Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general
FedoraRefugee
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

scorp123 wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote: Either that or they are locking them as fast as I can post.
Well, if they are locking your threads then you are definitely doing something wrong ... Maybe you should work on your style? Trust me, I know what I am speaking of .... ask the others here, they know me too well --- hehehehe :twisted:
What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer? Maybe I should go hide under the bed. :roll:

Trust me, my style has gotten me by just fine so far. Maybe I will see you over in that Ubuntu zoo sometime, huh? :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by scorp123 »

FedoraRefugee wrote: What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer?
Based on the many many many complaints Clem here (yes, the Clem here ...) supposedly was getting back in 2007 ... yes!? It seems so. But you know --and it's quite funny-- I have not changed one little bit. And over at the Ubuntu forums the admins and mods there never ever had any problem whatsoever with me. So I guess the problem is not with me but rather with some weirdo users Linux Mint keeps attracting? I remember one particular thread where one guy thought he could commandeer me around: "I am your customer, support me, damn it!!" .... I of course had a different opinion about such matters, LOL. But guess who ended up getting the blame? Me. :roll:

Such nonsense never happened to me on the Ubuntu forum.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

scorp123 wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote: What, you are supposed to be some kind of flamer?
Based on the many many many complaints Clem here (yes, the Clem here ...) supposedly was getting back in 2007 ... yes!? It seems so. But you know --and it's quite funny-- I have not changed one little bit. And over at the Ubuntu forums the admins and mods there never ever had any problem whatsoever with me. So I guess the problem is not with me but rather with some weirdo users Linux Mint keeps attracting? I remember one particular thread where one guy thought he could commandeer me around: "I am your customer, support me, damn it!!" .... I of course had a different opinion about such matters, LOL. But guess who ended up getting the blame? Me. :roll:

Such nonsense never happened to me on the Ubuntu forum.
Lol! I had the same problem over at Fedora forum! :wink: I come over here and they make me the official noob welcoming committee! :lol: Go figure!

You should stick around a bit, it might be fun. :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by scorp123 »

FedoraRefugee wrote: You should stick around a bit, it might be fun. :D
I kinda doubt that. :( ... In my experience Linux Mint attracts some really strange users who have weird ideas about what they are entitled to and what not. And some here are very sensitive b****es it seems, it's ridiculous.

I found the thread I mentioned above -- oh what masterpiece:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 99&#p15959

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

scorp123 wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote: You should stick around a bit, it might be fun. :D
I kinda doubt that. :( ... In my experience Linux Mint attracts some really strange users who have weird ideas about what they are entitled to and what not. And some here are very sensitive b****es it seems, it's ridiculous.

I found the thread I mentioned above -- oh what masterpiece:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 99&#p15959
I think you showed considerable restraint and should be commended!

Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror! :lol:

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... in#p275233

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by scorp123 »

FedoraRefugee wrote: Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror! :lol:
Are you my long lost clone?? How did you get out of the research laboratory? ... :D

The only thing missing in your thread there is a forum mod or Clem himself dropping in and putting the blame squarely on you ... Hey wait, maybe if I hit that "Report" button?? ..... (just kidding) ... :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

scorp123 wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote: Sheesh, it is kind of scary, like looking in a mirror! :lol:
Are you my long lost clone?? How did you get out of the research laboratory? ... :D

The only thing missing in your thread there is a forum mod or Clem himself dropping in and putting the blame squarely on you ... Hey wait, maybe if I hit that "Report" button?? ..... (just kidding) ... :D
Somehow I am sure some of those posts were reported. :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn »

scorp123 wrote:
MALsPa wrote: Just seems like you have so many more users over there ...
Oh yes!! Definitely. They have many more admins and forum mods too. I found the Ubuntu forums to be quite comfortable and pleasing place in the past 2.5 years since my departure from here :D

For stuff that fits in the more specific categories you get way more responses there, but general topics quickly get lost in the shuffle.

Here a thread is more likely to hang around if it gets answered at all.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn »

FedoraRefugee wrote:Linux was actually much simpler to use about 5 years ago! For the last couple years we have been going through a bad spot where new ways of doing things are creating many bugs and unwanted side effects. If you have the right hardware you luck out and you do not have to mess with anything anyomre. But...If you have the wrong hardware? It has become a nightmare to try and fix things. It used to be you would simply edit a text file like xorg.conf, but today it is a strange mix of voodoo and blank looks and empty responses from people who have no clue.

As far as spyware/malware, it is not a problem on Vista/7 unless you stray from the default settings. You want to fix it on XP? Create a separate administrator account and only run as a user. It is a PITA to install and remove programs, but how often do you do this? Compared to the fact that it will keep you safe it is a small price to pay! Linux wins the top prize here though, with the separate root account.


Well...Linux may have been "simpler" but simple on the programmers and administrative end does not always = ease of use for new comers.

A bike without training wheels is more "simple" than a bike with training wheels. The training wheels in some instances might even slow you down, can make you come to a screeching halt if they get bent, and its one more thing to worry about.....but its better for learning on. In some instances complexity makes it easier. A motorcycle is more complex than a bicycle but its easier to climb hills with. A bicycle is simplier to maintain and you can always add your own makeshift engine with a moped kit, and if you are serious about it you can get your mountain bike hauling ass faster than a typical moped thats a moped out of the box.....but the one thats a moped out of the box is a lot easier to just get on and ride.


I think the problem with the instability in unbuntu and sometimes mint has to do with how updates are handled and how repositories are handled. I think that Mint has a better approach to updates, only installing things once they are secure rather than just throwing them at people and using them as a testing ground for fixes.....I guess we can thank Ubuntu for being that testing ground, but we get the benefit of getting updated with stable releases and all the basic drivers preconfigured......still, now and then I get conflicts that I am never sure how badly they will affect my computer down the road when more dependencies get updated, so I plan to utilize Mints backup tool and save a copy of my system once I get all the basic programs I need most installed, and I can do a clean iinstall with home and root separated.


Who was it that recently said that Linux/Ubuntu is not fighting for our market share? Whoever said this is mistaken. Ubuntu's public announcement for Maverick Meercat is that they want Ubuntu to be on EVERY PC sold. Those sound like fighting words.

I think that Mint might be the better choice for the windows market in stores though, unless Ubuntu gets wise and starts copying the better features of mint.

If you can make the training wheels snap on and off easily enough that they are not a problem for experienced users, then whats the problem with having them? That seems to be the new linux philosophy, and its working to attract a wider audience which in turn means more software and hardware support for the rest of us.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Biker »

The zealots who try to make it a Linux vs Windows argument will fail in the long run. And while the devs for Ubuntu may have lofty goals of having a copy of their OS on every machine sold, they need to stop smoking whatever it is they're smoking and perform a reality check.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Nick, if you stick around I will be particularly interested in how your views change in a year or so. :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by scorp123 »

Nick_Djinn wrote: Who was it that recently said that Linux/Ubuntu is not fighting for our market share? Whoever said this is mistaken.
You are mistaken. Linux is not Ubuntu. Whatever Canonical's goal with Ubuntu is ... they do not represent Linux as a whole.
Nick_Djinn wrote: Ubuntu's public announcement for Maverick Meercat is that they want Ubuntu to be on EVERY PC sold. Those sound like fighting words.
Mark Shuttleworth has to make money at some point I guess? Whatever. He is not Torvalds or Stallman, not Bruce Perens or Alan Cox, not Greg Kroah-Hartmann, not Ted T'so, not Andrew Morton, .... Shuttleworth is just one of many people profiting for free from all those people's work. And he can do whatever he wishes with Canonical and Ubuntu (within the boundaries of the GPL of course), but he cannot dictate the others what to do or not to do with Linux, Ubuntu and Canonical cannot even remotely dictate the direction Linux will go or not go. So whatever Canonical does with Ubuntu, whether or not they succeed at putting it on "every PC" has no influence whatsoever.

I worked for Hewlett-Packard (2000 - 2007) and I remember when certain managers tried to exert their corporate powers to make Linux "follow certain roadmaps" ... Guess what response they received? :lol:
Nick_Djinn wrote: unless Ubuntu gets wise and starts copying the better features of mint.
Such as?? I am using Ubuntu since 2004. In between I used Mint for a short while. The last Mint version I used was 2.0 ... but already 2.1 deviated so much from Ubuntu that it was utterly useless to me. So what exactly am I missing? Or how come that still the vast majority out there are all talking about Ubuntu and Fedora .... but not about Mint? :D
Nick_Djinn wrote: which in turn means more software and hardware support for the rest of us.
Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support??? I have been using Linux since 1996. Yes, back in those days hardware support was very very very spotty at best, and getting the right hardware meant you had to spend days with yahoo-ing and altavista-ing (Google wasn't around yet!) until you found hardware that would hopefully work. Fast forward to 2010: I have far more troubles getting Windows drivers for my hardware! Linux? Works pretty much instantly, no matter where I boot it. Windows? Not so -- hunting for drivers takes hours and days. So no idea what you're talking about. You must be using really crappy hardware if even now in 2010 it doesn't work out of the box with Linux. :D

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by vrkalak »

scorp123 wrote: Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support??? I have been using Linux since 1996. Yes, back in those days hardware support was very very very spotty at best, and getting the right hardware meant you had to spend days with yahoo-ing and altavista-ing (Google wasn't around yet!) until you found hardware that would hopefully work.
Correct, back in 1992, as an young Architectural firm trying to establish myself, on the then, new 'World Wide Web'

When trying to connect my new computer (for business, not a PC) to the internet via telephone land-line. Dial-up was the only way.
The phone company had to run a 'dedicated' line (an unbroken or unsliced phone cable) from my building to the main switchboard (almost 2 miles away) in order to have a good, stable connection.
My computers back then, were very big and cumbersome, and quite expensive. Also, the internet was not near as big as it is today.

Now days, my business PC can do things un-imagined by a PC, back then. And I usually, have no problems with getting Linux work or connect ... stable
.
Windows is the one that doesn't play nice with other systems or OS architectures.
How many system architectures is Windows made for? Maybe, 3 or 4.
How many architectures is Linux made for? All of them. 30 or so.
How many is Apple/Mac made for? 1

I haven't been using Linux since '92 ... I've only been with Linux for the past couple of years.
However, for both work and home ... I use Linux and Open Source exclusively.

Computer life is so much easier now.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

I love Windows 7. I liked Vista a lot! If you don't believe that you can search my posts. But I will say this:

As an out of the box install Linux (in almost any distro) is MUCH easier to install than Windows! That Windows is easier is a misnomer that drives me nuts! You ALWAYS have to search for drivers with an OEM Windows install. It comes with very few right out of the box. You not only need wifi but also graphics drivers. I use HP laptops. When I install OEM Windows on them I have to go to the HP website and scrounge up every applicable driver I wish to use. Then the Windows update site will provide the rest. Between all the constant reboots (though I usually just do several installs and only boot a couple times). Then add the time spent going to the AVG site and any of the programs you use (I use mostly open source on Windows; OO.o, Gimp, Ifranview...) and you are looking at quite an effort.

With Linux you are usually good just running the installer. Wifi mostly just works these days. Some distros require a third party repo for the video driver and the multimedia codecs, but this is usually just two bash commands away...Then you invoke the package manager and go down the checklist to install your apps...No brainer, there just is no comparison. :D

The difference is I am versed enough in Linux that I do not freak out on all the beginner hurdles. If a problem arises I usually know what it is and what the solution is. If I have to do a text install or boot up into init3 until I can get my nvidia driver I am comfortable with that. I generally dislike clunky GUI tools unless there is a specific reason to use it, such as wanting to visually see the list of apps in the package manager instead of just using list or search from the command line. I do understand where someone with NO Linux experience might find Windows easier, especially if that is what they knew, but it is a biased opinion. I feel that I can look at both operating systems equally as far as my knowledge and skill level, and I am unbiased as far as "wanting" one to be better than the other. In my not so humble opinion Linux is vastly easier to not only install but to also use with the caveat that you have to assume there is no knowledge bias.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by vrkalak »

What really 'bugs' me about Windows is:

When you buy a new computer, you get the currently released MS Windows Operating System pre-installed with maybe 30 or so, pre-installed programs, in the computer.
After, 60-90 days the 'Trial" period is over for about half of these pre-installed programs ... if I want to continue to use them, I have to pay for them.
And many of these Windows programs are important ... like Internet Security and MS Office.
For other important MS/Windows programs I might want, I have to search in the stores for them, then pay to buy the program disks.

With Linux and Open source ... every program I might ever want/need is in the repositories ... I can install them with a few clicks ... and NO trial period.
Should I find a program/application I want or a newer version of 'my' OS ... I can just download and install it. FREE!!!!
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by vincent »

Blame the pre-installed programs on your manufacturer, not Microsoft. These programs, often called "crapware", are installed by your manufacturer because the software vendors paid them to do so; it helps the manufacturer keep costs down (or rather, maximize profits). If you went out and bought an OEM Windows installation, you wouldn't have any pre-installed programs besides what comes with a base install of Windows. Then again, with an OEM install, you have to look far and wide for drivers to get everything working...

The bigger manufacturers are the worst, in my opinion. HP and Dell are notorious for bundling a whole slew of crapware with the computers they sell. :P
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn »

Biker wrote:The zealots who try to make it a Linux vs Windows argument will fail in the long run. And while the devs for Ubuntu may have lofty goals of having a copy of their OS on every machine sold, they need to stop smoking whatever it is they're smoking and perform a reality check.
The OP tried to make it a Linux vs Windows argument. I only said that an OS for the masses should not have a learning curve too steep for novice users to perform the most common and basic functions in the first 24 hours...as in 4 to 6 hours of use on their down time.

Whether they manage to get on EVERY laptop, it contradicts the claim that they are not trying to compete for our use.
FedoraRefugee wrote:Nick, if you stick around I will be particularly interested in how your views change in a year or so. :D
I have been using Ubuntu for 6 years, without having to go deep into the technical side of it. I am not a newbie to linux.



scorp123 wrote:
Nick_Djinn wrote: I worked for Hewlett-Packard (2000 - 2007) and I remember when certain managers tried to exert their corporate powers to make Linux "follow certain roadmaps" ... Guess what response they received? :lol:
Thats kind of irrelevant. HP could make their OWN distro of linux follow certain roadmaps if they created their own distro. You are comparing apples to road apples.

Unlike HP, Ubuntu actually CAN decide where linux goes.


scorp123 wrote:Such as?? I am using Ubuntu since 2004. In between I used Mint for a short while. The last Mint version I used was 2.0 ... but already 2.1 deviated so much from Ubuntu that it was utterly useless to me. So what exactly am I missing? Or how come that still the vast majority out there are all talking about Ubuntu and Fedora .... but not about Mint? :D
So you are not a fan of Mint but you hang out here anyway? What for? :/

Mint is more popular than Fedora. Maybe you are living in the past, but Mint is the 4th largest OS right now behind Ubuntu. Fedora isnt a contender even, except maybe in the server community. It does retain a small following whose views may be closer to the OPs....such people are quickly becoming a minority however. Non-Geeks make up the majority of the planet and now perhaps the majority of linux users too. Maybe that isnt what some people wanted, but that is what we have.

And how am I supposed to tell you what you are missing? I dont know what your needs are. I do however know what most people want from an OS, and I know that unlike "linux" as defined by the OP, Ubuntu and Mint actually do what to encroach on the windows market. They really do, for profit or for purely altruistic reasons they ARE trying to compete with windows.

scorp123 wrote: Aren't we already beyond that point where we needed to worry about hardware support???
No.

scorp123 wrote: Fast forward to 2010: I have far more troubles getting Windows drivers for my hardware!
That has not been my experience, but I wont call you a liar. I dont know what your needs are.

Finding programs in the repository is WAY easier than finding them with google then downloading them that way. Its nice. None of this is relevant to my argument. There are other ways that Linux has a steeper learning curve to the NOOB, rather than the initiate. I am not talking about which system is easier once you master it, I am talking about who is providing the better experience out of the box.....Maybe Ubuntu and probably Mint have finally beat windows if we could just expand hardware support and gamming....and these distros cater to non-geeks.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn »

FedoraRefugee wrote:I love Windows 7. I liked Vista a lot! If you don't believe that you can search my posts. But I will say this:
Windows 7 is a huge improvement, but I still hate microsoft. I think thy are an unethical company. However, I am not arbitrarily pro-business.

FedoraRefugee wrote:As an out of the box install Linux (in almost any distro) is MUCH easier to install than Windows!
That has not been my experience with a clean install and a diver/program disk. Maybe if you just have an OS disk and dont bother to use a hardware driver searching program or use updates.

Windows mint is the first OS that may actually be easier than windows from start to online printing documents and chatting with friends. We need to expand support a bit more, but Mint might actually be easier than windows.....and we got there because Ubuntu DOES want our market share.

FedoraRefugee wrote:The difference is I am versed enough in Linux that I do not freak out on all the beginner hurdles.
You are irrelevant to my point since you are not the type of user I am talking about. I am talking about the majority of computer users who just want their system to work, and you are mistaken if you dont think these OS's are trying to compete with windows for more users. That is why they are getting easier. Ubuntu a bit less so than Mint.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Nick_Djinn »

scorp123 wrote: Mark Shuttleworth has to make money at some point I guess? Whatever. He is not Torvalds or Stallman, not Bruce Perens or Alan Cox, not Greg Kroah-Hartmann, not Ted T'so, not Andrew Morton,
Again, irrelevant. His motives do not refute my claim that "linux" in the form of Ubuntu and Mint is trying to compete with the windows market. Isnt he already a billionaire though?
scorp123 wrote: And he can do whatever he wishes with Canonical and Ubuntu (within the boundaries of the GPL of course), but he cannot dictate the others what to do or not to do with Linux, Ubuntu and Canonical cannot even remotely dictate the direction Linux will go or not go. So whatever Canonical does with Ubuntu, whether or not they succeed at putting it on "every PC" has no influence whatsoever.
The Linux Kernel? That isnt what I was talking about.

Still, from what I understand the people who were behind the open source projects and Linux were significantly less individualistic compared to the OP. They were not about being a niche crew of elite computer users who were using a system you have to hack to get working just because they could. They were about a philosophy of copy-left, and I am assuming they wanted their ideas to spread and to permeate society rather than appeal only to a niche crew of hackers and programmers....even if that is what they initially got for their base of support, which is fortunate in SOME ways.

Marketing to the masses is not only about profit and greed. Maybe its about spreading a certain set of values and conditions for humanity as well.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by FedoraRefugee »

alrighty then... :roll:

That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant and that Ubuntu and Mint make it easier than Windows and if they could only expand their hardware support and gaming they could beat Windows. It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk), except MAYBE for Mint, and you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world. We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is. Linux is about copy-left and they want to permeate society with their values and ideals.

But I don't think anyone was directly arguing ANY of that? The point with the market share thing was that WHILE UBUNTU might have these designs, Linux developers in general do not much care. It may come as a surprise to you, especially considering your 6 years experience in it, but Ubuntu is not the only game in town. Ubuntu is a Linux, Linux is NOT Ubuntu!

If you take someone with zero knowledge it will be much easier for them to learn Linux than it will Windows! I have proven this 6 times now...With my own kids. Get rid of all the Microsoft baggage and Linux is easier to install and use. No matter what skill level you wish to achieve. Take an 80 year old novice and put them on a Linux machine then a Windows machine. They will use Linux much easier! They will not be able to do much beside install packages and use them, but would they be able to do any more with Windows? But if they did want to dig in and learn then they will find Linux easier to figure out. Again, you can argue that till you are blue in the face, but I have seen the proof. So have several others in here who have raised kids with Linux or who deal with older people.

There are aspects about Linux that do put it at a disadvantage to Windows. Hardware support is a big one. It is hard to compare a Windows that comes pre-installed on a computer to an OEM Linux that needs to be installed from an ISO. But when you compare that Linux to an OEM Windows, which was MY point, Linux suddenly gets much easier. Especially if all your hardware is agreeable. If you have problem hardware? Then yeah, Linux becomes harder. No doubt about that.

But this is all just talk anyway. It matters not what your opinion or my own is. The truth of the matter is Ubuntu is not going to beat out Windows anytime soon. It is a Windows world and it will remain one. Especially if Ubuntu cannot tighten things back up like they were a couple years ago. Most people are used to the Windows way and refuse to change even for a free OS. I suppose Linux will continue to evolve in a way that things become easier for these chowderheads. That is fine. Nothing wrong with easy, just as long as they do not dumb it down. So far Linux has taken a couple major hits in the dumb down department but nothing that cannot be bypassed or fixed. Even Linux Mint is still a full featured Linux that does not lack in any functionality. But I think you may be mistaken in what you believe the purpose of Linux Mint is! Nowhere do they say anything about taking market share from Windows. Let me quote from the Mint 9 guide:
The purpose of Linux Mint is to provide a desktop operating system that home users and companies can use at no cost and which is as efficient, easy to use, and elegant as possible.

One of the ambitions of the Linux Mint project is to become the best operating system available by making it easy for people to get to use advanced technologies, rather than by simplifying them (and thereby reducing their capabilities), or by copying the approaches taken by other developers.

The goal is to develop our own idea of the ideal desktop. We think that it is best to make the most out of the modern technologies that exist under Linux and make it easy for everybody to use its most advanced features.
While it would be foolish to put the time and effort into ANYTHING with no desire for people to use and appreciate it, I see nothing here suggesting that Mint wants to take "market share" away from Windows. To the contrary, it would seem that Clem understands that the focus needs to be on the OS, not on attracting people or beating competition. Yes, they want to make Linux as easy to use as possible, but not at the expense of reducing Linux's capabilities.

That is what Linux is about. Each developer creating his idea of the perfect desktop.

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