Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by deleted » Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:52 pm

My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by BG405 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:08 pm

hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Agreed! Although I've had a small number of crashes (I have a lot of tabs open, in various tab groups) this is nothing to the (usually several times) daily crashes with Firefox on Windows. That was very frustrating indeed as it made it impossible to keep track on what I was doing.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:33 pm

BG405 wrote:
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Agreed! Although I've had a small number of crashes (I have a lot of tabs open, in various tab groups) this is nothing to the (usually several times) daily crashes with Firefox on Windows. That was very frustrating indeed as it made it impossible to keep track on what I was doing.
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Both of you, try waterfox for Windows it's much better. Also on this one occasion I installed Mint on a friend's laptop and it kept crashing. Turns out it was the Nvidia drivers and only reformatting it would fix it.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by majpooper » Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:12 pm

Mintmag writes
Once you are familiar with gpedit and services.msc you'll wander how you lived without. That being said only Windows Enterprise offers full control. The other home versions don't. This is because Microsoft real customers aren't home user but corporate users. Enterprise doesn't mess around. It's a very powerful OS made with admins in mind.


This I think is the crux of the argument, at least for me. For me I had to use Windows at my prior job, with the military. Windows was locked down for the user so there was no "full control" for the average user. I was pretty handy with Windows as far as it went on the job but as a home user with a typical Home version Windows was a pain - that horse has been beaten to death. If I wanted a Pro version with more control then I had to pay through the nose and probably still not as much control as an Enterprise version of the OS.

Like Ink I put my wife and sister on Linux Mint. Both are what I call "computer capable" in that they use computers to get their work done and to be productive. A computer is a tool for them not something they want to "play" with or explore. My wife does a lot of research and my sister is a college professor. They felt Windows was negatively impacting their productivity. The learning curve on LM was not steep at all for either and they both rave about the stability, security and performance.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:41 pm

majpooper wrote:Mintmag writes
Once you are familiar with gpedit and services.msc you'll wander how you lived without. That being said only Windows Enterprise offers full control. The other home versions don't. This is because Microsoft real customers aren't home user but corporate users. Enterprise doesn't mess around. It's a very powerful OS made with admins in mind.


This I think is the crux of the argument, at least for me. For me I had to use Windows at my prior job, with the military. Windows was locked down for the user so there was no "full control" for the average user. I was pretty handy with Windows as far as it went on the job but as a home user with a typical Home version Windows was a pain - that horse has been beaten to death. If I wanted a Pro version with more control then I had to pay through the nose and probably still not as much control as an Enterprise version of the OS.

Like Ink I put my wife and sister on Linux Mint. Both are what I call "computer capable" in that they use computers to get their work done and to be productive. A computer is a tool for them not something they want to "play" with or explore. My wife does a lot of research and my sister is a college professor. They felt Windows was negatively impacting their productivity. The learning curve on LM was not steep at all for either and they both rave about the stability, security and performance.
The version of Windows you were using at your job would have been without a shadow of a doubt enterprise, but the admin would be the one controlling it. Examples of some differences are, In Home you can't disable automatic updates. In Pro you can but you can't fully disable telemetry (The software that monitors what you do) in Enterprise all these things can be changed to what you want. Enterprise is far more expensive then the home versions and you need to have registered busyness licensed or be part of an organization to use it. (legally) That being said you have made a really good point. I don't' particularly find the Linux community the most welcoming place because as soon as you show any liking towards Windows or any criticism to the way Linux does things. Well things can get down right hostile. I posted a thread on the Ubuntu forums expressing how I was unhappy with the way repositories worked. While some people where happy to disagree others thought I was trolling or something.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by deleted » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:00 pm

Mintmag wrote:
BG405 wrote:
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Agreed! Although I've had a small number of crashes (I have a lot of tabs open, in various tab groups) this is nothing to the (usually several times) daily crashes with Firefox on Windows. That was very frustrating indeed as it made it impossible to keep track on what I was doing.
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Both of you, try waterfox for Windows it's much better. Also on this one occasion I installed Mint on a friend's laptop and it kept crashing. Turns out it was the Nvidia drivers and only reformatting it would fix it.
Did I mention the 3-4 BSODs I get a week? no? (that goes without saying).
This is a fresh re-image of Win7 (by default had no network access and 1024x768 resolution and no sound until I downloaded (with Linux) the proprietary drivers from Acer)
I'm up to day (finally after 2 months of updates from MSoft).
Did I mention how many times MS Security Essentials prevents (or trashes) updates from MS? no?
As far as changing browsers... that just papers over the problem... (like a kid who shuts his eyes and think others can't see him)
Oh well... to each his own.
As for me and my house, we choose Linux.
-Hinto

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by BG405 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:04 pm

Mintmag wrote:try waterfox for Windows it's much better.
I will certainly give it a try if I need to use a browser on a Windows system but for me, now, on Linux, FF crashes are literally months apart. i regularly have this browser open for weeks on end with no issues, at all. With the same version numbers. So, not an issue worth worrying about with my Linux computers (all of the machines I currently own). :mrgreen:
Last edited by BG405 on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by deleted » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:05 pm

Mintmag wrote:
BG405 wrote:Agreed! Although I've had a small number of crashes (I have a lot of tabs open, in various tab groups) this is nothing to the (usually several times) daily crashes with Firefox on Windows. That was very frustrating indeed as it made it impossible to keep track on what I was doing.
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Both of you, try waterfox for Windows it's much better. Also on this one occasion I installed Mint on a friend's laptop and it kept crashing. Turns out it was the Nvidia drivers and only reformatting it would fix it.
Did I mention the 3-4 BSODs I get a week? (that goes without saying).
This is a fresh re-image of Win7. By default had no network access and 1024x768 resolution and no sound until I downloaded (with Linux) the proprietary drivers from Acer,
I'm up to date (finally after 2 months of updates from MSoft).
Did I mention how many times MS Security Essentials prevents (or trashes) updates from MS?
As far as changing browsers... that just papers over the problem.
Oh well... to each his own.
As for me and my house, we choose Linux.
-Hinto

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:42 pm

hinto wrote:
Mintmag wrote:
BG405 wrote:Agreed! Although I've had a small number of crashes (I have a lot of tabs open, in various tab groups) this is nothing to the (usually several times) daily crashes with Firefox on Windows. That was very frustrating indeed as it made it impossible to keep track on what I was doing.
hinto wrote:My Firefox doesn't crash on Linux.
Call me crazy, but I'd say that's better.
-H
Both of you, try waterfox for Windows it's much better. Also on this one occasion I installed Mint on a friend's laptop and it kept crashing. Turns out it was the Nvidia drivers and only reformatting it would fix it.
Did I mention the 3-4 BSODs I get a week? (that goes without saying).
This is a fresh re-image of Win7. By default had no network access and 1024x768 resolution and no sound until I downloaded (with Linux) the proprietary drivers from Acer,
I'm up to date (finally after 2 months of updates from MSoft).
Did I mention how many times MS Security Essentials prevents (or trashes) updates from MS?
As far as changing browsers... that just papers over the problem.
Oh well... to each his own.
As for me and my house, we choose Linux.
-Hinto
I think you've made a double post mate nonetheless I will address your comments. The last time I got BSOD's was when a I built a new PC with a faulty motherboard and RAM. While BSOD error codes are vague and almost useless the most common cause of them is driver or hardware related. When Linux Mint got a driver problem it just hanged with no response. Some kind of error message would have been helpful at the time. If you're getting 3 to 4 BSODS a week then something is very wrong with your system. As for the other problems you've mentioned, again these fall into problems that seem to be unique to this community. Windows is far from perfect and has its' problems sure. But when you say things like unauthorized software deletion or updates breaking I have to apply skepticism. Also just on a side note I rarely update my version of Windows. Aside from C++ dot net and direct X I don't bother with the other KB. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Linux updating system is much better then Windows I do give it that.

Code: Select all

sudo apt-get -d -o dir::cache::archives="./" dist-upgrade
that's how you manual update in Linux.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by killer de bug » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:14 am

This thread is here to state that Linux is not Windows. It is about the differences between Linux and Windows and about why you shouldn't expect them to be identical.


This is not a windows is better than Linux thread. Please stick to the subject !
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:42 pm

killer de bug wrote:This thread is here to state that Linux is not Windows. It is about the differences between Linux and Windows and about why you shouldn't expect them to be identical.


This is not a windows is better than Linux thread. Please stick to the subject !
You can't talk about differences without going over a few pros and cons.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:53 am

BG405 wrote:
Mintmag wrote:try waterfox for Windows it's much better.
I will certainly give it a try if I need to use a browser on a Windows system but for me, now, on Linux, FF crashes are literally months apart. i regularly have this browser open for weeks on end with no issues, at all. With the same version numbers. So, not an issue worth worrying about with my Linux computers (all of the machines I currently own). :mrgreen:
Hey guess what. Waterfox actually has a Linux version. https://www.waterfoxproject.org/downloads. I didn't think it did. This is basically a 64bit spinoff firefox. Although firefox already has a 64 version this just seems to work better for me.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by mike44njdevils » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:04 pm

Most of the points about this blog post (which is strangely NOT dated even 10+ years later) have been touched. Now I'll admit openly before I post this, I didn't read the entire thread, so ::shields up::

One big point that stuck out to me was "Linux copies Windows" vs. "Windows copies Linux". OK, the arguments are there for both sides...until Windows 10.

I was fortunate to have an opportunity to go back to school and get a technical certificate. In doing so, one of my classes was about OS's. :mrgreen:

Long very short, I literally had a different OS up and running every class...then we installed Windows 10...and initially, I LOVED it. I said "this is light, like a linux distro" (hold on, put the keyboard down). These were the early versions, and very light (think enterprise light). I was shocked when RAM usage for idling at desktop was in the 500-700MB range :shock: It didn't have that "Windows" feel to it (Windows 7 seems to be the perfect melding of Windows versions). It was "fast"; I was consistently beating load times vs. linux distros on other computers (I'll admit, I had built my class rig with the only hex core :lol: ) so the results were unfair. But in reality, load times on my box for Linux were only slightly better, say 2-3 seconds.

For better or worse, I have never installed Windows 10 on a computer I own; I probably never will. Windows 7 serves my mother/7 year old daughter just fine; I'm running Mint with zero complaints :)

But yes, this was something that caught my fancy.

tl:dr IMHO, Windows 10 is more "linux-like" than other Windows releases.
"Those satisfactions are permanent..."

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:23 pm

mike44njdevils wrote:Most of the points about this blog post (which is strangely NOT dated even 10+ years later) have been touched. Now I'll admit openly before I post this, I didn't read the entire thread, so ::shields up::

One big point that stuck out to me was "Linux copies Windows" vs. "Windows copies Linux". OK, the arguments are there for both sides...until Windows 10.

I was fortunate to have an opportunity to go back to school and get a technical certificate. In doing so, one of my classes was about OS's. :mrgreen:

Long very short, I literally had a different OS up and running every class...then we installed Windows 10...and initially, I LOVED it. I said "this is light, like a linux distro" (hold on, put the keyboard down). These were the early versions, and very light (think enterprise light). I was shocked when RAM usage for idling at desktop was in the 500-700MB range :shock: It didn't have that "Windows" feel to it (Windows 7 seems to be the perfect melding of Windows versions). It was "fast"; I was consistently beating load times vs. linux distros on other computers (I'll admit, I had built my class rig with the only hex core :lol: ) so the results were unfair. But in reality, load times on my box for Linux were only slightly better, say 2-3 seconds.

For better or worse, I have never installed Windows 10 on a computer I own; I probably never will. Windows 7 serves my mother/7 year old daughter just fine; I'm running Mint with zero complaints :)

But yes, this was something that caught my fancy.

tl:dr IMHO, Windows 10 is more "linux-like" than other Windows releases.
I thought this thread was over lol. Anyway I enjoyed your story and think you make some really good points there. One think I'd like to say which I'm sure will annoy many Linux uses. Id that after using so many different distors and version of Windows. With Linux it really does feel like the OS itself comes first, even if it uses less resources. With Windows the programs come first due to the sandboxed method of which they are produced. Windows 10 with it's app store (that thing that everyone hates) is indeed more like Linux. However there is a super light version known as LTSB that doesn't have it or any touch apps for that matter. I'm running it myself it's quite the little gem.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by tek_heretik » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:13 pm

@mike44njdevils

I don't understand the fascination with a few seconds less booting time, what really matters is how an operating system behaves after it's booted. The systemd fan boiz were making the same argument in their push to get everybody to drink their Kool-Aid. My experience with Windows (which I dumped completely and permanently in 2010) has been huge amounts of time and CPU cycles on wasted on secruity and upkeep. Do proprietary laptops and PCs still come with a boatload of 3rd party corporate ware bloat? I equate MS and Windows to the church and the bible, one of the biggest scams perpetrated on humankind.

Attention Windows 10 users, MS deeply engrained a spyware keylogger in the OS, you've been warned. Here are some PRIVACY settings you may want to look at.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:32 pm

tek_heretik wrote:@mike44njdevils

I don't understand the fascination with a few seconds less booting time, what really matters is how an operating system behaves after it's booted. The systemd fan boiz were making the same argument in their push to get everybody to drink their Kool-Aid. My experience with Windows (which I dumped completely and permanently in 2010) has been huge amounts of time and CPU cycles on wasted on secruity and upkeep. Do proprietary laptops and PCs still come with a boatload of 3rd party corporate ware bloat? I equate MS and Windows to the church and the bible, one of the biggest scams perpetrated on humankind.

Attention Windows 10 users, MS deeply engrained a spyware keylogger in the OS, you've been warned. Here are some PRIVACY settings you may want to look at.
Here comes the politics. Truth be told I'd say that Linux fanz have more in common with religious people then they are probably willing to admit. First, let me tell you a little about the Windows community. It's not that they don't know that Microsoft is spying on them. It's that they don't care. Nobody loves Windows the way you guys live Linux, just putting that out there.

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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MrTom » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:38 am

The first post references the article, that I am referencing below.. this is a great paragraph from the article in question:
Linux has gone from Command-Line- to Graphics-based interfaces, a clear attempt to copy Windows
Nice theory, but false: The original X windowing system was released in 1984, as the successor to the W windowing system ported to Unix in 1983. Windows 1.0 was released in 1985. Windows didn't really make it big until version 3, released in 1990 - by which time, X windows had for years been at the X11 stage we use today. Linux itself was only started in 1991. So Linux didn't create a GUI to copy Windows: It simply made use of a GUI that existed long before Windows.

That's the time when I started using GNU Linux back in the day. I remember the GUI, or "Window Manager" usually had to be started from the bash shell. I also remember running applications right from "X windows".. basically the bash shell. I even remember using a text based browser (lynx.. now links) and also a text based mp3 player.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Fred Barclay » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:43 am

Mintmag wrote: Here comes the politics. Truth be told I'd say that Linux fanz have more in common with religious people then they are probably willing to admit.
What about the Linux fans who are religious? :P

I can certainly agree that most Windows users just don't care.
I've just learnt to accept that many people aren't as fascinated with computers and technology as I am, and especially with the do-it-yourself attitude that often comes with Linux. They just want something that works and don't care to know why it works. It takes all sorts to make the world go 'round, you know! ;)
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by tek_heretik » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:13 am

@Mintmag

Ironically, MS and Windows allowed people to buy and use CHEAPER clones of very expensive IBMs (the modern day 'PC' as we know it), or even build their own if they were able, but in the process, MS created their own monopoly, like heroin or nicotine for the PC, once you got hooked...

Then Linux came along and Steve Ballmer called it a cancer, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Now MS is trying to embrace Linux, in their tried and tested ploy of embrace, swallow and destroy. I will NEVER trust them.
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Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:32 am

MrTom wrote:SNIP.
There is still so much that you need terminal for though.
Fred Barclay wrote:SNIP
A lot of Linux users move over here because they hate Windows. Personally I just wanted to try something different. I still prefer windows though. Leave my exes alone.
tek_heretik wrote:@Mintmag

Ironically, MS and Windows allowed people to buy and use CHEAPER clones of very expensive IBMs (the modern day 'PC' as we know it), or even build their own if they were able, but in the process, MS created their own monopoly, like heroin or nicotine for the PC, once you got hooked...

Then Linux came along and Steve Ballmer called it a cancer, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Now MS is trying to embrace Linux, in their tried and tested ploy of embrace, swallow and destroy. I will NEVER trust them.
Steve Ballmer calling Linux cancer. That sounds like a laugh, do you have a link or official quote for that.

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