Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by MALsPa »

Kaye wrote:Just as with the infamous "moving of the buttons" everyone is once again making a huge deal out of nothing.

The notification area really is pointless if you think about it. Did any of you even read the article? If they can come up with a better way to handle these kind of things (processes running in the background, etc.) then there isn't a reason to have a notification area.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

There are certain things that should run in the notification area. Connection info, date/time, etc. These are all processes that ARE running in the background and the notification area gives an easy way to determine their status.

For those that say "widgets" can do the same thing on the desktop, how often do you have applications that are full screen? Can you see the widgets when your browser or word processing window is covering the entire desktop?

Again.. There isn't a problem with the notification area. The problem lies with the developers who create programs that interact in a non-standard way with the notification area. I'd rather see a set standard on how programs access and interact rather than doing away with something because someone with a burr up their backside wants to kill a gnat with a thermonuclear device.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by MALsPa »

Biker wrote:There are certain things that should run in the notification area. Connection info, date/time, etc. These are all processes that ARE running in the background and the notification area gives an easy way to determine their status.

For those that say "widgets" can do the same thing on the desktop, how often do you have applications that are full screen? Can you see the widgets when your browser or word processing window is covering the entire desktop?

Again.. There isn't a problem with the notification area. The problem lies with the developers who create programs that interact in a non-standard way with the notification area. I'd rather see a set standard on how programs access and interact rather than doing away with something because someone with a burr up their backside wants to kill a gnat with a thermonuclear device.
This is something that I was wondering about. On a GNOME panel, isn't the date/time an applet, a separate thing on the panel from the notification area/system tray?
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by linuxviolin »

Biker wrote:I'd rather see a set standard on how programs access and interact rather than doing away with something because someone with a burr up their backside wants to kill a gnat with a thermonuclear device.
Well said! :lol:

Oh, and the infamous "moving of the buttons" is NOT nothing.

EDIT: Oh, and:
So if you develop an application that uses the notification area, and you want the millions of Ubuntu users to be able to use it, now is the time to change it.
(from the article)

Yes, sure... Ubuntu vs. the world, Ubuntu the god and Mr the developers you are requested to comply with its standards if you want to continue using its base... Idiots! :evil:
Last edited by linuxviolin on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Kaye »

Yes, that is correct MALsPa.

Actually, it doesn't make any sense to have date/time and connection info in a notification area. They aren't notifications. It makes much more sense to have individual applets for these things rather than being forced into using a notification area. I wouldn't even have a notification area right now if there were another way for me to have the volume and connection info on the panel.

Edit: Linuxviolin, a change that takes 10 seconds to revert is nothing, especially when there is a nice new GUI that came out of it (the new MintDesktop). Plus, buttons on the left makes far more sense than buttons on the right. I won't go into more depth on that here because that's off topic, but I've made numerous posts on that subject as well.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

MALsPa wrote:This is something that I was wondering about. On a GNOME panel, isn't the date/time an applet, a separate thing on the panel from the notification area/system tray?
Not entirely sure. I despise GNOME with a passion. I usually use a distro with KDE or XFCE. :mrgreen:
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

Kaye wrote:Edit: Linuxviolin, a change that takes 10 seconds to revert is nothing, especially when there is a nice new GUI that came out of it (the new MintDesktop). Plus, buttons on the left makes far more sense than buttons on the right. I won't go into more depth on that here because that's off topic, but I've made numerous posts on that subject as well.
It makes more sense to leave things as "normal" rather than switching things up and expecting new users to know they can revert something. The more experienced users can change things up all they want. But to attract and keep new Linux users, one should make things easy enough to where they can use it out of the box without having to worry about things on the desktop working in a manner that's different.

I'd rip a distro out by the roots if it caused me to loose a few hours of work because something was reversed and I didn't catch the change.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by MALsPa »

Biker wrote:
MALsPa wrote:This is something that I was wondering about. On a GNOME panel, isn't the date/time an applet, a separate thing on the panel from the notification area/system tray?
Not entirely sure. I despise GNOME with a passion. I usually use a distro with KDE or XFCE. :mrgreen:
LOL!

I just logged into Mint. I just deleted the Notification Area from the panel to see what would happen. The date/time is still there on the panel. It's separate.

In KDE 3.5, you can remove or hide the System Tray (I choose to hide it).

In Xfce4, I don't think I use any kind of notification area at all, I just have the date and time on the panel.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Kaye »

You're saying that buttons on the right is easier than buttons on the left? That people will look at a completely familiar window with completely familiar buttons (albeit on the opposite side) and not understand how it works?

I just can't believe that to be true. People are not that stupid.

Change isn't always bad. Have you ever tried putting your buttons on the left? It's the first thing I do with any distro because of how much more convenient it is.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Biker wrote:
MALsPa wrote:This is something that I was wondering about. On a GNOME panel, isn't the date/time an applet, a separate thing on the panel from the notification area/system tray?
Not entirely sure. I despise GNOME with a passion. I usually use a distro with KDE or XFCE. :mrgreen:
That's about what it boils down to anyway. Let Fedora change direction and start doing stupid things, I will just move to Ubuntu. Let Ubuntu start doing stupid things, I will just move to Mint. Let Mint start doing stupid things, I will use Arch...Whatever. As Kaye says, it is no big deal. Only stupidity. If Ubuntu believes these changes will attract users then so be it, go right ahead. The feedback I have been seeing suggests that a great majority are against it, but whatever...As Linuxviolin says, it is a dictatorship. I will just move my citizenship to another distro. The bottom line is I just want a good, old fashioned OS that works. One that does not do things differently, or in a weird way, or one that does not throw a bunch of junk at me. I do not need 20 pane menus with pictures or three separate menus, just give me a list of my installed apps! Simple to me is a whole lot different than what it is to MalsPa. I am not looking for "better" ideas that make the OS so easy a rock can use it. I just want things to be ultra-simplistic and functional without a lot of gee-whiz junk in my way. Ubuntu is apparently not going to be my cup of tea. So be it.

I hope Clem can either weed out this foolishness or will consider finally moving to debian. I do not feel Mint will benefit from this. I could be wrong. We will see. Either way, let's just keep in mind that all of these distros are free and if one becomes unacceptable it is quite easy to just move to another.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

Kaye wrote:You're saying that buttons on the right is easier than buttons on the left? That people will look at a completely familiar window with completely familiar buttons (albeit on the opposite side) and not understand how it works?

I just can't believe that to be true. People are not that stupid.

Change isn't always bad. Have you ever tried putting your buttons on the left? It's the first thing I do with any distro because of how much more convenient it is.
It's not about convenience. It's about what people expect the behavior to be and what they're used to. I'm used to clicking the left button and getting a menu. There are many things I do out of instinct due to years of repetition. And this is what new users are going to want to see when they try a Linux distro for the first time. They'll expect the behavior that they're used to, not what's "convenient".
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by MALsPa »

Kaye wrote:I wouldn't even have a notification area right now if there were another way for me to have the volume and connection info on the panel.
Right now on my GNOME panel, the notification area contains the nm-applet (connection information), an icon for wallpaper-tray, and an icon for Amarok, which I have running.

I can get rid of the Amarok icon -- won't miss that.

I like having the wallpaper-tray icon there, but I don't need it.

I could definitely live without the nm-applet there.

Overall, the notification area isn't really all that important here.

@Kaye: Here, the volume control is a separate applet, it isn't in the notification area.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by MALsPa »

In GNOME, try temporarily removing the Notification Area, then decide for yourself if this is a big deal or not. I tried it, and it seems like a very minor issue.

I took a look at things in KDE, which has a System Tray. I keep the System Tray on my KDE panel, but I "hide" almost all of the icons that show up there.

In Xfce, there's also a System Tray that shows notification icons. Personally, I don't use it. You can add it to the panel or leave it off. I never really paid any attention to the fact that I don't have notification icons in Xfce until this thread!

The more I look at this, in all three desktop environments, the more I have to agree with Kaye:
Kaye wrote:Just as with the infamous "moving of the buttons" everyone is once again making a huge deal out of nothing.

The notification area really is pointless if you think about it. Did any of you even read the article? If they can come up with a better way to handle these kind of things (processes running in the background, etc.) then there isn't a reason to have a notification area.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Midnighter »

Kaye wrote:Just as with the infamous "moving of the buttons" everyone is once again making a huge deal out of nothing.

So, you just dismiss everyone else's concerns as "making a huge deal out of nothing"? Niiiice.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Kaye »

Midnighter wrote:
Kaye wrote:Just as with the infamous "moving of the buttons" everyone is once again making a huge deal out of nothing.

So, you just dismiss everyone else's concerns as "making a huge deal out of nothing"? Niiiice.
I've yet to hear a convincing argument to the contrary. These things are so trivial.. people complain about "change for the sake of change", but it's actually quite hypocritical because they're resisting change for the sake of not changing anything ever. The ergonomics of buttons on the left are much more comfortable and make more sense than buttons on the right, but no one ever pays any heed to that (it's too different!!!). But I digress, we should move away from the button talk.

Ask yourself this question: What do you really need a notification area for?
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

You folks need to stop thinking like "power users" for a minute, and put yourself into the shoes of someone who has never, ever used Linux before. They get it installed and they're greeted with a completely different desktop, things aren't where they think they'd be, and buttons behave in a manner that they're not used to. How long do you think they're going to use it?

This whole debate of what's convenient is a red herring. What the devs have forgotten is what it's like to be a brand new user of Linux. Make too many "little" changes, and you'll drive that beginning user base completely away.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Kaye »

Biker wrote:You folks need to stop thinking like "power users" for a minute, and put yourself into the shoes of someone who has never, ever used Linux before. They get it installed and they're greeted with a completely different desktop, things aren't where they think they'd be, and buttons behave in a manner that they're not used to. How long do you think they're going to use it?

This whole debate of what's convenient is a red herring. What the devs have forgotten is what it's like to be a brand new user of Linux. Make too many "little" changes, and you'll drive that beginning user base completely away.
Chances are if buttons on the left are enough to make a user leave Linux they wouldn't have lasted very long anyway. That's not thinking like a "power user" but just from my experience in general. By the time someone has made the decision to try Linux, they should be expecting things to be a bit different. If they don't, they've been mislead and probably aren't ready to make the switch.
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by pluraldave »

Removing the notification area is all well and good but if the replacement is a gnome-panel menu what happens in 6 months time when gnome 3 and gnome-shell in particular arrive on the scene? Gnome-shell replaces gnome-panel and the ability to edit panel appearance/behaviour is removed (i.e. no ability to add this new menu). Will Ubuntu recode shell to fit their ideals?

As for window controls on the left I disagree, especially when using gnome-shell where you can easily overshoot the close button and activate the menu hotspot instead. (But on the other hand controls on the right are hindered by notify-osd.)
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by FedoraRefugee »

The buttons on the left are too close to the tool bar. It would not take much to accidentally close a window, especially with a touchpad on a laptop. I can forsee you calling this silly but is it any sillier than getting rid of ctrl-alt-backspace? :roll:

I use the notification area to show icons of programs running in the background. It is what the tray is supposed to be used for. People use it. That should be obvious from this thread alone.

Why should the people who use something have to suffer? If you do not like a tray then remove it! But why not leave it as default. The same goes for the button issue. Sure, it is easy to just find a new theme, most will anyway. But why force it on us? People who use buttons on the left are the minority. It is just as easy to switch to the left button theme.

The argument for making these changes centers on the fact it is easy to revert back. Okay, but it is just as easy for the user to change this himself!
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Re: Ubuntu is phasing out the notification area...

Post by Biker »

Kaye wrote: Chances are if buttons on the left are enough to make a user leave Linux they wouldn't have lasted very long anyway. That's not thinking like a "power user" but just from my experience in general. By the time someone has made the decision to try Linux, they should be expecting things to be a bit different. If they don't, they've been mislead and probably aren't ready to make the switch.
Wrong way to think with new users.

I've developed and taught computer courses for many, many years. You start with a basic knowledge and build upon that. You don't toss a student into a completely new environment and expect them to be able to hit the ground running.

The same applies to Linux. There is absolutely no reason to change things around just because someone thinks it's easier. There are standards in place for a reason, and departing from those standards (official or unofficial) will only serve to confuse those that expect something to behave in a manner that they're used to.

Once a new user is able to grasp the concept of changing things around, they can then make the changes that THEY wish to use, not those forced upon them by a developer who thinks they know best.
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