Why do new people give up on Linux?

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allypink
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by allypink »

mastablasta wrote:
allypink wrote:I don't think many linux folks care if people come over from MS or if MS remains the dominant force.
that's why with this attitude Ubuntu bug #1 will never be solved.


You just don't get it........ most of us don't care if people still want to stuff around with MS. Just like they don't care about who uses linux. Market share phooie! Linux is not in general terms a marketable product and probably never will be. Why? 'Cause people can't make the millions (billions) out of it that MS makes.
IMHO...... :wink:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by tdockery97 »

allypink wrote:Market share phooie! Linux is not in general terms a marketable product and probably never will be. Why? 'Cause people can't make the millions (billions) out of it that MS makes.
IMHO...... :wink:
Very true. You will see very few major software/game publishers porting to Linux EVER. The reason being that hardcore Linux users automatically seek open source alternatives to commercial products. Linux is as much about philosophy as it is about the OS.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

rcwilson wrote:Sorry I have not even read all the stuff, but.
I have played with it on and off, and about to try again.

As far as im concerned its the file manager. Is it now fixed?
File manager needs to be easy to use with a right click menu of choices, yes sorry, just like power desk for windows.

That is the reason I always walked away, storage is my thing, have lots left and lots used. Looking after and moving, finding is the issue. This stuff needs to be easy to do and easily recognized.

Well anyway, other than that issue I always liked the open software. Its always been much more stable then windows for me anyway.

With windows I use a extensive backup and restore system stored on a file server with dvd backup. That works, however with IE running in the core and software can be installed from a web page even if the IE exe is not running, problems are frequent with my other users, and sometimes some fancy keyboard work from me when im on the bad sites.
If control over file storage is what you need then why are you not looking at a command line interface? GUIs are inefficient for heavy file management.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by rcwilson »

randomizer wrote:
rcwilson wrote:Sorry I have not even read all the stuff, but.
I have played with it on and off, and about to try again.

As far as im concerned its the file manager. Is it now fixed?
File manager needs to be easy to use with a right click menu of choices, yes sorry, just like power desk for windows.

That is the reason I always walked away, storage is my thing, have lots left and lots used. Looking after and moving, finding is the issue. This stuff needs to be easy to do and easily recognized.

Well anyway, other than that issue I always liked the open software. Its always been much more stable then windows for me anyway.

With windows I use a extensive backup and restore system stored on a file server with dvd backup. That works, however with IE running in the core and software can be installed from a web page even if the IE exe is not running, problems are frequent with my other users, and sometimes some fancy keyboard work from me when im on the bad sites.
If control over file storage is what you need then why are you not looking at a command line interface? GUIs are inefficient for heavy file management.
Time. I come in on a break from my shops and want to set up a job. Command line sort of says stay there and work. I cant, need to make a coffie and get back out side. Job que is more like it.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by harpomarx »

OP:
all the way through the original post you confuse two things, linux and its graphical usr interfaces.
Microsoft Windows is a GUI for the Microsoft DOS operating system
Gnome, KDE, etc are GUI's for the Linux DOS operating system.
Inherently linux is more stable than Windows but kde or gnome may not be as stable as windows.
You make the mistake many people do, of confusing the graphical interface with the underlying operating system.
Although in the case of Microsoft operating systems I believe it would be hard to remove the gui components and run
entirely on a command line. Dont confuse KDE or Gnome with Linux they are merely user iterfaces
I would agree that Windows is far more stable than KDE, I am not sure how stable compared to gnome.
I believe linux is far more stable without any graphical components
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eiver
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by eiver »

The comparison you made (the mention of DOS) is rather inaccurate, but I understand what you mean. Separating GUI from the OS is incorrect in my opinion. If GUI is not part of an OS, then why do you say CLI is? Its just another interface. And what do we get if we get rid of the interface (and all applications of course)? - we get the kernel. So you claim that the OS = the kernel. Well its just a silly discussion about word definitions, but majority of people do not think like that. They treat the whole software package as a black box, without even knowing what modules is it composed of. I am sure that some people will treat the browser or the office suite as a part of the OS (an idea not without sense if we look at past difficulties with completely removing IE from Windows :P).

The conclusion is: If someone hates a certain program, they will quite often blame the OS as whole. Saying that only the program sucks, but the kernel works great will not convince them to stay.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by harpomarx »

eiver wrote:The comparison you made (the mention of DOS) is rather inaccurate, but I understand what you mean. Separating GUI from the OS is incorrect in my opinion. If GUI is not part of an OS, then why do you say CLI is? Its just another interface. And what do we get if we get rid of the interface (and all applications of course)? - we get the kernel. So you claim that the OS = the kernel. Well its just a silly discussion about word definitions,
wrong !!!!! its not just a semantic discussion - originally befor you had windows 2000 you had a system on windows where you could choose command line only or to boot into the graphical interface. unix like systems were infinitely more stable. Also bear this in mind. Neither the developers of KDE nor the developers of gnome would claim their gui to represent linux as a whole, their interfaces merely facillitate the easy use of the linux DOS - rememeber DOS means "disk operating system" it did not mean - video/multimedia/rapidshare operating system - these things ghave been possible through the graphical interfaces of the WWW. also bear in mind you are talking to someone here that operated IBM 370/158's back in the 1970's and has followed every development of both unix and IBM-like DOS since then. Microsoft DOS wasnt that far removed from IBM DOS. Back then there were no windows GUIS, only after windows 2000 was such integration from the command line to the GUI possibe. lets measure red hat 5 to windows 98 - a good comparison - running on the same machines with no graphical interfaces both systems were quite good but linux was more stable, more secure, and more featured its where we get the idea today that linux is still all those things - and it is- what is not more stable is KDE especially but gnome also
but majority of people do not think like that. They treat the whole software package as a black box, without even knowing what modules is it composed of. I am sure that some people will treat the browser or the office suite as a part of the OS (an idea not without sense if we look at past difficulties with completely removing IE from Windows :P).
people can think what they like - people think that free will is possible but others dont - the fact is the truth is rarely what the majority think but what the minority know
The conclusion is: If someone hates a certain program, they will quite often blame the OS as whole. Saying that only the program sucks, but the kernel works great will not convince them to stay.
then educating people is the best option
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eiver
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by eiver »

I always thing that education is a good idea, but in the mean time you will have to educate people using Windows, because thats what is the most popular. Besides many people might not be willing to learn how the system works. In the Wright brothers era people needed to have a very deep understanding of aerodynamics and plane construction to actually fly, hence very few had the possibility to get airborne. Today everyone can simply buy an airline ticket without even knowing how an airplane works. Its the same with computers. People do not see drivers, they do not see the kernel - they see what is on the screen and if it doesn't work (whatever the reason) they try something else that works. I am really happy that Mint dev team seem to understand that pretty well and we get ever increasing popularity of Mint as the result.
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monkeyboy
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by monkeyboy »

Most people bail on Linux because they lack enough motivation to make it work. Sufficiently motivated people can overcome the difficulties involved in learning a new OS be it simple or involved. On the other hand without enough motivation even the smallest bump will cause folks to bolt.
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

I think the best definition of the "Linux OS" is the kernel and GNU toolchain and that's it. Without these two components you don't really have a workable system. Everything on top of that is relatively interchangeable. At its heart Linux is a CLI-driven operating system. A DE is simply extra software added on top to provide a secondary UI to one that is already there.

Windows on the other hand, at least recent editions (and any using the NT kernel) can't really be called a CLI-driven OS. Even the most basic edition, Server Core, is a command prompt on top of a desktop. The GUI is integrated so deeply that it is not interchangeable. You can stick a different skin on it but getting rid of it is not going to be a trivial task. With Linux it is trivial.

Also Windows is no longer a front-end to DOS. No consumer version of Windows has been DOS-based since 2000/XP, and Windows NT was never DOS-based.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by GhostThorn »

Because the installer doesn't install inxi, which people on this forum use to troubleshoot grouchy wireless.
Well really that's just a reason to give up on Mint 9 Fluxbox. I'm trying to hang on though.

I made the switch to Linux, not from Windows, but from DOS in the mid-90's when someone gave me a copy of Linux. Somehow I've never found the spare cash to buy Windows. My transition from DOS was fairly natural once I learned new names for familiar actions (ls, man, etc etc).

But far too often I try a distro of Linux and give up on it very quickly. Rarely the culprit is an ugly desktop or something counterintuitive/uncomfortable about the interface (in particular, I really like things to be easy to find. REALLY easy to find. Like icons sitting on the desktop easy to find. I can always hide clutter later). Most often the culprit is either (a) I can't access something or (b) something in the installation process needs pampering in order to work.

A few clear examples:

- The Ubuntu 5.something for which I couldn't figure out the root password
- Install CD's which use the internet during the initial installation (I haven't seen these in a while)
- The installation which couldn't read my old filesystem (I've forgotten which distro committed this grievous sin)
- Several installations which required me to go on a puzzle solving adventure to use my legacy modem. Not everyone has broadband access, folks.
- And the pearl of this tale is final death knell for the free copy of Windblows I ran on my laptop for a couple years: first it borked up the driver for my wifi card somehow, then it decided that my modem driver was a virus. It's now running Mint.

I still don't understand the Windows registry at all. And Windows' various commandline interfaces feel about as safe as an atom bomb when I venture into them. I'm always scared I might break something in there. Linux' command language is rewardingly straightforward, flexible, tolerant - BUT I expect someone who grew up toe to toe with Windows' commandline would be pretty scared of learning another command language (and maybe breaking something). Or someone who can't understand what s/he sees over the shoulder of whomever fixes their broken Windows, might quite reasonably be petrified at the prospect of doing Linux' equivalent work theirself. It makes sense.

How do I think we can approach such users? Icons. On the desktop, with names that say what they do in the same clear language we're already using. For example, if Chestnut hadn't been labelled "Dialer" on the menu, I would probably have never tried it. ( Chestnut is a bad example anyway: in the current Mint 9 Fluxbox, Chestnut is positively worthless :( )
Last edited by GhostThorn on Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

It's amazing how quickly you get used to the Terminal commands. I find myself using "ls" on Windows a lot and then facepalming before using "dir" instead.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by GhostThorn »

AndrewH wrote: ...

2. Gaming. Sure, there are lots of games available for native Linux. However, I have yet to find one that doesn't look like it wasn't made 20 years ago. Then there's Wine... but it doesn't work that well (for me). Call me shallow, but if I'm using a modern computer with 4 processing cores, 4 Gigs RAM, et al, I'm not going to be happy running games that look like they belong on my phone, or on an old 80486. :lol:

I don't blame Linux for not being "a gaming platform". It's certainly capable of it, every bit as much as Windows (if not more so). It's largely the fault of the commercial software developers who traditionally don't develop for Linux.

I'm sticking with Mint, but I'm keeping Windows 7 on dual boot for gaming. Maybe someday I'll figure out the networking.
AndrewH hit on a real point above. I'm entirely happy with the same Debian Stable I've been running (with updates) for the last half decade at home; it performs the tasks that make up most of my usage, doesn't break, and (to me) is decently transparent. BUT here I am with this old laptop, eagerly installing Mint 9 Fluxbox (and oh do I dislike Fluxbox) because of the note in wine's appdb that Entropia Universe (a quirky Cry2 based mmo game) runs on wine 1.3.3 on Fluxbox on Mint 9. As a gamer, my spare time=energy=cash goes into making stupid quirky timesinks run, and if that required Windows, I would have waited and bought an edition I thought might work. I almost picked Windows 7 / Ubuntu dual boot the day before that appdb entry happened. I'm glad I didn't: Mint did a flawless, painless, quick install. Once my wireless works, I won't be on this forum much :mrgreen:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by JayKay3000 »

I would think because they don't have a clue about what software to use. I tried Ubuntu first and hardly used it because it took me an age to try out different software.

It's one of the reasons i'm glad I discovered mint pretty fast. The software reviews section is one of the best things for a noob. I discovered a lot of new applications by reading someones review and avoided a few for the same reason. For an ms product you can often go to the product website and find a review, but less so for linux so if you are used to using windows apps then it becomes a little confusing to switch over.

But that's just me, i've become reliant on reviews for things. Let someone else deal with potential problems.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

allypink wrote:
mastablasta wrote:
allypink wrote:I don't think many linux folks care if people come over from MS or if MS remains the dominant force.
that's why with this attitude Ubuntu bug #1 will never be solved.


You just don't get it........ most of us don't care if people still want to stuff around with MS. Just like they don't care about who uses linux. Market share phooie! Linux is not in general terms a marketable product and probably never will be.
yeah... great thinking... as in: here i made this programme works fantastic on my computer but only my computer want to try it? the other person tries it and doesn't work and then brands the programme as garbage. the creator then says i don't care what you think i still think it's greateast prorgamme ever.
Why? 'Cause people can't make the millions (billions) out of it that MS makes.
IMHO...... :wink:
that's not quite true. for example billions you talk about are only made by MS products and a few other selected companies. there is plenty of programmes that don't make such ammount, but make enough. there is also plenty opensource programmes for MS Windows. there are also plenty programmes that have their linux versions. just not games and some others...
they could just as well be making this money by using linux as long as enough people would use linux to make it a viable option. for example SAP has a linux version. if 99% companies would be using Linux they would still be selling their product to them and still make millions. so far i haven't seen any opensource alternative for it.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

tdockery97 wrote:
allypink wrote:Market share phooie! Linux is not in general terms a marketable product and probably never will be. Why? 'Cause people can't make the millions (billions) out of it that MS makes.
IMHO...... :wink:
Very true. You will see very few major software/game publishers porting to Linux EVER. The reason being that hardcore Linux users automatically seek open source alternatives to commercial products. Linux is as much about philosophy as it is about the OS.

you can seek but you can not find...

so far (as mentioned) there are no opensoruce alternatives to some production system, Photoshop, the many games that work on Windows but not on Linux... Even the OOo is a poor alternative to latest MS offices. Evolution also doens't perform as specified and i can't imagine it running in a large company instead of MS Exchange. though perhaps in the future...

If it was so easy to make these programmes they would have made opensource alternartives a long time ago. opensource doesn't exist only on linux.

i've been using opensource for a long time now. eventhough i was mostly a windows user.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by willie42 »

I believe that if the IT dept was any good at big corporations and businesses that they could make Linux work. I think its just the times we live in. People want to buy buy and buy more instead of making the things they have work. For the general pc user its all lack of patience. I have grown over time to be patient with everyone and everything in my life and to work with what I have. If people would put forth an ounce of effort there would be alot less people giving up on Linux and I think Bill Gates and Steve Jobs might not be recieveing the capital they are today. Just my opinion of course. :wink:
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by awpennington »

This is a wonderful question. I started my computer life with DOS, as most people that are in their 40's did. I had the first computers with floppy's only and no hard drives. I learned DOS, then moved to Tandy Deskmate (great little GUI), of course windows 3.0, 3.1, 95, 98, 98se, me (yes me and it drove me crazy), 2000 (still using on our diagnostic computer!!!), xp, vista, and 7. Started playing around with Macs in 1995, and my kids loved it. Then after non of my programs would work with the release of XP, I purchased RED Hat. I tried my best to work the system, but it was awful. So stayed with XP and bought all new programs. Played around with Ubuntu 8 and found that if surfing, and normal stuff it worked great. But when the kids had school work, nothing worked right. So had to uninstall and go back to XP. Using a data base to run my company and loosing it moving from DOS to 95, losing it again moving from 98se to XP, I decided Databases suck and now use a desktop file system and use a spreadsheet to invoice, inventory, ect... Having nothing but problems with Windows in 2007 I purchased two IMAC's and forced myself to learn OSX and have ran my business with them. Of course none and I mean none of the Automotive software will run in OSX. I refused to switch back, and have a lone old 2000 system running diagnostics. Being 3 years old it is time for me to buy new computers and sell the old ones. I price the new macs and can not justify the expense. So I go to IBM and end up buying a Lenovo IdeaCentre A300 for the "that will look cool on my desk!!!" purchase. Coming with windows 7 had me worried, but it is new and improved. So here goes the transition. Install office enterprise 2007, set everything up, takes 2 weeks, then guess what? It does not work right. Constant problems. Call Lenovo, "thats the way it is." Microsoft suggestion. Buy office 2010!!! So I switch back to my old mac. Bumming out wanting to use my new HD screen, HD video, and get my money's worth out of my new purchase. Then I remember Ubuntu 8. Hmm...So I research, research and research. Linux is secure. Linux is easy to install. Linux is faster. Linux is free!!! So I install several distro's to find the one I like. Every single new hardware piece on my computer worked from day one!!! No driver problems, no problems of any kind!!!! My favorite is Zorin for eye candy, but Mint is King for stability. I said all that to say this. I love the work that Mint has done. Ubuntu was just too boring for me, but a good system. But here is why people switch back to Mac and Windows. After years of trying to use Linux, I am shocked to still find that basic applications are not available or do not work correctly. THE OPERATING SYSTEM IS FANTASTIC!!! YOU GUYS HAVE DONE AN AMAZING JOB!!! KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!!! But software selection and quality is horrible. Why are so many programmers wasting their time building new distros? How many could we possible need? Why are they not making software that blows Apple and Windows away? Why do all the YouTube videos all discuss distros? I have work to do, not play with my operating system and uninstalling and installing, tweaking, and such. Maybe I need to do some videos on software, so business owners can get some work done for far less money. But what would I talk about? Distros, I guess. I would say that may be why they switch back. I sit here looking at this beautiful interface that Linux Mint has worked so hard to make. How beautifully fast and stable it is. Excellence screams from the start to finish, only wishing I had iweb to work on my awesome website, Address book that actually works, Drag and drop address to invoice, automatic birthday reminders from address book to calendar, automatic sync to mobile me. I solved some of this by using google, but....Also, what is the hang up with paying for something? Why do Linux users feel everything should be free? Do programmer not deserve to get paid for their work? I felt guilty for not paying for Linux!!! My goodness programming is hard work, long and consuming. $29 would be a steal for Linux Mint, but lack of available software makes this masterpiece seem as a common painting. An automotive analogy. "I have the world's fastest hemi running under the hood. The only problem is, there are no tires to drive it down the road."
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mastablasta »

willie42 wrote:I believe that if the IT dept was any good at big corporations and businesses that they could make Linux work. I think its just the times we live in. People want to buy buy and buy more instead of making the things they have work. For the general pc user its all lack of patience. I have grown over time to be patient with everyone and everything in my life and to work with what I have. If people would put forth an ounce of effort there would be alot less people giving up on Linux and I think Bill Gates and Steve Jobs might not be recieveing the capital they are today. Just my opinion of course. :wink:

it's not that simple. you have windows XP working over 12 years. all porgramms installed there will work for 12 years. maybe there will be some updates but they will work.

you have linux, it gets updated, support for certain porgramme gets dropped and you can loose programmes or maybe you can get it to work still but you can't find the libraries. even worse community that made programme is gone and there is no one to provide you with update that will work in new environment.

you might say well you can still use the old linux. yeah you can but it's not patched. it's a security risk. it also has unresolved bugs.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by ronandiver »

I come from a different perspective,and please forgive me.

I'm ex XP,and with no computer knowledge,love to delve into the inner workings of PCs.....usually causing disastrous results ! :lol:

That's the reason i came upon Linux...and i LOVE it.

Forgive me again,but i find it too difficult to tamper with things i don't know about....meaning that i have an operating system that does what it says on the tin.

I have the most minimilstic desktop known to man.....and it does me just fine!

Forza Linux !!!!! :wink:
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