connected 2.5" drive controller, the only directions I could find or (others gave me) were incomplete. One person posting in the thread said I was "so close" then posted a set of directions that went completely over my head. I replied that they had gone over my head to which the person replied he was astounded I didn't how to use a text editor and suggested I search for the information on how to use one, then left me hanging.

It turned out all that was missing from the most complete directions were two lousy little keystrokes (something I later discovered by dumb luck after I had all but given up on getting TRIM to work through USB). If someone asks you for a word in a language, do you tell them to go back to school and learn that language even if they may never need to use that language? No, you just tell them the word. In my case, I had already put in hours of research over a period of a few weeks with no results only to have someone come along and tell me I was so close, then tell me to spend potentially hours more time to find out that there were only two lousy key strokes I need to know.

Yes, it would have benefited me to learn about how to work with text editors--and, eventually, I will--but what I needed at the time was to find out how to get the blasted (polite term) enclosure to work with TRIM so I could get on with other things that had a far higher priority than learning how to use something I may or may not need to know anytime soon. Often, hand holding and spoon feeding is all many people need to make progress instead of getting bogged down on a lot of details they don't need at the time and may or may not need later. It's no wonder many people get discouraged and give up.

Another point: I specifically asked if was anyone who used a certain program who could answer three questions I had about that program. The first response was suggest another program. I responded that was not the type of program I needed and tried to explain why. The next post was that a I read the man file for the program that was suggested. I've never been able to make sense of a man file but I tried and couldn't find anything that might be remotely related to my questions. The person replied back it was easy to do what I wanted (maybe for him but not for me). So far, no one has answered any of my questions about the program I was asking about. In my reply, asked if we could get back to my original questions.

The next post was, again, about the suggested program instead the one I was asking about. Again, I asked to get back to my original questions.

The next post was about a program I had used on another Linux computer but would work on my current computer as an example of what I was wanting (for the record, I had already wasted hours over several weeks trying to get it to work, including searching the interwebz and asking on the program's forum to no avail followed by an alternate procedure. Again, my original questions were being ignored and I had to explain why the alternate procedure wouldn't work.

Finally, in the 11th post after my first post, someone who used the program I was asking about answered two of my questions (they were simple questions that only needed simple answers). One of the answers was all I needed to know to determine the program I was asking about wouldn't meet my needs, which explained after I thanked the poster for the answers and marked the thread as solved.

Then someone came along and said the program I asked about could do what I was wanting without saying how. When I asked how, the response was essentially RTFM. There were a few more posts after that which went nowhere.

I've seen this kind of exchange going on many times before (in Linux and Windows forums). Again, it's not surprising many Linux newbies get put off when they can't get simple answers to simple questions. To be fair, all the people who were replying in that thread were trying to be helpful. However, it was kinda like when a young child asks a parent where they came from and the parent launches into a detailed explanation of human reproduction (which most children at that age would find gross!) when replying with the name of the place they were born is all the child wanted to know.

I posted the following two links earlier but I'm going to post them again since apparently the people who really need to watch them haven't (I'm not singling out any one person or persons; I just feel they should be required viewing for the entire Linux community):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UH5qUhgUS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qx6Hly33_E

These more eloquently make the points I'm trying to make.