Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

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Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Yes. Hundreds of Distros, each with multiple DE's, and some flooded app categories is too overwhelming for the general public.
54
40%
No. The insane amount of choice Linux offers is not limiting its popularity.
82
60%
 
Total votes: 136

FedoraRefugee
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

waldo wrote:
What I'm trying to say here is that until Linux developers collectively decide make Linux for others (non Linux geeks) to use, they are participating in a fruitless circle of self gratification. There is a false sense of purpose in championing "FOSS" as a noble cause in itself, and the end result has been a great deal of wasted effort to no benefit of the greater good. Instead of striving to share the effort with the outside world, they are content to parade their efforts only before insiders. That is selfish. FOSS should be a structure to create something useful to share. It is not a religion.
Why is it wasted effort? Better question, what IS the goal? :wink: You say it is an endless circle of fruitless self-gratification, but are you not benefiting from this? How much did you pay for Linux? Are you not benefiting from the "fruitless" labor of others?

You are approaching FOSS with a commercial mentality, FOSS is the end cause! The fact that a few companies have made fortunes SUPPORTING FOSS is beside the point, and even those companies have given back to the community by driving the development effort. It is a fine balance but it works. At least till now...

You say there is no benefit to the "greater good." What the heck is the greater good? You claim that instead of striving to share their efforts with the outside world they are content to parade their efforts to insiders only? confused??? Do YOU not use Linux? Are you not sharing in THEIR labor? What have you done for Linux? How have you paid back the community? Again, how much did you pay for the OS? I do not mean to be rude, but what you say is a DIRECT SLAP IN THE FACE to Clem! :twisted: And you have the nerve to call HIM selfish?

If you do not feel Linux is useful then why are you even here?
The targets are easy: Apple's Mac is too expensive. Windows is over bloated because it tries to be everything to all people, and control their monopoly. There's is plenty of room for Linux. The people who choose to create Linux systems just have to build it for others, not themselves.
Why? What have YOU done for them to deserve it? You just want a free Windows. Why don't you build it yourself instead of demanding that others do it for you? :wink:

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DrHu
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by DrHu »

Not quite the same thing, but freedom of choice is something we should all wish for..
http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi
  • Now that interface is gone. It is not possible to continue Scroogle unless we have a simple interface that is stable. Google's main consumer-oriented interface that they want everyone to use is too complex, and changes too frequently, to make our scraping operation possible.

    Over the next few days we will attempt to contact Google and determine whether the old interface is gone as a matter of policy at Google, or if they simply have it hidden somewhere and will tell us where it is so that we can continue to use it.

    Thank you for your support during these past five years. Check back in a week or so; if we don't hear from Google by next week, I think we can all assume that Google would rather have no Scroogle, and no privacy for searchers, at all.

    — Daniel Brandt, Public Information Research, scroogle AT lavabit.com
What we have on the Internet to which we all likely connect --since I don't think except for some high security systems, that no connection/easy communication links are provided -- is massive amounts of advertising and user tracking/data collection..
--Google, of course being the biggest progenitor of this mode

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by MALsPa »

Yeah, DrHu, that was NOT good news. Never a good thing when someone takes away some of our options.

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by waldo »

. . . clipped from FedoraRefugee:
. . . I do not mean to be rude, but what you say is a DIRECT SLAP IN THE FACE to Clem! And you have the nerve to call HIM selfish?

If you do not feel Linux is useful then why are you even here?
You appear to be an angry person, and poor at reading comprehension at that.

I am here because Clem is one of the few people running a Linux distro that actually has the non technical user in mind with every change and improvement that his team makes. I applaud that, and support it. Mint is farther along this goal than any other distro. The problem is not Clem and Mint. The problem is that after over 12 years of "serious" desktop development, the work that Clem is doing should even need to be done. It should have happened a long time ago. Do you comprehend that now?

What I don't applaud is the attitude you and others have professed that only people who wish to make the effort to understand the intricacies of Linux deserve to be among the elite that use it. No, I don't want a free Windows. I want a Linux distro that can compete along side of Windows as a real alternative to Windows. For that to happen, it has to attract mainstream users, and the developers that desire their business.

The noted 1% of desktop users is a joke, and after all these years, it is an embarrassment. Why would hundreds of thousands of man hours (maybe millions) of programming be devoted to attracting so little usage? I can think of no reason other than the "atta boys" from other programmers. Oh, yes, and they got you using it. Perhaps that's all they need.

Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by MALsPa »

waldo wrote:Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Back to the real question: Is it really a problem?

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Biker »

And the day you have an equal number of users using Linux as there are Windows users, you'll end up in the same rut that Windows users currently occupy. Constant releases to fix security concerns, complaints from individuals who really don't understand how the OS works, and many developers throwing their hands up in disgust, wondering what the hell happened to their distribution.

Is there a problem with too many distributions? Nope. Is there a problem with too many apps? Nope. If one can't make an informed choice about what they wish to use, stay with Windows.
Linux User #384279

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

waldo wrote: You appear to be an angry person, and poor at reading comprehension at that.
Angry? :D Nope, not at all! I enjoy using Linux and am happy and grateful that I came along during its golden age.

As far as my reading comprehension, I feel it is just fine. Maybe you can steer me to the place where I misinterpreted ANYTHING you said? I believe I directly quoted your whole paragraph, so I seriously doubt I took anything out of context.
I am here because Clem is one of the few people running a Linux distro that actually has the non technical user in mind with every change and improvement that his team makes. I applaud that, and support it. Mint is farther along this goal than any other distro. The problem is not Clem and Mint. The problem is that after over 12 years of "serious" desktop development, the work that Clem is doing should even need to be done. It should have happened a long time ago. Do you comprehend that now?
Did you say that? I am sorry, my ESP is a bit rusty...

So Mint is the ONLY distro that is worth anything? I see. You know what? I really do feel sorry for you. You will just never get it.
What I don't applaud is the attitude you and others have professed that only people who wish to make the effort to understand the intricacies of Linux deserve to be among the elite that use it. No, I don't want a free Windows. I want a Linux distro that can compete along side of Windows as a real alternative to Windows. For that to happen, it has to attract mainstream users, and the developers that desire their business.
"Deserve" to be among the elite? Lol! :lol: Come and join us! In fact, I will even help you as much as I can! But you will not. For whatever reason. You DO want a free Windows because you fail to see that Linux has been competing alongside Windows as a real alternative for well over a decade now! Forget about "mainstream" users. Linux has plenty of users. No one even has a clue how many. Does it even matter?
The noted 1% of desktop users is a joke, and after all these years, it is an embarrassment. Why would hundreds of thousands of man hours (maybe millions) of programming be devoted to attracting so little usage? I can think of no reason other than the "atta boys" from other programmers. Oh, yes, and they got you using it. Perhaps that's all they need.
Are you angry? :wink: :lol: Are you embarrassed? :oops: I am not!!! I suspect Linux actually has more than the 1% you cite, but who knows? Who cares? :D

Listen, do you think Linux should go commercial? Maybe just one distro? Really polish things up and sell the OS? I am not opposed to that! Why don't YOU do it? I wonder how many people would pay for YOUR brand of Linux?
Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Sorry, I just do not see it as a problem either! I see it as choice! But that is me. I am smart enough to use Linux. :lol:

edit: Hey Waldo? You are going to take this as a shot or my being elitist, but if you want to see what Linux is REALLY supposed to be why not take a free day and try out Arch?

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide

Again, I am being perfectly serious here. It really is easy, I am not trying to trick or trap you. You seem like a smart guy, you would breeze through it. It would give you a perspective on a whole other side of Linux. Maybe you would start to see where some of us are coming from, even if you never do agree with us. It would also show you that while these GUI tools make things easier on the surface they only complicate what should be an elegantly simple OS!!! In fact, the Arch principle is K.I.S.S. Yes...You do have to learn a few basics, but once you know a few simple principles you can master any Linux distro easily! Don't fight it Waldo, join us! You cannot help the newer users out until you know where the path runs yourself! :wink:
Last edited by FedoraRefugee on Tue May 11, 2010 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

waldo
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by waldo »

MALsPa wrote:
waldo wrote:Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Back to the real question: Is it really a problem?
Yes. It prevents software developers from developing for Linux. But I suppose that is not a problem for those that don't care if anyone else uses Linux.

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MALsPa
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by MALsPa »

waldo wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
waldo wrote:Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Back to the real question: Is it really a problem?
Yes. It prevents software developers from developing for Linux. But I suppose that is not a problem for those that don't care if anyone else uses Linux.
Seems to me that Linux is doing quite well in spite of this "problem." After after all, there are something like 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, etc., to choose from! How cool!

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

waldo wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
waldo wrote:Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
Back to the real question: Is it really a problem?
Yes. It prevents software developers from developing for Linux. But I suppose that is not a problem for those that don't care if anyone else uses Linux.
read my edit Waldo!

Why does this prevent software developers from developing for Linux? They do not need to worry themselves with package systems, they just need to create source code. The distro devs will wrap the binaries! This is a moot argument! Linux is Linux, source will install in ANY distro!

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by lexon »

I did not vote because of the choices. I would select Both options.
In other words, Popularity for Which group, Techies or General public. Many Techies do not like the General Public in Linux or expect the new people to become just like them. Think of all the things you do to run the Operating System instead of the Applications. Most Linux people here are Operating System driven.
I have seen this for over six years while using Linux. Most here ignore that fact.

Popularity for the General Public is one question.

Popularity for Linux types is another question.

Apples and oranges.

A driving force, person, will be needed to move Linux forward but it would become very commercial like Microsoft and Apple. Think driving Force.

Then Linux is pretty much community driven. Different culture.

How many people want to spend time messing with the OS in their cell phone, iPad or whatever. They just want the thing to work.

Lex
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

lexon wrote:I did not vote because of the choices. I would select Both options.
In other words, Popularity for Which group, Techies or General public. Many Techies do not like the General Public in Linux or expect the new people to become just like them. Think of all the things you do to run the Operating System instead of the Applications. Most Linux people here are Operating System driven.
I have seen this for over six years while using Linux. Most here ignore that fact.

Popularity for the General Public is one question.

Popularity for Linux types is another question.

Apples and oranges.

A driving force, person, will be needed to move Linux forward but it would become very commercial like Microsoft and Apple. Think driving Force.

Then Linux is pretty much community driven. Different culture.

How many people want to spend time messing with the OS in their cell phone, iPad or whatever. They just want the thing to work.

Lex
Good observation! I totally agree. The only reason why the "general public" people are even here is because Linux is free as in cost. It is a free Windows. No more, no less. Do I want these people to become like me, OS driven? No. I think there is plenty of room in FOSS for both types. I just get tired of hearing all of their princess... :lol:

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Fred »

Well I wonder where that leaves me. I don't mind playing with the OS when the mood strikes me. In fact I maintain a Linux system in a nursing home and a school, for the fun of it so to speak.

I also do other things with my PC. I proofread on the side a little bit for some spare change and do a little research from time to time for our local community college. I want a solid, reliable system that doesn't crash, need all kinds of maintenance just to use it, or be prone to infestations of various sorts. I just want it to work and stay out of the way.

Linux fits the bill quite nicely, thank you very much. Does that mean I have a split personality. LOL

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Steely »

Downloading my 19 th media player so I have some time to respond to this thread ( I usually avoid these kinds of posts ).

Seriously though ...

I have never understood the " elitist " title given to linux users. Linux users come from all walks of life and from different levels of technical knowledge. I think media sources such as movies and tv shows have caused this major misconception to grow. That and several million forum posts on the Internet :lol: . Most people that use Linux over the long term know that it requires having to occasionally read or research to learn how to do something or to fix an issue. Does that make them elitist ? All it means to me is that they are putting some effort on their part into using Linux.

Linux owes you nothing and in return you owe Linux nothing.

I heard the above statement years ago and it helped me understand Linux and it's community. You are free to contribute back to Linux and you are also free to just use it and never give back. However, many Linux users do give back to the community be it by releasing their own distro, answering forum posts, answering questions on irc channels, contributing artwork, making donations etc etc etc. There are many reasons why people are willing to give back but in my opinion it is that they are individuals that enjoy helping others. Their concern is about helping the community and not that their actions will result in Linux growing in market share.

Having a larger market share does have it's advantages but it also has it's disadvantages. What concerns me is when compromises are made in an attempt to increase that market share.

Dale

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Stennie »

Just stick to Linux Mint and get it working good.
Whats the point of having several distributions and they all broken in one way or other. :D

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Zwopper »

It's ALL about choices!
What's right for me doesn't necessarily have to be right for you.

For instance for me: GIMP is crucial, it is without comparison THE most used app in my computer.
For "Joe-Schmoe" that wants to rotate his images and take out the occasional red eye GIMP is so wrong.
For me OpenBox with all it's flexibility and low footprint has become a MUST, for someone else 400 gadgets on the the desktop might be a lifesaver, to keep track of stock markets, currency and whatnot.

Linux is NOT for everybody, BUT everyone could probably use Linux and make it efficient for them - as long as there's choices.

My kids for instance (9 year old twin girls) have been using Linux since they were 4, and whenever they come across a Windows-PC or a Mac they feel the limitations of what they CAN'T do in a minute or two...
"WHY can't this window always be on top?" - "How come everthing is soOo sloOow?" - "Dad, what's a virus scan? And why does it pop up all the time?" - "Why is everything so UGLY?"
Well you see kids you've been spoiled with the magic offerings of the great TUX! :mrgreen:
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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by Stennie »

Are there any Linux programs that do not work on Linux Mint :?:

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Stennie wrote:Are there any Linux programs that do not work on Linux Mint :?:
Only if the package requires dependencies that are impossible for a particular distro to fulfill. This would most likely have to do with the kernel version but might also include a proprietary bit that one distro might offer.

The general answer though is no. If it works in any other distro it CAN be made to work in Mint! It might be a total PITA, but it can be done.

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by DrHu »

waldo wrote:For that to happen, it has to attract mainstream users, and the developers that desire their business.

The noted 1% of desktop users is a joke, and after all these years, it is an embarrassment. Why would hundreds of thousands of man hours (maybe millions) of programming be devoted to attracting so little usage? I can think of no reason other than the "atta boys" from other programmers. Oh, yes, and they got you using it. Perhaps that's all they need.

Back to the real problem: 500 distros, 22 DEs, 18 music players, lions and tigers and bears, oh my
..The noted 1% of desktop users is a joke, and after all these years, it is an embarrassment. ..
  • Linux as a group effort is doing well without any of those suggestions
    --what Linux has to do!
For that to happen, it has to attract mainstream users, and the developers that desire their business.
Commercial software developers go where the money is
--sounds like you want your cake and eat it too: for, if Linux developers provide a free service to the various Linux distributions and communities by their efforts, they should be applauded, not derided for existing.
  • Lest, you think all software development should be commercial, and come under one rubric, aka a windows OS group that will herd the cats properly, so that Linux and windows can co-exist as equals and let the buyer decide which to use. Who knows, if that is your position..I don't.
It already attracts mainstream users, unless you mean windows users or Apple users who stay within their own circle
Linux as an OS, either directly used or embedded in a device is everywhere that windows is not, and even in those places windows is
  • Digital Media
    Scientific computing
    Mathematical computing
    Biological computing
    Clusters and other HPC systems..
    DB (Databases), even Oracle
The list goes on and on, and there is no concern about the number of distributions extant, they are not in any way all distinct: they are patterned after some parent, such as Debian or Red Hat(RPM) based

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Re: Would Linux be more popular with LESS choice?

Post by exploder »

There is a lot to be learned from all of the distributions out there, different ideas and ways of accomplishing things. In my opinion, the best example of how a main stream system should be is PCLinuxOS 2010 KDE. No matter what the product is, continuous improvement and overall quality will prevail. The rolling release concept combined with continuous bug fixing is the way to get the attention of oems that can put Linux in the hands of the masses.

Linux Mint is the ideal user friendly gnome system but it currently does not have application updates provided in the main repos, this is a drawback for the non technical user. The Ubuntu updates are an issue as well because they just don't seem to test things very well. There is a poll on the Ubuntu forum regarding application updates, so far updates are the favored choice.

I really believe Linux can become much more popular but the current dominating distribution (Ubuntu) is not what's going to achieve this with their current policies in place.

Edit: Here is the poll I mentioned.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1478564

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