Why do new people give up on Linux?

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FedoraRefugee
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

LinuxRetard wrote: You asked, "Why do new people give up on Linux?" I gave my answer. Does it really need a reply back? Maybe this is the problem and exactly what I am talking about?

In regards to "dumpster diving" for my computer, if I bought the latest and greatest it still would not work. I always love the "Linux is not for everyone" line. When you all are trying to convert people to your movement you should be telling them this, as well as what hardware will work. If the problems have been around for 18 years, I guess I will check back in another 15 or 20 years to see if there has been any progress.
I did not ask! :wink: Personally, I really do not care why some people give up on Linux. It is THEIR business!

As far as needing a reply back, I always thought that was what a forum was; a place to discuss ideas? Maybe, if you would swallow some of that bile and actually read what I wrote some things might start making sense. In any case, there are a great many people who try Linux and come into the forums wanting people to tell them what they want to hear. Some people just cannot accept that the ideas they have are no longer relative. Linux uses a root system, always has, and despite the Ubuntu lockout and preference to sudo, the root system will probably always exist. Likewise, there is no way to force hardware manufacturers to recognize Linux. They either do or they do not. Linux users vote with their wallets.

If you buy the latest and greatest chances are pretty good that it will just work! The reality if Linux developers have done nothing short of the miraculous when you figure how many drivers the kernel includes and how many systems Linux does "just work" on.

Linux is NOT for everyone, I do not know why you have a problem with this but it still holds true. But then you stupidly assume that we are all trying to convert everyone to our "movement." confused? :?: "Hey bud, Linux is not for everyone but we need YOU!" Look, there are people who are trying for the Linux world domination thing...Whatever...Most of us Linux users are fairly normal people. If it does not work for you then great! You at least tried. It is what it is. There is nothing wrong with Windows. Linux is not for everyone. Keep checking back, sooner or later you may encounter a Linux distro you can live with. I hope you do. But just remember that many people have been using Linux just fine for decades now. They do not think Linux needs to change. They would suggest that if you want to use Linux it is YOU that should change. :)
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shane
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by shane »

LinuxRetard wrote:There's the attitude again! Poor guy gives his answer and gets told he has no business using Linux.
I am sure FedoraRefugee did not say that with overbearing attitude... He even used smileys :P He certainly did not say Jix shouldn't use Linux. Also, this is an open forum and I am sure he has the right to reply to your post. If you reread his posts as his opinion and not as an authoritarian rant, you will see he makes some valid points.

No OS is perfect... it's not all 'dancing lollipops' on this side either :)
FedoraRefugee
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Thank you Shane. Actually, I did get a bit short with Jix and I apologize to him for that. Of course I did not mean to say that he could not use Linux for any reason, I only meant that he should learn why things are like they are. Instead of fighting it, embrace it and come to love it for what it is. It really is the better way, but you need to understand why.

I just get so sick of people wanting to change Linux into the very thing most of them are running from! There are many legitimate complaints and many ways in which Linux can be improved. The thing that most gets me is, this is the one OS in the world where ALL the people doing the complaining can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Why not learn some basics and create your own spin, or even distro? The tools are out there, it really does not take any exceptional knowledge, just the time and patience to learn what you need to know. In fact, if most of these folks would take the time to do this they might actually come to realize that the very things they were complaining about, that motivated them to do this in the first place, were actually the right and best way to do things after all. At the least they may come to understand why things are like they are.

If you have a better idea then DO IT! THAT is what makes Linux great!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deadguy »

LinuxRetard wrote: You asked, "Why do new people give up on Linux?" I gave my answer. Does it really need a reply back? Maybe this is the problem and exactly what I am talking about?

In regards to "dumpster diving" for my computer, if I bought the latest and greatest it still would not work. I always love the "Linux is not for everyone" line. When you all are trying to convert people to your movement you should be telling them this, as well as what hardware will work. If the problems have been around for 18 years, I guess I will check back in another 15 or 20 years to see if there has been any progress.
Linux is a movement??
I always thought it was a kernel that when paired with GNU gives me a totally configurable and stable operating system. :oops:
Mallette
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Mallette »

Alrighty, I took a bunch of blows here and I'll respond. First, forget the Windows war. Sorry I mentioned it and should have known it would cause issues with the actual message.

I'll answer a question that was posed: "Or do you dislike that a user cannot perform administrative tasks, like deleting all partitions with a single command or a single mouse click?"

Yep, I think I deserve that responsibility if I want it. I started programming with an Altair, 8 switches, and an register button. I've made some really dumb mistakes from which I learned. I don't have a problem with programmers builiding in various security and protection levels...as long as there is an option to TURN THEM ALL OFF!

I do not need nor want protection. I want freedom to fail. I do not want "Delete">"Are your SURE?">"OK, but I am not really deleteing, because you probably aren't smart enough to make that decision. Moving to recycle bin.">Do you want to move this to the recycle bin?" etc.

Open source programmers have no liability and should not assume any. You build a free product and should concentrate on building a great free product that doesn't look and work like a repackage of the rest.

If you look at my posts and questions here, you'll find far more praise of the efforts of the great people in Linux and the fine progress being made than criticism. That stands. This community is awesome and I think the future holds nothing but good things for it. It reminds me of the early days when everyone worked together towards progress.

Regards,
Dave
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

But Dave why do you look at it like it is an insult to your intelligence? There has been more than a few times I have been thankful for the recycle bin instead of permanent delete! You can easily remove anything you like, just su to root then rm -rf /anything. It is not like you are prevented from anything, you just have a sanity check in place. But the thing with the root account is it not only protects you from yourself but from everyone else. Personally, I WANT to have to type in a strong password before ANYTHING can mess with my system. This gives ME full control, I know what is happening. This applies not so much to Linux as it does to Windows where Bill or Steve like to talk to my computer when I sleep. I give final authority (I think :roll: ) before they can install anything.

Besides, you can still log in as root. As far as I know anyway, I have not done that in years. But if you know you will have a long session needing root permissions then go for it that is why it has always been available. Instead of looking at it like an insult why not see that it is a powerful tool to be used. If you are going to crawl under the car you "should" be safe enough just leaving the car on the jack. But hey, if you own jackstands... :wink:

edit: Oh, I was going to mention; why is it that posts like yours ALWAYS has to highlight the vast experience the poster has? :roll: My first computer was a Vic20 and I soon got a trash 80 after that. What does that prove? BTW, remember the orange button on the trash 80's? You would watch your friend spend 2 hours typing in a program and then just walk by and... <click>... Lol! What a stupid idea that was! But I reckon that if you went to put a plate or something over that switch someone would have had their intelligence insulted! :lol: Just sayin'...
Mallette
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Mallette »

Nice kick about the experience thing, FR, and deserved I suppose. I think it's just human to want your audience to know you didn't start yesterday. However, such statements are meaningless without context and therefore should be avoided.

I long since lost any sense of "pride" in my knowledge of computer science. Given that I work with "you know what" on a daily basis and have made my living with these machines since...well, never mind...you might think I'd be somewhat arrogant. Far from it. Like those who study Lao Tzu, I've realized that no one truly understands "you know what" anymore and most issues get resolved by Google searchs for similar issues or blind luck and you never know what the real cause was.

Well, there I go about "you know what" again. I will turn the subject by saying that with the Linux community that is far less often the case. One can usually find an actual cause and effect. I hope that remains the case.

But I remain adamant about security and protection that cannot be lifted by the user at will. Recycle bin? It was the first thing I got rid of when it first appeared in about 1995 and have never had a problem. When I hit the "delete" button I want that file turned into a disorganized magnetic field (yes, I am aware I am simply removing the directory entry). Have I made a few mistakes? Sure. Do I blame the system. No. Actually, I've never deleted anything important I wasn't able to recover "under the hood."

In any event, the current society has moved away from personal responsibility and replaced it with groupthink. I am NOT criticising Linux or the community here, so please don't flame me in that regard. I am just saying that old folks like me come from a different time when we were expected to assume a gun is loaded, and that certain drugs could kill you if misused, and that the "Delete" button really meant it and Big Brother won't always be there to protect you from yourself.

There are aspects of those times I miss.

Now, let me end again by saying "Great job!" Just because I have my differences doesn't mean I am not appreciative.

When all is said and done, there is no good reason for the "average person" to abandon Linux that is not technical. If many are coming and leaving now, you should take that as a good sign. Why? Because people like me are now telling older users, users without a lot of money, and others in similar situations that they should give Mint a try. There is nothing 95% of users need to do that Mint isn't ready for. It comes better equipped than any other OS. To equip a commercial OS with all the software that comes with Mint would cost hundreds of dollars and most users wouldn't see a bit of difference. A 5 year old machine with Linux on it will run circles around a top of the line PC with any of the commercial OS on it.

If they leave it's because their wireless or soundcard failed to mount, or the graphics didn't work. Of course, there is help available, but most folks don't know that and couldn't follow a bunch of simple terminal commands if they had to. FUrther, they don't want to. They just want to get on line and get to Facebook.

The good news is that you guys are SO close to them not having to do that.

So there.
Dave
FedoraRefugee
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Mallette wrote: In any event, the current society has moved away from personal responsibility and replaced it with groupthink. I am NOT criticising Linux or the community here, so please don't flame me in that regard. I am just saying that old folks like me come from a different time when we were expected to assume a gun is loaded, and that certain drugs could kill you if misused, and that the "Delete" button really meant it and Big Brother won't always be there to protect you from yourself.

There are aspects of those times I miss.
This remark hits very close to home in regards to what is happening all around us. Yes, I agree. :D

The last thing we need is a nanny anything.

However...Everything is not radically on one side or the other. Unloaded guns are worthless, but that is why they put a safety on them. Likewise certain drugs can kill and that is why we need doctors prescriptions to legally buy them. This is just the way life is.

Anyway, I can see your side, believe me, I do. That is what attracted me to Linux in the first place in fact. I do not feel limited, held back, or restricted. It simply does not bother me that there are still rules to play by.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Huh? »

to LinuxRetard...

I too gave up on Linux last year after fooling around with it. But here I am again with it loaded. Am I stupid, I ask myself? I felt almost the same way...wanting to give up for two reasons. Games and lack of compatibility with, well, everything. I absolutely LOVE the idea of Linux and open source software. The more I use it, the more I like it. I confess, I don't want to type command line crap to get stuff to work but it's got awesome potential.

Hang in there. Keep your dual boot. For the crap you figure out, make a tutorial to help some other poor noob's life easier. It's easy to underestimate the value of "noobs". YOU know what new people need to know. You are the front line in letting the Linux gods (who've been doing this for aeons) know what needs to be made easier. For them, it's hard to realize how clueless noobs can really be. What you have to contribute will help someone like yourself some day.
Last edited by Huh? on Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DrHu
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DrHu »

Mallette wrote:But I remain adamant about security and protection that cannot be lifted by the user at will. Recycle bin? It was the first thing I got rid of when it first appeared in about 1995 and have never had a problem. When I hit the "delete" button I want that file turned into a disorganized magnetic field

In that case you might have loved the original UNIX method of using a computer in a network (it is sorta like Xp@Home style), everyone is trusted, everyone is an administrator (root)
http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/arvind/cs4 ... ix-sec.pdf

Some of it can be under user control, you don't have to be asked if you are sure you want to delete, you under nautilus preferences (Linux Mint 7, main edition, Gnome desktop)
Because of how most OS delete files: change directory bit (dos, windows, Linux, Apple Os9, OS-X), the extra step of shredding the file is up to the user
  • Both to know about and to decide if it is necessary..
I actually think Linux has proven, with its more complete separation of root and user to be the simpler, and better method to manage security in the OS
  • Rather than the dos-->windows methods, which have since Vista adopted a sort of admin role model, to manage the multiple access routes in their security (UAC), it is a little improved, at least as far OS-->user messaging goes: from Vista-->win7
http://www.jkg.in/87-how-to-disable-win ... irmations/
Mallette
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Mallette »

Doc, my point is that almost certainly in the vast majority of the cases the "user" and the "administrator" are one and the same. Separateing them makes no sense. I've not recommended Mint to a soul that has an "administrator." If you want to ask up front on an install about that, I'd say it's a good idea. What I am suggesting is let the user make the choice.

Make sense? If you are deploying Mint in a office environment, it certainly makes sense to define roles.

My bet is that it's the exception rather than the rule at the moment.

Dave
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by BrianD »

if you buy a car, whether for individual use or as part of a corporately-maintained fleet, you typically don't need (but are not prevented from obtaining and utilizing) a complete engine diagnostics analyzer, a hydraulic lift, and a fully-stocked toolchest. ...and, one might argue, any of these things in untrained hands will likely do more harm than good to the vehicle.
need I say more??
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by DrHu »

Mallette wrote:Doc, my point is that almost certainly in the vast majority of the cases the "user" and the "administrator" are one and the same. Separateing them makes no sense. I've not recommended Mint to a soul that has an "administrator."
Make sense? If you are deploying Mint in a office environment, it certainly makes sense to define roles. My bet is that it's the exception rather than the rule at the moment.
Dave
..My bet is that it's the exception rather than the rule at the moment
I think you are simply wrong with that analogy
  • I don't believe for a second that everyone using winXP decided that the winXP@Home was the best version they could use; especially if they had multiple users logging in and it was their computer.
Anyone who used winXP pro, instead of winXP@Home knows about administrator verses limited user accounts
-same with Vista

UAC (User Account Control)
  • Vista added UAC methodsodology to the mix
    Win7 simply expanded that UAC
    --to make it more user friendly (hide the real effects), avoiding extra alerts to the user
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by AndrewH »

Rather than complain that Mint doesn't let everyone log in with root privileges, wouldn't it be better to simply enable root privileges on your machine?

As I understand it, half the problem with security in Windows is that everything is done with administrator privileges.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

AndrewH wrote:Rather than complain that Mint doesn't let everyone log in with root privileges, wouldn't it be better to simply enable root privileges on your machine?

As I understand it, half the problem with security in Windows is that everything is done with administrator privileges.
Bingo! :D

Root privileges are already enabled. I am not sure with Mint 8 whether the main user password is still also the root password but it is easy to find out. Just try to su to root. The very first thing I do with Mint is create a very strong root password. As everything in Mint can be done with sudo by default I very seldom use su though. On my children's computers I do edit the sudoers file to give more fine-grained permissions.

Instead of people just dumbly logging in as root all the time it is far better to just learn a few things so they can use Linux correctly. It is an old argument, and it is the particular bee in my bonnet. At the end of the day it is up to each user how they want to use their computer. But I really do not see any advantage to not doing things the right way. More than half of Window's security issues was because of this very argument. In fact, I would say over 90%. I am still not comfortable with Windows 7 not asking for an administrator password. I know I can set this up but I run my install default and so far have not had any issues. But old habits die hard.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by adrian_badertscher »

hi peoples,

the root password isn't set after installation. so you can set it easy with the following command: ">sudo passwd" and then you will be asked for a root password.

it isn't only for newbees, that you shouldn't run in root mode - it is also because if a software has an exploid it isn't as dangerous as if you use this software with root privileges.

so, use your system with normal user rights, you don't need something else!

alright? ok.

greet's
Adrian Badertscher
Robin

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Robin »

I haven't had any deal-breaking trouble, just experimenting and learning as I go. It hasn't always been as simple as I'm used to, but omygosh, it's still pretty simple! Even the command line stuff is not hard, it's just unfamiliar to people coming from Windows or some OS where you never touch the CLI. I never heard the old rebuke that I had anticipated when I first started: "Go back to Windows, kid. You're not ready for Linux yet!" Never heard that. And I was looking for it!

I only got "attitude" from a Windows fan who was all shocked and dismayed because I ditched Windows for Linux Mint. "Why would you do something so extreme and radical!?" he asked. That should have been my first hint that the conversation might be less than matter-of-fact, lol.

I told him that "Windows rot" - that slow but certain and inevitable thing about Windows that makes it get slower and slower over time, despite the ceaseless vigil of updating, upgrading, scanning, registry cleaning, defragmenting and all that. His reply amazed me.

"Windows doesn't ever do that if it's configured properly," he said, a little too loudly.

"Um, wow, okay," I replied sheepishly. "So I guess the people who installed it brand new at the factory didn't configure it properly then. And the techs at the Geek Squad didn't get it right either when they re-installed Windows (which is the only cure for 'Windows rot'). They had my computer for four days, that's long enough to properly configure a fresh Windows installation isn't it? And what about the techs at your computer shop when it needed a fresh installation last year for the same thing? Omygoodness... properly configuring Windows must be a very rare and beautiful gift. But I'm darned if I could do it, since all those techno-geeky guys couldn't!"

"But I got my Linux Mint installed in 30 minutes and it works perfectly! Y'wanna see?"

Oh, that made him a little angrier. But I laughed out loud at his reply (then I ran for cover):

"Stick with Linux Mint then, kid. You're obviously not ready for Windows yet!"

I couldn't help giggling all the way home.

-Robin
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by chris0101 »

I think that it safe to say that many, many people will continue to give up on Linux for the indefinite future.
FedoraRefugee
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

chris0101 wrote:I think that it safe to say that many, many people will continue to give up on Linux for the indefinite future.
We can only hope! :D
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by owend »

FedoraRefugee: your last post reads as though you're hoping that many more people will give up on Linux: I presume that's a mis-speak! You don't come across as anti-Linux! :)
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