Why do new people give up on Linux?

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Buggsy
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Buggsy »

feed3 wrote:The environment in this thread seems getting hotter and hotter.. Maybe mods can say something to cool it down? :)

Ahhh, i miss husse.. :cry: if he still here, he will definitely say something to cool down you all so that this forum is all about helping each other, not to shoot each other.. :( i miss that friendly environment when i first time came here.. sob.. sob.. :cry:
Yeah, from what I've been reading, Husse may have been a Troll, but the point is kinda' mute now... :lol:

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by feed3 »

Buggsy wrote: Yeah, from what I've been reading, Husse may have been a Troll,
What do you meant by that??

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eiver
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by eiver »

I believe we are getting very close to what Godwin's law describes, so maybe someone should consider closing this topic - everything relevant has been said already a long time ago.

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Kilz
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Kilz »

eiver wrote:I believe we are getting very close to what Godwin's law describes
I bet Hitler would have come to the same conclusion. :D


I just couldnt help it :D
I trust Microsoft about as far as I could comfortably spit a dead rat
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MrD
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by MrD »

I've just installed Ubuntu 10.10 on my laptop which has had various successive builds of Mint on it for a while now, to test it out out of sheer frustration at low flash video performance. There is a massive boost. It makes it workable. I have Intel GM965/GL960 onboard graphics.

I'll not give up on linux. Because of the security it offers. Because of the open source software. I rarely have to reinstall due to error, don't tend to get hit by problems that gradually slowdown or make my laptop unusable. I'm not saying there aren't problems, but I've found there are problems with Windows that don't happen to me now. These tend to include losing my writing/university work, or losing my time having to fix issues. Also the thought processes that come with linux mean that I am more open to what software I need rather than what i want. A computer is a tool, for information, discussion, entertainment (video and audio) and also to perform tasks that create the multimedia I use in my hobbies.

The gap has lessened in many areas, and in some linux outperforms. Having had to go to vanilla Ubuntu was a necessary step to carry out my needs. Note I didn't give in and go to Windoze, even if my desktop pc has it dual booting on a partition so my kids can play their favourite games. Although Hedgewars has their attention in Ubuntu right now.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mikhou »

jonny75904,

I agree with you that time is an issue when it comes to doing certain things with Linux. HOWEVER, I would disagree with the sentiment that Linux equals a huge investment of time. If all somebody wants to do is surf the web, check email, and write letter or two then somebody with minimal computer skills could install LM and be completely happy. They don't even have to ever install any updates or even reinstall a new version on a 6-month cycle. LM as is is just as easy to install and use as Windows, again, with minimal computer skills.

Now the primary difference might be that Windows comes pre-installed, but if somebody is interested in using a minimal OS for the tasks mentioned above, I'm sure they could find a friend with enough computer skills to load LM in less than an hour. When I think of someone who has little computer savvy but does the tasks mentioned above, I think of my 62-year old mother. And I really think that I could teach her to use LM in under an hour. Just my $.02.

But back to the topic at hand - "Why do new people give up on Linux?" Because they're used to Windows and it comes pre-installed. Linux doesn't require a huge time investment (although, it can if you want to do a lot of tweaking).

mikhou

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by AlbertP »

Broadcom has started having better Linux support last year - Dell and HP stopped buying their wireless networking cards because they did not work with Linux! But that driver is only for 3 43xx chips, the others still need wl / ndiswrapper / proprietary firmware to work.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Edward.H »

Most of them are used to Windows,they would feel bad when they experience Linux :)

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by grey1960envoy »

Personally I believe that people do give up on things too easily, not just Linux but anything that requires the slightest bit of brain power and tinkering. We have become a society of techno junkies IF it works right, but if it fails the landfill is a good place to put them then go out and buy something that does work :!: I am writing this on my Hackintosh that took me almost 2 weeks to get fully operating (most people I know would have given up about 4 hours into the build because they wouldn't RTFM or had no patience to carry it through to the end). I know this is a Mint forum but I needed to see how well a Mac works without shelling out a fortune to buy one.
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by AlbertP »

With Windows you also need to install a driver for the Broadcoms to work, but those drivers are preinstalled. Many people don't know of those preinstalled drivers, they think wireless just works in Windows. On a Sony VAIO laptop where I reinstalled Vista, I had to install tens of drivers. I booted a live USB of Mint 10 KDE and as far as I could see in 5 mins of Linux, everything worked fine.
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FranzB »

I had been thinking about changing to Linux for some time and after a lot of surfing on the net I finally undertook some action.
I have been using Linux Mint 10 now on and off in dual boot mode with Windows 7. I wanted to start a new thread about some things that are in my opinion really irritating about Linux. However, I may as well post my remarks on this thread. It is not supposed to be destructive, but constructive criticism as I am a scientist.

First of all, I think that the option to download Linux from some mirror site, then check its integrity with MD5, then burn it to a CD (hoping nothing goes wrong) should not be the first option you are confronted with, certainly not a general, average computer user.
The first option should be clearly to have the CD-R shipped for a small fee from one of the Linux stores. I did just that and I must say that the service was supportive, reliable and fast (it took one week to have it shipped from the UK to the Netherlands) and the program could be installed without a hinch. I don't know whether it is allowed to give the address or link to the shop so I will refrain from that. Anyone can google for it.

Then came the first task of adjusting the settings. It drove me nuts. Granted, I am not an expert but reasonably well experienced (I have been using computers since 1966! IBM 360-11, Fortran and Basic programming, and at one time I set up a computerized program to run a chemical analysis fully automatically). Still, I was cursing trying to get things right when, e.g., using the color options presented under
Menu-Preferences-Appearances and then Themes, Background, Fonts, and Visual Effects. It drove me nuts. Try to understand this rotating triangle and the dot in it.
It's trial and error. At one time I had black lettering on a black background. It got that bad that I considered uninstalling Linux. The only thing that prevented that was the
trouble to get the Windows 7 boot loader back. So I kept Linux and returned to it eventually.
Windows 7 irritates me to no end because of all the options that 95% of those who use a computer never ever will use. They want to go from A to B and don't need a Ferrari Formula 1 racing car for that or worry about colors, stipes and what have you.
In a way Linux Mint is like W 7, only at different places. Thousands of options.
To those who designed the program and are looking after changes to it: please keep it simple. The greatest sophistication lies in simplicity. The great majority of computer users don't need all that. On the contrary, having too many options may turn them away from using it. The latter would be a pity. It should have more users,
not this meagre 2%. Unfortunately, as I did notice during my job, many computer programmers are somwhat autistic and I doubt that my words here will have much of an effect. Please...............

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by AlbertP »

Trouble to get bootloader back? Just keeb Grub, set delay to 0 and Windows to default. No one cares about the second left by Grub chain-loading.
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maxmir
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by maxmir »

FranzB wrote:Unfortunately, as I did notice during my job, many computer programmers are somwhat autistic and I doubt that my words here will have much of an effect.
If you insult people it often makes them disinclined to help.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FranzB »

To Maxmir:

I am sorry, it was not meant to be insulting. I should have written "autistic", in the sense that they often are
too engrossed with the program as such and not with the fact that people have to use it. I have even seen one programmer walking out of a discussion with another without saying anything, apparently too concentrated on his own work to listen to the other's argument.
At one time a CEO of a big company visited me since they were interested in what I was doing. The question that actually interested him most was asked when we walked to lunch. "How was the interface between you and the programmers?". That is what I was referring to. I did not want to insult. Sorry for the rather quick use of the word.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by maxmir »

FranzB wrote:I am sorry, it was not meant to be insulting.
No need for apologies, certainly not to me, I was just making an observation. Anyway, I'm not a programmer, just a systems architect / systems integrator who can't get a job.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by randomizer »

FranzB wrote:I am sorry, it was not meant to be insulting. I should have written "autistic", in the sense that they often are
too engrossed with the program as such and not with the fact that people have to use it.
For a good portion of Free software the developers write the software for themselves, and it's a bonus if others can use it as well. It probably makes perfect sense in their view, because it's exactly how they envisioned that it would work.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FranzB »

I agree with Randomizer if it relates to free software and not to software developed by some large company that pays the programmers. But there is nothing wrong with having a second look at the program once it is finshed, either by the programmer himself or, even better, by another one, and polish it so that others can use it without too many problems. Articles, e.g. in scientific journals, are always reviewed or refereed by others in the same field before they are published and often changes are suggested, sometimes these are even required. It does not mean that the work is useless or bad; it is simply polished so that others can take advantage of the author's creativity.

And while I am at it, this thread "Why do people give up on Linux?" is all very interesting of course but it is, in my opinion, one step too far for finding the reasons why only 2% of the computers use a Linux OS. The question should be "Why don't people give Linux a try?" And then I have to point out again that for the majority of users "out there" the reasons are the flollowing.

1) There are too many Linux programs to chose from. All very nice and well but 90% of those "out there" haven't a clue to what the differences are and it requires a lot of work to chose one if that is possible at all form a distance. Just Linux Mint itself has all kinds of variants. The Linux community itself has to make choices of what programs to highlight for the general public and give some indication of what can be expected and for whom these are suitable. I would suggest to limit it to only 3 programs. Once people have crossed the line they are more inclined to try out
all possibilities available. Just don't bombard them at the start with an endless list of possibilities. Like it or not but most people will be turned off.

2) Buying a CD-R to install the program should be the first option presented to those "out there" who want to try it. I am pretty sure that most people would have problems burning their own CD and stay away from it. Look, if you are here browsing the forum you are already not part of those "out there" but you can still try to look inside their heads. The price of obtaining a CD is practically negligible. When you are done with producing your own CD you have earned something like 1 pound per hour.

3) Give people easy to follow instructions how to install the program. I don't see anything wrong with installing it alongside a Windows program and not partioning the hard disk. Leave the rest out; it only gives people doubts again. Give some instructions of how much space to allocate to Linux, depending on how much free space there is. How much as a minimum and how much as a maximum, all with a safety margin. Again, once people have been using the program they can always go to partioning the hard disk. So far this procedure has not given me any problems. Yes, I know....if....etc.etc. However, to try out a Linux program it is good enough.

4) From the beginning people should know that they can always uninstall the program again without too much work or antics. Give clear instructions right from the beginning.

5) (This is not only related to the subject here) Wouldn't it be better to give people instructions using flow charts? Along the lines of (old?) programming languages, viz. "if this, than go to....", "if not this, than go to....", etc. One picture is better than a thousand words you have to read again and again. One glance is all you need.

I am well aware of the fact that this does not cover everything or is without the need of improvements. I have read a few threads with all kinds of suggestions to promote Linux, like T-shirts etc.etc. Really? Let's get serious. It should be simple to start with Linux and get rid of it if not wanted any longer. That message should come across in whatever way possible. Sorry to say it but that is not the case at present.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by Kilz »

I have just read the last 2 pages of this post. For the most part each and every problem pointed out is not really a problem. What it is is expectations that the people have. To end that issue I recommend reading this page http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by FranzB »

After having read the words given in the link by Kilz it looks that I did a lot of work to more or less invent the wheel again, except maybe for #5 of my last posting. The trouble, though, is that there is no date on that webpage, something that is done all too often and is very annoying. Things may have changed with the appearance of recent Linux editions.
As to the expectations of people: why are those present in the first place? Could it be a question of having obtained not so realistic cons and pros? Maybe.

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Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by kmb42vt »

FranzB wrote:After having read the words given in the link by Kilz it looks that I did a lot of work to more or less invent the wheel again, except maybe for #5 of my last posting. The trouble, though, is that there is no date on that webpage, something that is done all too often and is very annoying. Things may have changed with the appearance of recent Linux editions.
As to the expectations of people: why are those present in the first place? Could it be a question of having obtained not so realistic cons and pros? Maybe.
I agree and they have come a long way. The "Linux is not Windows" article may still be a good read but the article itself is rather dated (I think it was published in either 2007 or 2008 since it still mentions "Linspire" as a viable Linux based OS (Linspire was launched in 2007 and discontinued in 2008). 3 to 4 years tends to be an a long time as far as computer technology/software is concerned and the most popular Linux distros have indeed come a long way since then.
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