Why do new people give up on Linux?

Chat about Linux in general
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

hinto wrote:Debian/RedHat/Suse/Solaris/BSD/Gentoo/Arch has had the Apple Store paradigm years before Apple.
-Hinto
I did some Googling about LInux app stores and found them all to be recent and still I'm wrong. (Why bother sometimes?) :oops:

-------

Still, the best way to research anything isn't to keep researching but simply state a dubious fact before experts... and wait five seconds for someone to correct you.

I once needed to know something about every religious text on the planet. If it made a reference to a specific thing. Like: did the saviour ever eat fish? Googling wasn't conclusive. So I went to theist site and simply stated saviours hate fish... hoping to be corrected.

Within minutes I had every 'fish' answer for every faith.

:mrgreen:
Last edited by The Pool Man on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

The "App Store" predates Apple. It's known as the repositories. Each of those mentioned derivatives all have one.
The repositories all have public key verifications and are checksumed (trusted).
They all have a manager, either command line or GUI which manages the installs and dependencies.

Debian, for one has been around since it's creation in 1996 (way before Apple in 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_%28iOS%29

-Hinto
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

coffee412 wrote:This turns people off because it has to be configured. They also do not understand the idea of different desktop enviroments available (KDE, LXDE, MATE, CINN ect...). Remember, These are people that are really totally computer illiterate and do not know the difference between their desktop and browser.
Umm... speaking of fault, it's not the noob's fault they don't understand the differences between KDE, LXDE, MATE, and CINN. There is nothing the least bit intuitive about these labels and what they even mean. I wiki'd 'KDE" and learned next to nothing useful.
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

As a user since 2006, I really don't care about the differences between KDE/XFCE/Cinnamon/OpenBox Desktop Environments.
I still make my choice based on "Ooo that looks pretty or Uggg that's awful".

The Desktop Environment is [almost] irrelevant. It's the applications that get the job done. Any application can be installed on any Desktop Environment.
That is, K3B (qt based) runs just fine in OpenBox (or others).
Firefox/Thunderbird (gtk based) run just fine in KDE (or others).

-Hinto
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

hinto wrote:Any application can be installed on any Desktop Environment.
So far this noob has found this not to be true.

I like this audio program called Atraci. It installed fine on elementary OS. In Linux KDE it's buggy. Like the close button doesn't actually work until you've hit it three times.

And in CInnamon I installed Calligra Office and it broke immediately. Uninstalling didn't work properly. Works fine in KDE and eOS.

What am I missing?
Last edited by The Pool Man on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

It is true.
If it doesn't work, then it's the app, not the Desktop Environment.
-Hinto

Edit:
http://linuxg.net/how-to-install-atraci ... x-systems/
http://linuxg.net/how-to-install-callig ... ry-os-0-2/
You're installing out of the "App Store" so you're on your own.
If you really want to do things right, then you have to get caligra and atraci to become more formal in their release.

Neither case is the fault of the Desktop Environment (or a particular distro)
Last edited by deleted on Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

hinto wrote:If it doesn't work, then it's the app, not the Desktop Environment.
-Hinto
If I can't install Calligra office in Cinnamon and have it work properly, you're saying the developers failed to make it work for the Cinnamon type of desktop?

If true, that still means I can't install apps irregardless of desktop environment. Right?
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

Caligra and Atraci don't care about the Desktop Environment. (including Cinnamon)
They have dependencies, which if aren't met (including the version) then they won't perform well on _any_ desktop, not just a select few.
When installing from a repository (Debian/Ubuntu/PPA) all dependencies will be met. If not, then it's a problem with the Application, not the distro. (or Desktop Environment)

See the edit of my previous post.
-Hinto
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

Ahh! I'm kinda getting it now.

I'm going to that Atraci page and try out their approach. I didn't install from the app store but followed terminal directions from a webpage. However, if mem serves, the directions weren't as elaborate as the ones you just linked. They may have been dated.

Thanks for your comments, feedback, help. Noob appreciates.
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

No problem.
I didn't see either application in synaptic (or software manager).
Look for a ppa (only applicable for Ubuntu-based distros like Mint, but not Debian) or a sources.list entry (for Debian or Ubuntu).
That will help mitigate any dependency issues.

http://askubuntu.com/questions/4983/wha ... i-use-them
https://wiki.debian.org/SourcesList

-Hinto
lizlipz
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by lizlipz »

hinto wrote:It's called yum, pacman, apt-get. All install apps that a particular distro repository contains.
No need to "standardize" installers.
-Hinto

Exactly my point. I haven't used Windows since XP and I don't know what Yum is (except my wife's cooking), thought Pacman was an 80's game and I think apt-get is something in Konsole (Terminal). I have no interest in copying and pasting code into terminal. My interest is in using Linux GUI and applications. I updated from Linux Mint Nadia to Rebecca and found that Kompozer cannot install. Because I think like Windows users, I just want to install from software manager, but had no options for web editing. After googling I found SeaMonkey, BlueGriffin etc. Once again I had to deal with .tar.gz. I could not see compile or make or whatever setup is called. So had to google to find how to install the applications. Yes I should be an expert in Konsole by now, but it only highlights my point. Not everyone comes to Linux wanting to become a code guru. While a windows user I didn't live in MSDOS and know all the keyboard shortcuts.

Perhaps many windows users leave linux because their programs don't work on Linux and to install Linux programs is not straight forward, (unless they find them in software manager).

PS. Hardware support is another big issue to deter newby's.
Dave
deleted

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by deleted »

I'm out since no one really wants to solve anything.
Some want App Store, some want tarballs.
Debian/Ubuntu/Mint all have an "App Store" by design.
If you want tarballs, you want to use Slackware.

You may choose your poison.
Debian has over 37,500 pre-built binaries and ap-get, synapric, software manager will let you browse them, install them and magically figure out
all the dependencies for you. Why make things harder for yourself than they really are?

www.debian.org

-H
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

hinto wrote:Some want App Store, some want tarballs.
Debian/Ubuntu/Mint all have an "App Store" by design.
It should be said, in defense of Linux, that most distros... even the anorexic ones... ship with most needed apps included for basic computer users... the very type of users these concerns are addressed to.
User avatar
WinterTroubles
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1472
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:25 am
Location: UK

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by WinterTroubles »

Just thinking out loud here and not really trying to make any particular point...

I first installed mint 9 to 12 months ago, not sure exactly when of I'm honest, for a few months I was happily using my lovely new Mint installation with neither a care or a problem. I installed Mint 16 as my first Linux and did so with the full knowledge that I would be reinstalling a few months later when 17 was released, as I'm reasonably technically literate (even if not always competent :lol: ) I took to these forums in the run up to the release of 17 so as to make sure I was prepared. Between the initial installation and my preparations for the install of 17 I had virtually no contact with the 'Linux community' or any other linux users that I was aware of, it simply wasn't a conversation topic.

Since becoming active on these forums I have learned an inordinate amount about Linux and am now able to assist with some of the less technical requests (allowing the more technically able to focus a little more on the more technical issues, hopefully :) ). The one thing I didn't expect to learn though, as my experience had been trouble free, is just how much of a struggle some people have getting a Linux OS working on their machines.

Now, as my voice was never heard in the Linux community, due to it just working on my machine, I do wonder how many other people are out there who's voice is never heard because they simply don't have any issues or any desire to 'get involved'. Judging by the seemingly steady (but small) stream of people posting about issues related to using a now unsupported version of Mint, that have either never posted before or not for a very long time and presumably don't keep up to date with what's happening with the Mint project or they would've realised their version was unsupported, I can't help but reach the conclusion that possibly a significant number of newbies neither give up or actually care that they are using Linux, it simply works for them and, just like a microwave oven, that is as far as their interest goes.


Hmm.. Did I ramble.. :lol:

Regards
WT
17.1Cinn/17.1Xfce

If solved please edit the subject line of your first post to include [Solved] so other users know there's a solution in the topic.

GNU Terry Pratchett
mintybits
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1123
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mintybits »

coffee412 wrote:One of the basic reasons a lot of people do not use linux is because they do not hear about it. There are no commercials on tv about a particular brand and even if there are they are geared toward I.T. people. If you look at IBM commercials they always leave you with the feeling of "What are they talking about?". Couple this with the fact that windows comes on basically all new computers its pretty evident why its only approximately 4 percent of the market.
You must be right in part. Then again, why don't people hear about it? I reckon in this viral age that things that are really good do get heard about pretty fast. If I am right, the reason people don't hear much about it is because it is not good enough to go viral, as it were. Not that I'm promoting viruses in linux...that's a different thing. :P
Given that Linux is not only virus-free but free free too you would think, all other things being equal, that the general public would be giving the middle finger to MS and Apple and joining our happy collective. The fact that this has not happened to any significant degree suggests to me that it is not just inadequate marketing holding things back.

I should note that my other half uses Linux on her laptop. She likes it. She had never heard of it before she met me and was a Windows 7 user. I pushed her in to it. I think she likes the "community" aspect of it more than any functionality differences over Windows, aside from virus resistance and avoiding that infuriating waiting every time Windows decides it is time to update itself! Also, she has me to make it easy - any little problem gets instant IT support...she spends zero time maintaining it. She only uses Linux for simple things like web browsing, email, documents and looking at photos. She has to have Windows too for work related stuff requiring MS Office and special work-related software.

I can say for sure that if it were not for my encouragement and my technical support she would certainly not be using Linux at all.

So if a person already has to have Windows or Apple etc. then maybe a related question is why would they also want to have Linux if they are not doing IT stuff? Perhaps to avoid viruses if they use dodgy websites? Perhaps to play media content without licensing incumberences? Perhaps to have multiple PCs for web browsing without having to buy extra OS licenses?
User avatar
coffee412
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1076
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by coffee412 »

mintybits wrote:
coffee412 wrote:One of the basic reasons a lot of people do not use linux is because they do not hear about it. There are no commercials on tv about a particular brand and even if there are they are geared toward I.T. people. If you look at IBM commercials they always leave you with the feeling of "What are they talking about?". Couple this with the fact that windows comes on basically all new computers its pretty evident why its only approximately 4 percent of the market.
You must be right in part. Then again, why don't people hear about it? I reckon in this viral age that things that are really good do get heard about pretty fast. If I am right, the reason people don't hear much about it is because it is not good enough to go viral, as it were. Not that I'm promoting viruses in linux...that's a different thing. :P
Given that Linux is not only virus-free but free free too you would think, all other things being equal, that the general public would be giving the middle finger to MS and Apple and joining our happy collective. The fact that this has not happened to any significant degree suggests to me that it is not just inadequate marketing holding things back.

I should note that my other half uses Linux on her laptop. She likes it. She had never heard of it before she met me and was a Windows 7 user. I pushed her in to it. I think she likes the "community" aspect of it more than any functionality differences over Windows, aside from virus resistance and avoiding that infuriating waiting every time Windows decides it is time to update itself! Also, she has me to make it easy - any little problem gets instant IT support...she spends zero time maintaining it. She only uses Linux for simple things like web browsing, email, documents and looking at photos. She has to have Windows too for work related stuff requiring MS Office and special work-related software.

I can say for sure that if it were not for my encouragement and my technical support she would certainly not be using Linux at all.

So if a person already has to have Windows or Apple etc. then maybe a related question is why would they also want to have Linux if they are not doing IT stuff? Perhaps to avoid viruses if they use dodgy websites? Perhaps to play media content without licensing incumberences? Perhaps to have multiple PCs for web browsing without having to buy extra OS licenses?
Good points.

Perhaps people in general figure that their computer came with windows so thats what you use. Kinda a damning of people in general but I have seen a lot of people just struggle with windows over some very basic stuff. I guess the population at large just dont get it.

My wife is totally computer ignorant. I took her laptop one day after she complained about windows and put linux Mint on it. She has never gone back. She hated the fact that every time she booted her laptop up it had to update for a while and reboot a lot. Now she happily surfs the web in comfort and security.

Just like your situation, I do the maintenance on her laptop. She will just show up with her laptop in tow and complain about something - click, click - there you go - Fixed :)

What really made me laugh once was when she went out on her own and bought a laptop. I was suprised. Normally she would have me pick it out and order it. She brought it home and booted up to windows 8. I had to hold back my laugh as I saw her eyes 'glass over' and she exclaimed "confused IS THIS???". Thats when windows went bye-bye and linux Mint was installed. lol.

I really have no idea as Im a computer tech not a marketing wiz. It just seems to me that people take the path of least resistance and that means "What comes on a computer will ultimately stay on the computer" until some greater force comes along and does it for them (me).

Thanks for your post.

coffee
Ryzen x1800 Asus Prime x370-Pro 32 gigs Ram RX480 graphics
IceWarp 12.0.3 * Mint 18.3 * RAID 1/5 * OpenVPN * Linux since kernel 2.0.36
************* Get Your Linux on! ***************
BlueKnight

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by BlueKnight »

chris0101 wrote:What are your thoughts?
Well, as far as I can remember learning Windows for the first time was not that easy, I had troubles, problems and doubts. But as I had no other alternatives, I had to learn it. And I did it because I was willing to learn.
chris0101 wrote:Should Linux be for an exclusive group, or as many people as possible regardless of technological knowledge/proficiency?
GNU/Linux based operating systems can be used by anyone, it has the potential for this.

Now, the hardest users to migrate from Windows to a GNU/Linux based operating system, in my opinion, are not the average users but the professional people that uses specific hardware and specific softwares that simply does not exist similar for Linux or it is simply non-existent, and gamers.

Because everything the average user will need, they are all in most GNU/Linux based operating systems already: Google Chrome, Firefox, OpenOffice, LibreOffice, GIMP, VLC, and many others.

What we need to do!?

The answer is simple: People must know GNU/Linux based operating systems first. Do not bother presenting them to the Windows operating system.

That's the main thing that needs to be fixed. People are used to Windows because that's the first thing most of them are introduced to.

Got a new family member? Introduce them to Linux. Forget that Windows exist. Make Windows look like a stupid, inferior OS, that's what they do to Linux.
Have a school with computer? Install Linux to all of them and introduce the children to Linux.
Have an office with computers? Install Linux to all of them.
Will hire people to your office? Require OpenOffice / LibreOffice knowledge instead, do not mention MS Office.
Will pay someone to make an application for your office or work? Require them to make one compatible with Linux.
The game you were interested in buying is not available for Linux? Complain to the developers and do not buy it.

But the most important is that the introduction starts AT HOME. I am doing my part already.

And here is my case study:
--
My brother and my mother did not like GNU/Linux based operating systems because they thought it was inferior compared to Windows and that there was no software available they could use.

Then I said to them:
Give it a chance, let me install it on your computer. You will still be able to do everything you did on Windows, otherwise, I re-install Windows on your computer.

Challenge was accepted!

After that, complains arose, of course. But I was able to show them there was a solution for everything they need.

Now they are happy with their computer running a GNU/Linux based operating system and they can still do all the things they did on Windows.

They are average users.
User avatar
coffee412
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1076
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by coffee412 »

My Case Study:

I was just so tierd of cleaning up my wife's laptop all the time. So, I backed up her files and installed linux Mint. I told her: "Your going to use this for now on". I really didnt give her a choice, lol. She was tired of windows anyways. Lots of complaints about updates, viruses ect..

She has never looked back. She enjoys it and even hates windows now.

I have kinda noticed that if you give someone the option to dualboot then they tend to gravitate back to windows because they know that and kinda fight learning something new. Its best to make a clean break unless you have some programs that must run and only available on windows (quickbooks, ect).

coffee
Ryzen x1800 Asus Prime x370-Pro 32 gigs Ram RX480 graphics
IceWarp 12.0.3 * Mint 18.3 * RAID 1/5 * OpenVPN * Linux since kernel 2.0.36
************* Get Your Linux on! ***************
mintybits
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1123
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by mintybits »

I definitely agree that Windows' insistance on spending ages updating itself just when I am in a hurry to use my PC is a real PITA. Viruses less so IME...I use MS Security Essentials and I don't frequent dodgy websites except by accident and I have never had a virus problem. Mind you, I am a big fan of Firefox' Ad Block and I have to be very careful indeed when downloading new software to Windows to avoid an onslaught of crapware and malware.

The more I think about Windows the more it pisses me off. I get really annoyed by things that I perceive to be unecessary MS incompetence even if their effects are small in the grand scheme.

That's what I personally like about Linux...it is far from perfect...but at least I feel in control of it (Windows makes me feel I am being controlled) and I feel that Linux' intentions are good. The kernel is the diamond in the (more) rough...it is very good indeed.

Hmm. Perhaps Linux is great for over-sensitive control freaks! Ha ha...sounds like me. :lol:

Perhaps folks who have less time than money and who just want to get things done and don't have a resident Linux expert find Linux unattractive.
The Pool Man
Level 2
Level 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:12 pm

Re: Why do new people give up on Linux?

Post by The Pool Man »

mintybits wrote:I have to be very careful indeed when downloading new software to Windows to avoid an onslaught of crapware and malware.
Lest we forgot the poopware, the skankware, and the dreaded underware. :shock:
Post Reply

Return to “Chat about Linux”