Linux is Not Windows

Chat about Linux in general
deleted

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by deleted »

not pretending I'm special.
My point is that it's free/open source/collaborative.

-Hinto
drydenp

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by drydenp »

I was not saying you were special.

I was saying being able to do that thing is not really the greatest achievement of the human race thus far, compared to other people that may be using different systems.

I mean, that basically says to me that achieving that thing using a cooperative (or collaborative effort, as you call it) is a much greater challenge than doing it "corporately". Which was basically the gist of my 'article'.

Or at least that part of it.

"Yay, I can send an email, woot woot!". The rest of the world goes "Okay....?". And thinks back to the time when they were babies and could already do that thing.

I mean fine if you present it as an achievement for a cooperative system, but it is not an achievement on a global scale.

Much of Linux development (at least the thing I do) seems to come down to achieving something that most other people can achieve right off the bat with no effort required whatsoever, and for me it takes years and years and years to get as far as that they are currently already without them having it cost them anything, apart maybe from the salary of doing 10 hours of work.

:(
deleted

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by deleted »

There are no coding fairies.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the sholders of Giants." - Isaac Newton
drydenp

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by drydenp »

It's just a shame you'd have to rebuild those Giants from the ground up, isn't it?

But that in itself is not a bad thing.

The trouble is denying that you still have a lot of building to do. That's my issue. Or at least, why I think I wrote that post before, that took me at least several hours (my mind is not very fine these days). (So pardon me for any inaffecacy). (That might be a new word). (I don't know).
sikejsudjek
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 215
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:53 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by sikejsudjek »

drydenp wrote:Being able to plug your netbook to your HD TV and use it to stream movies is nothing special you know :-/.

You don't set yourself apart from the rest of the world who are using Windows or a Mac, this way.
Yes but on Linux you didn't have to spend a fortune on an imac that is using overpriced outdated hardware or end up with Windows 10 spying on you and sending back info on every movie and picture you've watched back to the mother ship (NSA)....

That DOES set Linux apart IMO. :)
User avatar
BG405
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:09 pm
Location: England

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by BG405 »

I'd just like to add my 2p worth to this one regarding using a netbook to stream videos to the TV; in my experience trying to play 720p videos was like pulling teeth under Windows (even a fresh install). When they finally loaded they would regularly freeze, making them unuseable and it's why I downloaded both 360p and 720p versions. Now they all open pretty much instantly and play flawlessly, not bad for an OS whose contributors are largely volunteers who won't be hauled into the office for a dressing down or a warning if they don't meet the demands of their employer.

My netbooks are now a pleasure to use, for a whole variety of tasks. I was demonstrating Google Earth on one of them last night and the only noticeable delays were down to the wi-fi connection at the pub. This was very slow on Windows 7, I know which I prefer! I could zoom about with ease. If I were into software development I know which camp I'd choose. Windows did serve me well really but in my experience, Linux Mint does it much better for me, others may not have the same results but from what I've read, many do.

It's not really fair to compare volunteers (especially on such a varied platform) with people paid to do what they are ordered to do, on a fixed schedule not of their choosing. I am very grateful to them for whatever efforts they put in, be it big or small.

And what sikejsudjek said :)
Dell Inspiron 1525 - LM17.3 CE 64-------------------Lenovo T440 8GB - Manjaro KDE with Mint VMs
Toshiba NB250 - Manjaro KDE------------------------K7S5A AMD 1.2GHz - LM17.3 Xfce 32 & WinXP-Pro
Acer Aspire E11 ES1-111M - LM18.2 KDE 64 ----Two ROMS don't make a WRITE ...
User avatar
InkKnife
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by InkKnife »

BigEasy wrote:It's all about bad IT works and planning tasks. Not about bad Windows. If company works requires Windows written tasks then IT works must knew Windows.
Is anywhere englishmen complains about their weather? No, they joked about it and living with it.
I cannot let this go by.
Yes, it is about "Bad Windows". Windows is the only OS I know of that uses such an intrusive, rude and annoying update system. No other OS will just up and shut down your system, ignoring any open documents that might have unsaved changes in. Apple's OSX does not do that ever and neither does Linux. If a document has unchanged changes both Linux and OSX will interrupt the update process and ask you to save your work before you can continue to the rare reboot.
Windows updates almost always require a reboot, Linux and OSX updates almost never do. OSX and Linux do what a well behaved OS should do: Inform you that updates are pending and allows the user complete control over when those updates are applied.
The Windows way is ridiculous and primitive compared to both Linux and OSX.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
User avatar
TooMuchTime
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:30 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by TooMuchTime »

The Windows way is ridiculous and primitive...
That's because Microsoft has a LOT of vulnerabilities to patch every month. They have to force you to accept their fixes and then a reboot. For over two years I was on the monthly MS call that covered all of the current vulnerabilities in Windows. There were still MANY more in the queue. One month you'd have 10, the next month 15, then 30, then 5, etc. You never knew how many would show up. Hundreds of people were on that call and here was Microsoft going over each vulnerability in depth, which was tantamount to MS telling everyone to start using a real operating system because Windows was much worse than suspected. But since they were pretty much the only game in town, you had to play using their ball.

In my house, there is a slow, inexorable climb out of the Microsoft pit.
axordg
Level 1
Level 1
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:41 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by axordg »

I just read the article! As a novice in Linux I must say this is what I was looking for when someone explained about Linux features. Worth read.
User avatar
Pierre
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 10701
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:33 am
Location: Perth, AU.

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Pierre »

TooMuchTime wrote: In my house, there is a slow, inexorable climb out of the Microsoft pit.
and that is the main thing.
:D
Image
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.
User avatar
BG405
Level 8
Level 8
Posts: 2382
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:09 pm
Location: England

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by BG405 »

InkKnife wrote:Windows is the only OS I know of that uses such an intrusive, rude and annoying update system.
No other OS will just up and shut down your system, ignoring any open documents that might have unsaved changes in.
Apple's OSX does not do that ever and neither does Linux.
This has to be my biggest beef with the Windows OS. It shows contempt for the user rather than doing what an operating system is supposed to do; i.e. perform the tasks it is expected to, instead of regularly interrupting the workflow and even destroying the user's data in the process! I must say I'm NOT impressed with this policy of theirs. At all.
Dell Inspiron 1525 - LM17.3 CE 64-------------------Lenovo T440 8GB - Manjaro KDE with Mint VMs
Toshiba NB250 - Manjaro KDE------------------------K7S5A AMD 1.2GHz - LM17.3 Xfce 32 & WinXP-Pro
Acer Aspire E11 ES1-111M - LM18.2 KDE 64 ----Two ROMS don't make a WRITE ...
User avatar
TooMuchTime
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:30 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by TooMuchTime »

In re-reading InkKnife's post, a few things struck me at once.

Microsoft should do a complete rewrite of Windows. When Apple realized their original Mac OS was starting to get a bit long in the tooth, they borrowed code from free Unix-based systems (BSD, etc.), added some of their own code, and called it Darwin. Then they put their GUI on top of it. Apple knew they needed a more secure and updated OS and Unix/Linux gave them that. They had the foresight to realize that mobile devices would only be growing in numbers and a solid core OS would be a necessity if they wanted their brand to look similar across those devices.

Microsoft will not do a complete rewrite of windows. Mostly because of Windows Phone OS and Surface OS and Windows 10, which are all built around the Metro desktop. They are also based on NT which is where MS wants to go. I think. Remember the original Windows phones? I do; I've owned two. They were based on Windows CE and it was worse than NT. If you don't think so, Windows Phone 8 is based on the NT kernel. This is from an article about the history of Windows Phones:
When Windows Phones were used, the OS (WP8) would cache files from apps and pictures that were backed up to OneDrive and not delete them. Eventually the phone would fill up and be rendered unusable till a hard reset was triggered.


It seems like rebooting really IS a Microsoft Windows thing. Also, malware vulnerability is the holy water to the NT demon. So massive vulnerability is built into every MS device. Why not go Unix/Linux? Because that would be tantamount to saying everything they've done to this point is wrong. They have invested heavily into the cellphone market by buying Nokia’s Smart Devices unit. And they're not selling, making about 1-2% of the entire cellphone market. They are positioning their Surface tablets to be the Mac/Android killers. They can't back down now. They can't do a rewrite to a more secure system because they are looking for a massive market share of their existing technology (read as: vulnerable as he!! old technology). It's not happening. I have no idea what Microsoft is doing but 99% of the mobile world is not following Microsoft. And mobile is the future.
User avatar
MurphCID
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MurphCID »

I liked the article. But I am a Newbie and very ignorant of the Linux world.
User avatar
Moem
Level 20
Level 20
Posts: 11583
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:14 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Moem »

MurphCID wrote: I am a Newbie and very ignorant of the Linux world.
That's an excellent place to start. Keep reading and you'll learn a lot!
Image

If your issue is solved, kindly indicate that by editing the first post in the topic, and adding [SOLVED] to the title. Thanks!
User avatar
MurphCID
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MurphCID »

It seems like the San Antonio Linux Users Group is defunct. I need to find a basic class on LInux from somewhere, so I can learn more about this o/s. I am really liking Mint. And now that Alpine is running, I love being able to use it for email.
User avatar
MurphCID
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MurphCID »

For me, your money quote is the bolded section and for me "user friendly" means, I can get it installed with a minimum of agony, and it works when I want to use a program. No dependency hell, no agonizing configuration to make it work, and load, ability to customize it.
drydenp wrote:In general articles like these are just excuses for the poor quality of Linux software as compared to something else, and that something else is then always conveniently Microsoft Windows, because most people are coming from there and it is easy to bash it, in contrast with the Mac OS, which is rather hard to bash for mere design principles.

Nobody actually wants Linux to be the same. Nobody minds that Linux is different. But what people want for it is to work well, and it often doesn't. And if working well means adhering to a certain user experience, then it needs to adhere to a certain user experience.

And if it then excuses itself by not adhering to that certain user experience, but still claiming to be usable to some high degree, then it is contradicting itself. You can't have a user interface that people can't use, while still claiming that people can use your software and get work done.

So before you accuse me of dissing Mint, I am not ;-).

Not in that way at least, but it has no control over the rest.

How he presents choices as either/or when they are both/and

Take the paragraph on user friendliness:
If you spend your entire life processing text files, your ideal software will be fast and powerful, enabling you to do the maximum amount of work for the minimum amount of effort. Simple keyboard shortcuts and mouseless operation will be of vital importance.
But if you very rarely edit text files, and you just want to write an occasional letter, the last thing you want is to struggle with learning keyboard shortcuts. Well-organized menus and clear icons in toolbars will be your ideal.

Clearly, software designed around the needs of the first user will not be suitable for the second, and vice versa. So how can any software be called "user-friendly", if we all have different needs?

The simple answer: User-friendly is a misnomer, and one that makes a complex situation seem simple.

What does "user-friendly" really mean? Well, in the context in which it is used, "user friendly" software means "Software that can be used to a reasonable level of competence by a user with no previous experience of the software." This has the unfortunate effect of making lousy-but-familiar interfaces fall into the category of "user-friendly".
User avatar
InkKnife
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 726
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by InkKnife »

MurphCID wrote:I liked the article. But I am a Newbie and very ignorant of the Linux world.
It is no more difficult to learn Linux than it is to learn Windows or OSX. All operating systems have their differences.
Frankly I get a bit peeved at the way many people with very good intentions scare potential Linux switchers by making Linux seem more complicated than it actually is.
I come from an OSX background and OSX has a very similar terminal available and a very similar set of command line tools but you never see any OSX advocates assert that knowledge of the CLI is necessary to use OSX.
On a modern, desktop Linux like Mint the use of the command line is unnecessary under the vast majority of cases and on the rare occasion that you do need to do something in the command line you will always find very easy to understand instructions with copy/paste ready code.
Mint is easy, don't make it seem complicated.
i7 3770, 12GB of ram, 256GB SSD, 64GB SSD, 750GB HDD, 1TB HDD, Cinnamon.
User avatar
MurphCID
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MurphCID »

But that is what so many were, at least in the late 1990's, early 2000's. I was banned from a board for suggesting that Linux needed to be made "easier" to install, and get up and running. "RTFM" "If you are too stupid to use the command line, you should go back to windows", "How dare you want to make Linux like Windows", "If you can't compile from source you are stupid" and such like that. I was very nervous about posting anything on this board (or any LInux board) even though it has been over a decade since I was run off that board (I can't even remember what board, it is now long defunct). It was not until my brother in law told me that Linux was now a lot easier to install and get up and running that I tentatively started looking at Linux again. I know for me, I feel like I was cheated of a decade of learning linux by the elitist attitudes from that old board. The flame wars of Slackware vs Debian, vs everyone else made the EMACS vs VI wars seem tame in comparison. I am now trying to make up for that time, and having a great time learning, and poking under the hood as it were. I am even becoming more comfortable with the command line, in another couple of weeks I might even try writing a script or editing something with Emacs or VI(m)... (Maybe). SO thanks to everyone on this board, and please excuse my really ignorant questions about Linux and Mint.
InkKnife wrote:
MurphCID wrote:I liked the article. But I am a Newbie and very ignorant of the Linux world.
It is no more difficult to learn Linux than it is to learn Windows or OSX. All operating systems have their differences.
Frankly I get a bit peeved at the way many people with very good intentions scare potential Linux switchers by making Linux seem more complicated than it actually is.
I come from an OSX background and OSX has a very similar terminal available and a very similar set of command line tools but you never see any OSX advocates assert that knowledge of the CLI is necessary to use OSX.
On a modern, desktop Linux like Mint the use of the command line is unnecessary under the vast majority of cases and on the rare occasion that you do need to do something in the command line you will always find very easy to understand instructions with copy/paste ready code.
Mint is easy, don't make it seem complicated.
User avatar
MurphCID
Level 6
Level 6
Posts: 1337
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:29 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by MurphCID »

I appreciate your analogy, but I must respectfully disagree. I got Mint because it works, and I, as a non-L33t Hax0r, can install it, and then take my time getting under the hood, and learning what makes it tick. Then perhaps I am ready to build that car, but perhaps not. I like what Mint has done, in that it is taking Linux to people like me, rather than just the "L33t Hax0rs" of the world who want Linux to remain a small club of elite programmers. I got it up and running, and thought: "Ok, that wasn't bad, so lets poke around on the command line a bit" "Ok, I can do that, lets see what else I can learn to do". Mint give me the freedom to do that. It also gives me the freedom to put it on my wife's machine, so I no longer get: "HONEY! My computer crash/is not working/I can't remember "x"/[insert other wifely issue here]. It was the attitudes of the "elite" who wanted LInux to remain hard to install, hard to configure, hard to use for non programmers that I feel cheated me out of ten plus years of learning Linux. If they want to be hard, and obscure, go to BSD and roll your own. Me, I like Mint!
jackcalvert wrote:Great article, well written. Thanks for posting it, Carlos!

An old friend of mine, a lifelong programmer & consultant (his name can be found in the credits of the latest release of OSAS), once lamented the advent of the GUI (and Windows), because it enabled a worldful of people to use computers and execute programs without "knowing anything," such as how to use MS-DOS. (Did I mention that he's a huge fan of LINUX?) Not being a programmer, I argued the shopworn analogy that one oughtn't need be a mechanic in order to operate a motor vehicle. Naturally, my words came back to bite me.

As a starving writer, artist, and indie filmmaker, I was driving an old Dodge van, because it was all I could afford at the time. It was like the Scooby-Doo Mystery Machine, only with buttloads of rust. One night I heard a roaring sound and saw a trail of sparks in the rear-view mirror. Inspection revealed that the previous owner had replaced a muffler bracket with a coat hanger, and the coat hanger had come loose. Other parts started to fail, and soon the old girl was shedding vital components the way a dog shakes off fleas. Unable to afford the necessary repairs, I got a Haynes manual and learned how to do them myself. I'm no mechanic, however I was able to replace the alternator, the starter, and the water pump, all for the cost of parts and a few tools. It took a little research and elbow grease, but I was able to keep the damned thing running for a fraction of what it would've cost at the local auto shop. It was also empowering, because I realized I didn't have to depend on somebody else to keep the vehicle running. It helps to know what's going on "under the hood."

The lesson, of course, is that knowledge means freedom and independence, which is as true of OSes as it is automobiles. But freedom isn't free. It takes a lot of work, thought, and sacrifice. In this respect, the various permutations of LINUX, while free, are nevertheless the product of an enormous amount of work, thought and sacrifice on the part of the developers and contributors. As an end user, I don't mind having to do a little research or work on my end, because it's a small price to pay for the freedom afforded by LINUX. There's a reason why Industrial Light and Magic (ILM) and Dreamworks are using open source LINUX-based graphics and editing programs. It's not because these programs are free (which they are), but because they offer a level of creative freedom previously unafforded by more conventional, "user-friendly" OSes.

I'm not a programmer, nor am I the most tech-savvy guy in the world, however I am tired of the endless Windows/Internet Explorer errors, and memory-gobbling patches, and virus vulnerabilities, and Norton/McAfee dependence, and the fact that Windows has been the "800-pound gorilla" for far too long. Yesterday I wiped Windows XP from my hard drive and installed Ubuntu, which I liked very much. I've subsequently replaced Ubuntu with LinuxMint, which I like even better, and am looking forward to using.

-=Jack=-
(a born-again LINUX user)
User avatar
Mintmag
Level 3
Level 3
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:25 pm

Re: Linux is Not Windows

Post by Mintmag »

I read most of the article. It some really good points but I also though it made some bad ones. Especially about user friendliness being myth and how better = different. Better means the same but improved. As far as I am censored Linux distributions have quite a few problems they have to over come before they can honestly be called a Desktop OS let alone being compared to something like Windows.
Post Reply

Return to “Chat about Linux”