That was a lot of arguing but yet you really didn't say much. Only that everything that disagrees with your view is irrelevant
Sarcasm isnt a good basis for dialogue. I didnt say that peoples thoughts are irrelevant if they disagree, but am pointing out a logical fallacy. There were a few straw men and red herrings that needed to be called out. Its not that your positions or feelings are invalid, they just didnt address my argument. You do understand logic and the fallacies right? Ad hominem (Attacking the poster rather than the argument), Straw man (Arguing against a position that isnt quite what the OP was saying), and a red herring (similar to a straw man, but designed to divert attention away from one issue rather than necessarily framing your opponents argument inaccurately).
I think I made it clear that I was talking about ubuntu and mint rather than the kernel.
FedoraRefugee wrote:It is your experience that Linux is not easier to install when you have a Windows driver disk (yet the point was an OEM install without the driver disk)
That might have been what YOU were talking about, for whatever reason, but that didnt have anything to do with my argument which is based on the end user experience, or rather my personal experience. How does talking about an OEM installation on the manufacturing or marketing floor contradict my experience as an end user? Its not that what you are saying is irrelevant because you disagree, its just is not a logical refutation of what I said.
Mint for me is now easier to install than windows. That has not been the case historically with previous distros of Linux.
FedoraRefugee wrote: you again make the point that the only reason why Mint made it that far was because Ubuntu wants to destroy Windows and rule the world.
That is both hyperbole and a partial straw man.
Its not that Mint or Ubuntu is trying to destroy Windows for the sake of destroying them, but Ubuntu IS trying to compete and Mint. Mint is a distro that cares even MORE about how easy it is for noobs. Here you are substituting "destroy" with "competing with their market share" just to exaggerate what I said.
FedoraRefugee wrote:We are all mistaken that Linux is not competing for market share because the fact that Linux is getting easier to use is proof that it is.
Actually you are purposefully omitting the strongest argument I made to support my case. I was talking about the distros, not the kernel, specifically Ubuntu and their offshoots. There is no question that I am correct in saying that these distros are competing with windows for a larger share that is currently occupied by windows and mac. This isnt even open for debate. We have written documentation that this is their stated intent.
While it would be foolish to put the time and effort into ANYTHING with no desire for people to use and appreciate it, I see nothing here suggesting that Mint wants to take "market share" away from Windows
Saying this doesnt address the issue being discussed. The point isnt whether they are taking AWAY from windows share. The point is whether the developers care enough about making it easy and catering to noobs coming from a windows background. It was argued that noobs should sit down and shut up rather than complain to developers about ease of use and the learning curve and tell them what would make it easier for them....I dont agree with the OP that developers as a whole are necessarily that apathetic to the difficulties of non-geeks coming from windows.
FedoraRefugee wrote:But I don't think anyone was directly arguing ANY of that? The point with the market share thing was that WHILE UBUNTU might have these designs, Linux developers in general do not much care. It may come as a surprise to you, especially considering your 6 years experience in it, but Ubuntu is not the only game in town. Ubuntu is a Linux, Linux is NOT Ubuntu!
That argument goes both ways. It could just as easily discredit either side of the argument by pointing out that some are catering to windows noobs and others are not....but you have not substantiated your claims that a vast majority of developers dont care about non-geeks, and the burden of proof is on the claimant. The two distros with the largest market share are catering to those who are coming from windows with little to no experience or desire to become a programmer or hacker. They have a huge share of the linux developers behind them, and they are not the only ones trying to specifically cater to non-geeks.
If a distro is in fact trying to cater to the lowest or near lowest common denominator, without losing higher end functionality, they really SHOULD care about the complaints of people coming from windows, and I think a lot of them do.
FedoraRefugee wrote:If you take someone with zero knowledge it will be much easier for them to learn Linux than it will Windows! I have proven this 6 times now...With my own kids.
Argument from personal experience....When you make such arguments you should add the disclaimer that it is your personal experience, because its not a credible objective argument.
I would agree that to an end user, Mint may now be easier to install and use out of the box than windows. With Ubuntu there is still some issues with proprietary drivers that slow down the initial useability, but they are most definitely competing for our market share.
FedoraRefugee wrote:But this is all just talk anyway. It matters not what your opinion or my own is.
Some parts of this debate have been objective and not a matter of opinion. Ease of use is largely subjective, but subjective things do exist. It is objectively false to claim that none of the developers care about the difficulties of windows noobs or the LCD of the PC market coming to linux. They are competing with windows market share, not to destroy windows but to do their own thing....but they are competing.
An argument still has to be sound and not rely on fallacies despite the subjective nature of some of the issues. There is objective proof that some developers, the largest distro of linux for example, is trying to compete for our market share. It is also objectively true that Mint has a larger following than Fedora or Suse. These are not opinions.
FedoraRefugee wrote: It is a Windows world and it will remain one.
Your pessimism isnt shared by the developers.
And you say that you are not allowed over on the Ubuntu forums
I think that is a really negative attitude and may prove not to be the case. I think Linux has the capacity to compete with windows.