Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general
LarryG
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by LarryG » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:20 pm

Started investigating Linux around December, tried ubuntu, switched to Mint 8. Observations:
1. Learning to use Mint is not different than learning to use any software.
2. The ethos of the Linux community is different. I personally have a serious problem with Microsoft and monopolies. This is a cooperative and collaborative community, right up my alley and I imagine most linux users alley too.
3. My wife uses Vista Home Premium because she just web surfs, emails, and does word processing. She knows how to do these on windows and sees no reason to change. Why bother with the hassle?
4. So, the I think the typical linux user wants to do a lot more than this, and likes the OS and the free software, and feels the need to give back. Glad to get off the hampster wheel of constantly paying big bucks for updates. Also, I want computing to come to those with low income who may not be able to afford a deluxe computer and software.
5. Now we are seeing linux on laptops right out of the box. I would love to see linux take off and bust up microsoft's monopoly, so a version that is very familiar to windows users and costs nothing would likely result in more switches to linux. That would increase donors, helping linux while creating a long term corrosion of microsoft's market.
6. Once switched, some will become curious and, like me, see just how far linux can take them. The answer is very far.
7. So, while linux is not windows, there is a BIG benefit to us to see as many people off windows as possible, and a fairly familiar OS would help a lot with people like my wife who is a natural for linux in every other way.
8. While Mint 8 is different than windows, thank god, it's easy to learn in a fairly short time just by reading and trying, so stick with it and the long term rewards are there for you.
Regards,
LarryG

gstrickland
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by gstrickland » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:28 pm

LarryG wrote:7. So, while linux is not windows, there is a BIG benefit to us to see as many people off windows as possible, and a fairly familiar OS would help a lot with people like my wife who is a natural for linux in every other way.
Agree with you there Larry.

I still have a few Mint niggles to get over but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before I can purge the dreaded Microsoft OS from my systems.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by babagau » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:07 am

I think the car/motorbike example is half successful, but very good article overall!

Elixau
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Elixau » Sun May 09, 2010 9:33 pm

I just realized that :(

FedoraRefugee
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee » Sun May 09, 2010 9:41 pm

Elixau wrote:I just realized that :(
So you mentioned in your "how do I remove it" thread! Beginning to smell like a troll. If not then I apologize for suggesting such a hideous thing. Just expand your Windows partition back and forget Linux, it just isn't for you. :D

feed3
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by feed3 » Sun May 09, 2010 9:50 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote:
Elixau wrote:I just realized that :(
So you mentioned in your "how do I remove it" thread! Beginning to smell like a troll. If not then I apologize for suggesting such a hideous thing. Just expand your Windows partition back and forget Linux, it just isn't for you. :D
be prepared FedoraRefugee, think about GRUB.. :)

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee » Sun May 09, 2010 9:54 pm

feed3 wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:
Elixau wrote:I just realized that :(
So you mentioned in your "how do I remove it" thread! Beginning to smell like a troll. If not then I apologize for suggesting such a hideous thing. Just expand your Windows partition back and forget Linux, it just isn't for you. :D
be prepared FedoraRefugee, think about GRUB.. :)
Yeah, true that. He will have to figure out how to restore the Windows bootloader in the MBR. Not exactly rocket science, but I suspect his problem with Linux and Mint is he cannot figure things out for himself in the first place.

You provided him an EXCELLENT link in the other thread! That should provide everything he needs. :lol:

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Biker » Sun May 09, 2010 9:58 pm

One of these should uninstall things just fine. :twisted:

http://www.garner-products.com/HD-3WXL.htm
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feed3
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by feed3 » Sun May 09, 2010 10:16 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote: You provided him an EXCELLENT link in the other thread! That should provide everything he needs. :lol:
because i need a good laugh today.. :lol:
i hope he enjoy it as much as i did.. LOL :lol: and LOL :lol:

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred » Mon May 10, 2010 7:46 am

SallyK,

Please allow me to play devils advocate for a min.
The difference is that a GUI is discoverable. If you forget exactly which menu something is in, you can find it ... If you forget a text command, you're stuck.
A suggestion, keep a list of commands that you use on a regular basis. They will then be even more easily discoverable. You will be surprised at how fast you will learn them without looking.
If the interface changes, you can look around and work out what has changed.
True, but the CLI commands haven't changed significantly from version to version or even distro to distro, for years and years. So that problem only exists with GUIs.
So, for most people, GUI's are more efficient, because they enable them to use a computer with less mental overhead.
No... efficiency and perceived ease of use are not related. Ease of use is related to a shallow and short learning curve. For reforming Windows users with no CLI experience and an addiction to specific shiny GUIs, the CLI is daunting. Efficiency is related more to speed and accuracy in accomplishing a given task. Here is where the old saying, "Anything you know is simple and anything you don't know is hard," comes into play. Think keyboard shortcuts in word processors. Once learned, they make you much more efficient at creating a document without any additional perceived mental overhead. This is what the CLI allows you to do for other tasks you wish to accomplish with the OS. Think OS shortcuts. :-)

Fred


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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn » Sat May 15, 2010 8:33 am

There are a few things I disagree with in the OP.

In the first section, there is one thing I noticed....they talk about cost, choice, performance, and security....areas where Linux kicks butt. They didnt talk about ease of use....Yes, once you learn the quirks of linux and gain its tools it CAN in fact be easier and faster to use than windows.....but there is a steeper learning curve..searching for programs for windows is more cumbersome for sure, but its not 'difficult'. Learning to use the command line to fix problems is difficult, though its faster once you have those tools. In ignoring ease of use, something which didnt even make their top 5, they are not addressing the major criticism that they are talking about.

I also feel that the opening argument is somewhat smart-assy....I mean, there is some good information in there, but they are kind of framing the argument......most people should be able to figure out what people want when they say they want it to be like Windows but better, and I think its slightly silly to call it a paradox.....its ultra literal. Yes, it cant be just like windows and also be better than windows....derp. What people want is windows like ease of use at linux cost with linux stability/security, good performance....and people think they want choice, but they dont REALLY want choice until they are aware of confinement...most users are not, but as they become aware they start to want their freedom.

I feel like Mint Linux has done a damn good job of addressing this 5th element of user friendliness....something that is not always equally considered by linux nerds.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn » Sat May 15, 2010 8:38 am

Fred wrote:No... efficiency and perceived ease of use are not related. Ease of use is related to a shallow and short learning curve. For reforming Windows users with no CLI experience and an addiction to specific shiny GUIs, the CLI is daunting. Efficiency is related more to speed and accuracy in accomplishing a given task. Here is where the old saying, "Anything you know is simple and anything you don't know is hard," comes into play. Think keyboard shortcuts in word processors. Once learned, they make you much more efficient at creating a document without any additional perceived mental overhead. This is what the CLI allows you to do for other tasks you wish to accomplish with the OS. Think OS shortcuts. :-)

Fred


.


I agree 100%. I would go further than you do in regard to 'daunting' though. I would say for some users, when they are first getting their feet wet, its an absolute turn off.....but I think its good to slowly introduce it once you feel comfortable, but you never give somebody to feel comfortable if you intentionally leave stuff out that they are familiar with....yes, you can add it, problem solved....or maybe not. If you dont get that far then the problem is not solved. All you did was chase someone away and then blame them for not being smart enough...you get to feel smarter than the general public, but you also reduce the open source movement. There is nothing smart about chasing away new recruits.


Again, I am moderately pleased with Ubuntu compared to older versions of linux from 5 years ago, but I am very pleased with Mint Linux as it comes already ready to go, not ready once you add some repositories and spend some hours customizing it after spending hours on the forum trying to figure out how to connect to the internet. Once you have done it a few times its easy, but its the FIRST time difficulties that chase people away.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn » Sat May 15, 2010 9:47 am

"New: I still don't see why they can't supply it as a car so people who want a car have got one, and other people can take it apart if they want to. Anyway, I finally got it put together, but some bits come off occasionally. What do I do about this? Can I glue it?
Old: It's Lego. It's designed to come apart. That's the whole point.

New: But I don't want it to come apart. I just want a toy car!
Old: Then why on Earth did you buy a box of Lego??"



In this regard I am most definitely a "New" user, which is probably why I am here on Ubuntu Mint....but its not that I dont want to learn how to build a car, I just want the car to run before and while I learn to customize it....so I can still get from A to B even before I figure out how to add nitro to the fuel injection.

And there are lots of reasons why somebody would want legos.....maybe legos, unlike Lincoln logs, dont rot if you dont put sealant on them. Legos are also cheaper, maybe. Maybe the legos dont spy on your or turn you into the police for downloading a song you dont have a license for. Maybe you do really like the free stuff and the program repositories and are actually interested in learning more, but dont think it needs to be SOOO difficult when you are just starting out.



When the author gets to problem 5, again I find myself as being more of a neo-user. I totally agree 100% that quick commands can be faster and more efficient. I still want some basic functionality that is more intuitive in the process....and thats why Im here I guess.



I also dont care for point 7. I mean, obviously linux isnt making money in its open source form.....but what if there are altruistic reasons for wanting open source to thrive? I think the emphasis on money and downplaying personal satisfaction and completely ignoring other motivations is a little off the mark....I mean, I want open source to out compete the mega-corporations because I have many views that could be described as anti-hegemony. On principle, not because of profit, I want an open source alternative to become the norm. Philosophically, the idea of stuff being free and open source and decentralized...these are great ideas, and I think they should permeate our idea of society and culture and industry....and to do that, the copy-left philosophy needs to spread but finding its way into more technology by getting a bigger fan base and growing. I think the world will be a better place with more open source technology created by the people for the people, but that the benefit of this is not to be found in how difficult it is to use or how smart you must be to be using it, but by the fact that it is promoting free and open source technology that gives users power over their own technology....and having power over your own technology gives you more power as a citizen while putting more money and power into too few hands = more expensive operating systems that spy on you and turn you in for downloading songs, but worse than that it increases their power and reduces user choice.....but if you really want to protect choice, you have to get the fan base, and to get the fan base you have to start off with something that at least loosely resembles a car even before you teach them to be mechanics.,

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Zwopper » Sat May 15, 2010 12:14 pm

^^ LOLCOW! Ubuntu Mint! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by feed3 » Sat May 15, 2010 12:23 pm

Zwopper wrote:^^ LOLCOW! Ubuntu Mint! :lol: :lol: :lol:
LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:
dont think it is typo! LOL :lol:

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by RipDood » Sun May 16, 2010 2:26 pm

New to Linux, been playing with it for about a month or so. Mint user suggested it.

I am loving it. I am definitely sold.

Read the article and it makes a lot of sense.

Rip

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn » Sun May 16, 2010 10:10 pm

The article is a very good explanation of linux in general, but I am guessing that the people who created mint dont feel exactly the same way....I mean, the position that 'ease of use' is a misnomer seems slightly contradictory to the Linux Mint mission statement. "Easy to use' is written right there as an introductory statement.

And the OP is very correct in saying that 'ease of use' depends on your level of knowledge. Whats easy for the noob is way too slow and cumbersome for the expert or even an intermediate user sometimes. Still, 'easy to use' when written as an intro pretty much means 'easy if you are transitioning from windows and had trouble with Ubuntu or Open-Suse'. It doesnt mean 'optimized for linux masters who have no use at all for GUIs anymore, so we dont both including them'....at least that is not the impression I got from all the commentary.



Mint Linux seems to stand out from the general trend of Linux in that it IS user friendly for the noob coming from windows. They dont complicate the question into obscurity. They understand exactly what 'ease of use' means to the noob in regards to easy learning curve for the most basic functions.



I am pleased with it.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by somik » Mon May 17, 2010 8:44 am

Here is a Linux OS which looks and feels just like windows:
http://www.ylmf.org/en/

It comes with wine preinstalled, so you can run windows in it too.

Am i using it? NOOO! I am using Linux Mint 8 (well, was, now waiting for mint 9). Why? I want something different. If i wanted something like windows, i would use windows! I am switching to linux for the speed and more importantly, LESS BUGS! Microsoft should give free "bugs be gone" spray with every windows OS to imply what you are paying for. If i get a more stable OS for free, why shouldn't i take it?

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by legendkiller » Tue May 18, 2010 2:37 am

well without getting into much argument.....................Windows is more targeted simply because of its popularity and figure of window crashing on pc's is grossly over exaggerated......

Using win for 12yrs now and very happy.At same time i support linux as its great iniative and a full-blown replacement for windows.and yes with less viruses. :)

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn » Tue May 18, 2010 8:08 am

somik wrote:Here is a Linux OS which looks and feels just like windows:
http://www.ylmf.org/en/

It comes with wine preinstalled, so you can run windows in it too.

Am i using it? NOOO! I am using Linux Mint 8 (well, was, now waiting for mint 9). Why? I want something different. If i wanted something like windows, i would use windows! I am switching to linux for the speed and more importantly, LESS BUGS! Microsoft should give free "bugs be gone" spray with every windows OS to imply what you are paying for. If i get a more stable OS for free, why shouldn't i take it?

I dont want an exact clone of Windows either. However, I DO want a simple an intuitive interface with a shallow introductory learning curve for people COMING from Windows. It doesnt have to look the same, but it shouldnt be too many times harder than a migration from Windows to OSX.....or are we basically already using a fork of OSX in Gnome?



However, I may keep my eye on that one. The Chinese are probably going to invest in that OS which means it will get funding for innovation....I have issues with the PRC, realize they have a spotty track record with human rights and dont seem to care as much about freedom of information, but to the extent that it remains true to open source it could even up progressing.

Coming with Wine preinstalled is a nice touch in my opinion. I think mint should do that too, but not at the expense of cultivating its own flavor and native programs.



Has anyone tried that one? I plan on staying with mint, but which one is better for my computer illiterate mom?




Still, how ever much the PRC sucks, it looks like China might be contributing a lot more to Ubuntu compatible programs soon.





This thing right here looks kind of cool....Does mint have something like this? We can borrow from other parallel operating systems right?

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