Why do new people give up on Linux?

Chat about Linux in general
Lady Fitzgerald
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

majpooper wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:49 pm
t42 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:38 pm
majpooper wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:02 pm
My sister, who I installed LM 17 for because Windows was a problem
So am I. My sister is a mainframe computer engineer (I'm almost sure they are still using nine-track tapes). In 2014 I installed for her LM17 and she liked it. Sometimes I ask her "you didn't forget about updates" and each time she gave me a long stare but didn't answer the question...
I know - I just don't get it . . . . what is sooooo hard about updates and backups?
Mint updates are easy. When the ✓ in the Update Manager icon in the panel disappears, click on it, and apply the update. If it afterwards needs a reboot (pretty much only after a kernal update), the manager will tell you. As long as you make frequent Timeshift snapshots, you don't have to worry about an update going sideways; I like to make one just before kernal and any other suspicious backups.

When it comes to program updates, I'm a member of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. I update those only for bug fixes and security updates. If in doubt as to what the update is for, I just make a Timeshift snapshot before applying the update.

Backups are another story. There is a lot of controversy and misconceptions surrounding backups. Depending on one's hardware and the amount of data one has, it can be simple or a real problem. Linux doesn't have as many good backup programs as Windows and they can range from being somewhat easy to use to really problematic, depending on the users' knowledge, hardware, needs, and volume of data.

Also, most newbies don't understand the need for backups until they lose their data. Many experienced users seem to think (erroneously) that HDDs, and, by extension, SSDs will always give warning before failing, not realizing drive failure is not the only way to lose data. Or they will fail to budget for backups (or are just too cheap) when first creating and later expanding storage space.

A common misconception is that RAID, in itself, is a backup. It is not; it is only redundancy that only might protect against data loss if, depending on the type of redundancy, a drive or two is lost. Redundancy will not protect from other causes of data loss.

Another misconception that keeps many people from backing up their data is it takes too long or is too much work. Actually, when data storage has been set up correctly, maintaining proper backups will involve only a minute or two to initiate, then the computer does the rest of the work while the user does something else, including using the computer.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MartyMint »

In my travels, I almost never see users make backups of any sort.
Too many people are convinced that "losing data is just an uncomfortable reality in using computers".

The most confounding cases are when folks suffer catastrophic data loss twice....
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MartyMint »

"You know, I could help you back up all the data on all your devices. You can get an external hard drive for less than $60 and..."

"$60? Uhhh...yeah....we should maybe do that...next week...maybe..."


...they say while they're ordering Uber Eats or flipping through Netflix....

:roll:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by majpooper »

MartyMint wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
"You know, I could help you back up all the data on all your devices. You can get an external hard drive for less than $60 and..."

"$60? Uhhh...yeah....we should maybe do that...next week...maybe..."


...they say while they're ordering Uber Eats or flipping through Netflix....

:roll:
Yep - been there.

I started just starting setting up automatic updates for the people I install LM for. Yeah I explain the check mark/i thing and they shake their heads like they understand and then I find out later they have forgotten to do updates.
Same with back-ups - I explain if they get an external HD I will even set it up for them . . . . they agree it's a good idea and they will definitely do that and that is the last I hear of back-ups.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MartyMint »

majpooper wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:18 pm
Same with back-ups - I explain if they get an external HD I will even set it up for them . . . .
People won't even do the most basic, brutally rudimentary form of data backup, namely drag-and-drop essential documents onto a thumb drive...


Because if something happens, they believe they can download some "Save all you data" program, or worst case, the computer shop can save your stuff for like...I dunno...$50 or something? But It'll never happen.... :roll:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

"You know, I could help you back up all the data on all your devices. You can get an external hard drive for less than $60 and..."
"$60? Uhhh...yeah....we should maybe do that...next week...maybe..."
People won't even do the most basic, brutally rudimentary form of data backup, namely drag-and-drop essential documents onto a thumb drive..
Agreed...Thumbdrives are my preferred way Precisely because they are so cheap, (I use SanDisk Cruiser Glides and NEVER use "bargain" USBs), as i keep 3 of them for redundencies sake with all of my Document files, pics, movies, music videos, etc. as well as one dedicated OS, ISO, since i like clean installs if anything should happen...Since 2016, nothing has happened to make any of this necessary, but i keep them all up to date anyways, it only takes a few minutes every month or so...You never know If or when it can happen to you, but as the old saying goes..."Proper Preparation Prevents P*** Poor Performance", as well as the ever popular, "He Who Fails To Prepare, Prepares To Fail"...DAMIEN
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by majpooper »

Updates I do manually because I am curious - often they are ones I am pretty sure I don't need but they may contain an update to a dependency for something that I do need so I will install it but still I want to know what I am updating.

Back-ups are painless - basically they are invisible - Backintime and Timeshift go to a 3T external HD - I keep the initial install and as automatic back-ups of each take place periodically older snapshots are shed but there are always several snapshots of each should I need them - never have. Occasionally I will copy a snaphot from the 3T external hard drive to and old 1T HD just in case the back-up fails . . . . . back-up the back-up ?

If I can vent on one other thing . . . . exactly three of the six people I installed linux for did nothing to lock down their wireless router. But one person wanted to know what AV they should get . . . . you know for security.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DAMIEN1307 »

If I can vent on one other thing . . . . exactly three of the six people I installed linux for did nothing to lock down their wireless router. But one person wanted to know what AV they should get . . . . you know for security.
Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahah...Thank you for that majpooper...i cant stop laughing...That just made my day and its only 8:05 am MST...DAMIEN
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ZakGordon »

Not to get too technical on it, and just going on a couple of gotcha's i run into over the short 5 years or so i started using Linux, i would say that either people have HUGE trouble getting going (just look at the newbie forums and install forums for over-sight) and don't always get the help required to get over that before freaking out back to windows/Apple etc. OR they will be a happy user for a decent while, get new hardware and have the problems seen in the first category just mentioned.

This is part by design, as Windows has made sure ALL hardware 'prefers' it's OS and now actually put deliberate blocks in the way to actively stop new hardware running easily on/with Linux (you see this especially in branded laptops like HP and Dell and how often win10 takes over a dual boot system etc). I don't think they are interested in Linux at all other than to understand how to reduce it's appeal to the wider 'joe average' computer user, while learning how to exploit it for profit and eventually make it less effective as an alternative to Windows OS. That's just my hunch, but i've accurately predicted Windows OS since Windows 8 and not been wrong yet ;)
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by jpcy »

ZakGordon wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:24 pm
Not to get too technical on it, and just going on a couple of gotcha's i run into over the short 5 years or so i started using Linux, i would say that either people have HUGE trouble getting going (just look at the newbie forums and install forums for over-sight) and don't always get the help required to get over that before freaking out back to windows/Apple etc. OR they will be a happy user for a decent while, get new hardware and have the problems seen in the first category just mentioned.

This is part by design, as Windows has made sure ALL hardware 'prefers' it's OS and now actually put deliberate blocks in the way to actively stop new hardware running easily on/with Linux (you see this especially in branded laptops like HP and Dell and how often win10 takes over a dual boot system etc). I don't think they are interested in Linux at all other than to understand how to reduce it's appeal to the wider 'joe average' computer user, while learning how to exploit it for profit and eventually make it less effective as an alternative to Windows OS. That's just my hunch, but i've accurately predicted Windows OS since Windows 8 and not been wrong yet ;)
I would think that adequate documentation would greatly help the situation.

I mean, if people KNEW what to expect BEFORE they installed Linux, maybe they wouldn't be so afraid of, or angered by, it's quirkiness/differences.

I don't think it's as much a fear of change as much as having a valid reason for the change.

For example, if I know that a single click in the Windows environment does what I want, yet a separate program, several clicks and a keypress will do the same in Linux, I am going to wonder why I have to do *more* (or more complex) things on this "better" system to get the same result as the "bad" system.

I am a big believer that software is 80% documentation, 20% code. I see a lot projects that seem to be anywhere from 5 to (maybe) 15% documentation, which limits the knowledge and expectations that anyone else can possibly have about the software.

The initial experience of a new Linux is one of an Everest-type learning curve, incomplete or inadequate documentation and oodles and oodles of conjecture and presumption. This is not managing anyone's expectations or understanding of what their specific distro's philosophy actually is. The devs assume people will 'just be able to use it because it is simple' yet don't even consider about another's fresh perspective. Apparently unable to understand that others do not know what they know and to presume they do (or should) is just ignorant and wrong.

Whilst some equate learning Linux anew to simply learning the words of a new language, the sentence structure and social/cultural references are also different, but those steeped in it seem to be oblivious to these further, maybe more relevant, differences.

I do think that Linux distros are, in a sense, very much more 'selfishly developed' than Windows in that Windows seems to conform to a wider, external set of it's user-base's requirements and expectations. Whereas Linux distros, in my experience, only usually have to conform to the dev teams expectations and there is nothing forcing the developers to account for differing ways of thinking or expectations of operation/functionality. Nothing to guide new users in their first steps. Some usually kick-off with some weak interstitial which shows links to community support forums/rooms (welp) which you have the option of never showing again but then can't find anywhere else.

I have also noticed a lot of asymmetry in the experience with many Linux distros. You can set an option in one location, but then you have to go round the houses elsewhere to toggle it back.

I.e. When using xfce4 panels, I right-click on an icon and sometimes I don't get a menu for the applet I am pointing at, I get the parent application's menu. There is also no way of telling the difference... Inconsistent (and confusing). I have two separate power management applets for managing system-wide power settings, yet they don't reflect the changes in the other's configuration... Inconsistent. There are many more which I can't specifically remember off-the-cuff. But, as has been mentioned previously, you just have to go around the support forums for an idea. Also check out the unanswered forum posts where the poster has kindly asked a question, waited patiently and been completely bypassed by the community! As a noob to many distros, I find it shocking and disheartening to see these cries for assistance (many relevant to my issues) simply ignored by the community.

I think consistency is key to providing a single streamlined experience of a system. I have found that even with complex systems, if there is consistency, it will help the user comprehend and utilise it better.

IMHO, understanding via verbose and explanatory documentation/information is key in removing FUD and helping to make people's assumptions realistic.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Lady Fitzgerald »

jpcy wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:45 pm
ZakGordon wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:24 pm
Not to get too technical on it...
I would think that adequate documentation would greatly help the situation...
Prexactly! Thank you! Add to that complete, step-by-step directions.

It's far too easy for people giving directions to forget what it's like to be a newbie and assume certain things are so basic, everyone knows them. Even people who aren't brand, spankin' new and have a fair amount of knowledge under their belts may still have small, even tiny, gaps in their knowledge and it those pesky little details that will get them in the end (pun intended).

I overheard an otherwise completely useless boss once advise someone to, when writing a report, assume the person who is going to read it is a "complete idiot" (his actual words). What he was crudely trying to say is to never assume whoever your reader is going to be will already know every detail so be sure to not leave any out, no matter how insignificant they may seem. That left handed advice served me well during the next 35 or so of my working years.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

jpcy wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:45 pm
I would think that adequate documentation would greatly help the situation.
For those who haven't used a computer, maybe. For the other user in this room, no documentation and none was needed after Microsoft destroyed her system.
I mean, if people KNEW what to expect BEFORE they installed Linux, maybe they wouldn't be so afraid of, or angered by, it's quirkiness/differences.
Because it is so similar, those who don't mentally say "I can't do it.", have no problems. The person I'm referring to simply sat down at the computer the next morning (now running Linux Mint) and carried on using it as usual. She has been doing that for the past two years.
I don't think it's as much a fear of change as much as having a valid reason for the change.
Such as Microsoft totally destroying their system?
For example, if I know that a single click in the Windows environment does what I want, yet a separate program, several clicks and a keypress will do the same in Linux,
Errrr? Example - Two clicks in Linux and a new folder. Is it four? in Windows to do the same. I've found Linux Mint far simpler and therefore easier to teach, where teaching has been needed.
I am a big believer that software is 80% documentation, 20% code. I see a lot projects that seem to be anywhere from 5 to (maybe) 15% documentation, which limits the knowledge and expectations that anyone else can possibly have about the software.
Are we talking about a User or a Coder? The majority of those using a computer simply use it, web browsing, documents, spreadsheets, facebook, and all those common things. Users, not Coders.
The initial experience of a new Linux is one of an Everest-type learning curve, incomplete or inadequate documentation and oodles and oodles of conjecture and presumption.
Not what we've found at all. simply use it.
This is not managing anyone's expectations or understanding of what their specific distro's philosophy actually is.
The philosophy is make it usable for every-day work.
The devs assume people will 'just be able to use it because it is simple' yet don't even consider about another's fresh perspective.
"fresh perspective" - what does that mean?

Bluntly, Linux Mint is a V8 under the bonnet but the steering wheel is still the same.

How many new users has the OP introduced to Linux Mint?
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by jpcy »

Lady Fitzgerald wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:08 pm
It's far too easy for people giving directions to forget what it's like to be a newbie and assume certain things are so basic, everyone knows them. Even people who aren't brand, spankin' new and have a fair amount of knowledge under their belts may still have small, even tiny, gaps in their knowledge and it those pesky little details that will get them in the end (pun intended).
Indeed. It's hard to UNknow something. Hard to understand what it is like to not have access to certain pieces of knowledge or information. And to then be told that you should 'just use it' is enough to put many people off. I have plenty of issues with community members who don't understand that their knowledge is not common knowledge. The fools that expect you to know everything they do need to grow up - substantially.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
For those who haven't used a computer, maybe.[...]
I disagree. You can't have used many systems if you think they all work the same way.
Windows == Linux == MacOS == ????
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
Because it is so similar, those who don't mentally say "I can't do it.", have no problems[...]
...In your personal experience. I am talking about the wider possibilities which you or I may or may not have experienced first-hand, but are certainly out there.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
Errrr? Example - Two clicks in Linux and a new folder. Is it four? in Windows to do the same. I've found Linux Mint far simpler and therefore easier to teach, where teaching has been needed.
Not my original point. The fact you needed to teach it means they weren't able to read up on it themselves and gain confidence in it's functionality. Can you understand what I am getting at here? Have you ever experienced someone finding it hard to understand the initial concepts, let alone how the concepts change from machine to machine? Mind, I suppose if you teach click-by-click, monkey-see-monkey-do, then it's much simpler.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
The majority of those using a computer simply use it[...]
[...]simply use it.[...]
That's a very simplistic view of things. Simply administer FreeSwitch? Simply deploy Kubernetes? DOCUMENTATION IS REQUIRED!
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
The philosophy is make it usable for every-day work.
Your ideas would make it easier for you, but what about everybody else? You are the only 'you' on this planet. Everybody else is different.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
"fresh perspective" - what does that mean?
By "fresh perspective" I mean "not yours" - A different perspective; A new perspective.
RollyShed wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:10 pm
"the steering wheel is still the same."
If that was the sole feature of every mode of transport, then I would understand.

However, the fuel type, dashboard devices, fuel-cap location, bodywork, turning circle, automatic wipers, gear ratios, seats and airbags are all DIFFERENT which is my point (and the point of many others, which many elitists neglect to pay any mind to.) By your wondrous musings, a VW Beetle driver would be perfectly qualified to drive a HGV as they both have a steering wheel - It simply isn't so.

Just be friendly and help people - It's human nature. Why would anyone not want to inform others, except to control their knowledge?

Your answer comes across as slightly facetious and overwhelmingly wrong. It's this simple: You can't presume what people will or won't know and no two people understand the same things in the same way.

You must assume that the person you are talking to does NOT know - Otherwise, why does anyone have a manual for anything if we should all just know someone else's concept and philosophy.

Developers (be it a bedroom coder, or professional) who presume that their users will miraculously KNOW how to use their software, because 'it's obvious', are basically deluded and ignorant. This doesn't apply to selected audiences or specific cases, but it does in the case of the mass adoption of any technology.

Anyway, you know what the Dirag's say about this sort of thing... Don't you? Or did I just presume knowledge of you? See how presumption DOESN'T work?? O.o

I am sorry if I seem a bit frustrated with your responses, but people like you are the reason there is little to no information about Linux systems and software. Thinking that 'just using it' will inform you as to the finer point of a piece of extremely complex software is either pig-headed or simply stupid.

We shouldn't need training. We shouldn't need hefty manuals. Just wider consideration of context in the interface and documentation which covers how the software works and what it expects.

It's not rocket science, it's just that people are lazy and won't do something unless they can see the point. Apparently a lot of coders don't see the point in informing people about their software and that is a big hurdle towards adoption.

You are special and don't need to learn things because it's all too simple and obvious to you, but for those who understand the differences and want to understand their system, documentation is key.

Miami has roads. Miami has cars. However, I don't know my way around Miami - I would need a tour guide. Someone to show me where to go and where not to go. We have roads, buildings and pavements, but cultures, landmarks, climate... You get the idea?

In my experience, getting 'community' support, I get treated like an immigrant - I am unwelcome, unclean, uninitiated to the clique, outside the established tribe, asking all these questions and having all these opinions - HOW DARE I?!? This is what drives people away, the very LACK of anything resembling an actual community of people. Not just a group of users who are all registered on the same web site, but a real, actual community of people.

Do you ever RTFM?

I am so deeply convinced of the requirement for making proper, complete documentation available as a basic requirement of producing software to be used by the masses that I am not going to post any more on this. My views are above, if you disagree, if you think there is enough or too much documentation (across the gamut of OSS) I would ask yourself: "How is less understanding making things better?"

Just like a car manufacturer who concentrates on the exhaust system and neglects the seats and bodywork: overall, it's a s**t car that nobody else is going to want to drive.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by RollyShed »

OK, depends who you are talking about. I'm talking about users of computers who have used Windows and are now using Linux Mint to do the same jobs. I'm most definitely not talking about programmers.

I'm talking about observations of about a dozen users. Those who need help need the same help whether Windows or Mint. Note, "same".

Yes, there are going to be computer users who will have problems with Mint but they will also have the same problems with Windows. Note the word "same".
I am a big believer that software is 80% documentation, 20% code.
Do you mean modifying it or using it?
Whilst some equate learning Linux anew to simply learning the words of a new language,
I'm talking about using programmes that run on everything and Linux has nothing to do with any of the problems. If running LibreOffice, Firefox, VLC, Audacity, Chrome, etc. etc. what has Linux got to do with it? I'm talking users, not programmers. Computer users.
For example, if I know that a single click in the Windows environment does what I want, yet a separate program, several clicks and a keypress will do the same in Linux,
I asked for and you still haven't said what actions need more clicks in Linux than Windows.
Anyway, you know what the Dirag's say about this sort of thing
Who are they? Certainly a Google search turns up nothing relevant. As far as I can see their origin is Turkey.

Cars, fuel types? How many, what percentage, don't use petrol? As for where the fuel cap is, a simple "walk-round" should sort that out. As for all the differences you note, none of those require a manual. You get in the car and drive it. Admittedly if you want to programme the instrumentation such as GPS and other fiddles, yes a manual but I'm talking about simply driving it.

RTFM? No, they give support for Office 365 and we're talking LibreOffice here and though they are just in town, half an hour away, I've never contacted them.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by vanvan67 »

I am a NOOB to Linux, but not to computers. Started in 1978 with a TRS-80, moved to PC and Mac in the 80's and just started with Linux a few months ago. I moved to Linux when MS discontinued support for Win 7 because I am unwilling to go to Win 10 and give MS access to information on everything I do on the computer.

But, I still run a Win 7 machine because I cannot get some things to work in Linux. I tried VirtualBox, but cannot get it to work with an extra NTFS hard drive. All the forum information on how to access the drive do NOT work on my system. When I look at the information provided, I get different ways to achieve my goal, but none of them work.

Many people leave Linux because of problems like mine, where there is no solution.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by JoeFootball »

vanvan67 wrote: All the forum information on how to access the drive do NOT work on my system. When I look at the information provided, I get different ways to achieve my goal, but none of them work.
Post your own issue, specifically in the Virtualization forum. Perhaps someone could give advice on your problem.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ThrashZone2 »

Hi,
To complicated for should be easy stuff in windows that is mainly why people loose interest in any linux spawn.
Then they laugh when people say linux is so safe lol well you can use a standard windows user account and enter your password for everything and still get more done than on linux this is why many sudo give up.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by t42 »

Some people in this and other topics frequently complain about the lack of the documentation and step by step guides. I understand it can be frustrating when you donated hundreds of your dollars or euros to some Linux team and still can't get off the ground in the documentation department. Anyway there is better option - any IBM UNIX operating system possesses volumes of this staff (small example Setting up a cluster for an air gap environment ) with price range starting from 1000 USD/month. On the other side I don't remember any comprehensive useful Windows documentation supplied; it comes to mind only some basic manuals available with Compaq systems before years 2000.
-=t42=-
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rambo919 »

t42 wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:41 pm
Some people in this and other topics frequently complain about the lack of the documentation and step by step guides. I understand it can be frustrating when you donated hundreds of your dollars or euros to some Linux team and still can't get off the ground in the documentation department. Anyway there is better option - any IBM UNIX operating system possesses volumes of this staff (small example Setting up a cluster for an air gap environment ) with price range starting from 1000 USD/month. On the other side I don't remember any comprehensive useful Windows documentation supplied; it comes to mind only some basic manuals available with Compaq systems before years 2000.
The difference is there are many GUI third party windows apps that randomly pop up to fill the gaps. Lots of automation happens which means you do not need to read any documentation after a while and can operate on autopilot.

For linux though it gets problematic because there is so many things you can put in so many text files and so many services that you have to restart manually...... how can most people not get lost in the weeds? Even the step by step guides get randomly outdated and you can end up bricking a system following old guides especially in my own experience dealing with Samba, grub or systemd. I still cannot figure out how to best manually tune nvidia graphics settings with all the changes in the last few years.

Systemd might be a great thing for many people but it has WAY too many seperate config files that seem to point to one another in obscure ways.

And then there is the experience I had trying to compile gnucash manually using the recommended path..... which creates a messy opt folder /home. I immediately deleted this abomination and was forced to install the flatpak which also is messy and WAY too big but at least the system seems capable of sorting itself better.

The OCD in me simply cannot stand the messy way linux compulsively sprawls programs across the entirety of the system.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by jpcy »

I should clarify that I am talking from a more general view-point, without getting into specific software titles, presuming knowledge of someone you have no idea about is naive and causes problems.

Tourists use a map, new car owners read the manual, new parents get advice and guidance - We try to do the best we can. When we don't know, we learn. While each person learns a different way, throwing everybody in at the deep end will cause some cases of drowning. There is simply no need for this. It is an example of how blinkered a 'programmer' can be when providing software to the vast world outside their own thoughts, or dev team.

I have yet to meet a developer who WANTS to get it right for other people, not just themselves. They mostly seem obsessed with closing calls no matter what, they seldom listen to their users expressions of frustration. Fewer still actively talk with their software's users!
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
OK, depends who you are talking about. I'm talking about users of computers who have used Windows and are now using Linux Mint to do the same jobs. I'm most definitely not talking about programmers.

I'm talking about observations of about a dozen users. Those who need help need the same help whether Windows or Mint. Note, "same".
I am talking about a situation whereby users find themselves in a situation wherein the developers actively seek to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the software they chose to bring into the world. It's like having your cake and eating it.
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
Yes, there are going to be computer users who will have problems with Mint but they will also have the same problems with Windows. Note the word "same".
I can understand that copying physical movements (monkey-see, monkey-do) is obviously going to work when the software is cross-platform and the interface maintains it's consistency between platforms. However, I mean going between MS or Oracle software and OSS Linux software, where the user has learned specific actions and understand how they relate to what happens to their document, etc. The proprietary software usually has more, and better produced, documentation. It's just hard to get a complete product from kids who just code whenever they feel like it. IMHO, there needs to be a balance, a sense of ownership and responsibility, which GNU actively tries to wash it's hands of:
[...]
NO WARRANTY

9. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY
FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN
OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES
PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED
OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE
PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING,
REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

10. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES,
INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING
OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.
[...]
So, this gives some coders a license to NOT do a good job. in fact, some hide behind this whenever someone has a complaint - They just say that it wasn't written for anything in particular - I fail to see the point in labouring to produce code which has no warranty for any particular use, except for, maybe, being self-congratulatory or intellectual masturbation?
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
I am a big believer that software is 80% documentation, 20% code.
Do you mean modifying it or using it?
Neither. I mean in the production of it.

20% of the output should be executable code/script and the other 80% should be instructions, documentation and explanationitory details on the code, how to use it, how it works and what it actually does. Think of the documentation as the other half of the coding - Coding the human. once you've written the code for the computer to run, then you need to write the 'code' for the human so they can use the software to it's full potential - the documentation. Most coders think that the code ends at the computer. That's just naive.
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
Whilst some equate learning Linux anew to simply learning the words of a new language,
I'm talking about using programmes that run on everything and Linux has nothing to do with any of the problems. If running LibreOffice, Firefox, VLC, Audacity, Chrome, etc. etc. what has Linux got to do with it? I'm talking users, not programmers. Computer users.
Again, very easy with cross-platform software.
(Please refer to the 'I can understand that copying physical movements[...]' comment, above.)
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
For example, if I know that a single click in the Windows environment does what I want, yet a separate program, several clicks and a keypress will do the same in Linux,
I asked for and you still haven't said what actions need more clicks in Linux than Windows.
To be honest, I can't currently think of anything off of the top of my head. I would need to install Windows 10 (eurgh) as it's been a while since I used Win7 as my daily driver. I will admit that I seem to have to stop and think more in Linux than Windows. However, I have noticed that since I stopped using Windows altogether (I moved to Linux around 5 years ago, now), Windows 10 now seems to have a lot of these organisational/presentation idiosyncrasies.

Just to illustrate the point in general: Recently, I installed Windows 10 on my son's gaming rig and found I could install Dolby Atmos (A limited trial with option to purchase from the Windows store) with a single click from the volume control, yet I had to go into 'Remove Program' to uninstall it! There was no uninstall' option at the same place there was an 'install' option (not that it was shown to be an install option, it just said '...Dolby Atmos..'. I will post a Linux-specific example for you when I get chance.
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
Anyway, you know what the Dirag's say about this sort of thing
Who are they? Certainly a Google search turns up nothing relevant. As far as I can see their origin is Turkey.
I actually made up that word as a way to illustrate the fact that I was presuming knowledge of you. Without detailed documentation, you are left at the mercy of Google's search algorithm. You didn't know that I was presuming knowledge of you, nor that it was false. I should have written full details of the word and it's context down for you to learn from, then you wouldn't have to rely on a general Internet search engine for specific, contextual answers.
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am
Cars, fuel types? How many, what percentage, don't use petrol? As for where the fuel cap is, a simple "walk-round" should sort that out. As for all the differences you note, none of those require a manual. You get in the car and drive it. Admittedly if you want to programme the instrumentation such as GPS and other fiddles, yes a manual but I'm talking about simply driving it.
To continue with this (inadequate) syllogism, that presumes that they know their way around this miraculous machine... Too many assumptions about the car and the driver are being made by you. This is not necessary and leaves pitfalls and creates problems and misunderstandings. When you are not aware of the different forms and shapes cars can take, seeing one that's not the one you have been driving the last few years, you're going to grind gears, find it hard to park without pranging something. Etc...
RollyShed wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:23 am

RTFM? No, they give support for Office 365 and we're talking LibreOffice here and though they are just in town, half an hour away, I've never contacted them.
It doesn't matter what office suite it is. Take, for example, a productivity suite you have never used before. Like Google Docs? Have yet to find a word processor that handles images and their placement properly without flinging my text around like a spoilt brat having a tantrum lol MSO was awful for that. The number of calls I used to get along the lines of 'I just moved a picture a bit and now a full page of text has disappeared!" It must be better, now, though... I hope.

If someone said they could build me a new driveway for free, it's an amazing driveway with all the bells & whistles, but they said that the surface may not last long, that the foundation may well sink and need replacing in a year's time or that my car may slowly sink into the tarmac, but I can't blame them for doing it wrong - I would at least ask "Are you serious, kid?"

Maybe, if I had a spare house and I wasn't using the driveway, I would let them experiment on it, but not a working driveway. Not the only driveway I have and not if it is going to make things more difficult in future. Don't forget that there is no brochure - You don't know what to expect or if it is specced for your car's weight. Because there is no documentation about the offering, you can't make an informed decision about it's suitability.

Yes, the software is free, but at what expense?

Also, I am not even going to mention the illustrious members of "Team Awkward" who constantly try to think of new paradigms and ways to confuse people - Those who turn user interfaces into games or puzzles.


tl;dr: "Why do new people give up on Linux?" - Insufficient or inaccessible knowledge, IMHO.

(Sorry for any spelling mistakes I was typing as fast as I was thinking :/)
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