Linux become more like Windows!

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knuckles
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Linux become more like Windows!

Post by knuckles »

Hi,

I start with my first PC experience --> the first OS I had been working with was Windows95, here at the Installation I had the choice which Applications are installed with the OS, because of the little HDDs in that time, I installed it every time with the minimum possible, only what I need. After some the time and with Windows XP and later, when I made a fresh install, I had no more the choice, I needed to install a BIG package of stuff that I never needed. I had no more choice. For a lot of people that mean, they install the OS and Use the Stuff from the OS, that's why the most of the windows Users keep for example using Internet Explorer. This Example is one of the points, Microsoft is bashed a lot, but what about Linux and his Distributions?

I started using Linux not as a Live-Disk-User, but with classic installations from Suse and openSUSE, here I had the same or even a better choice as in Windows95. I had the possibility to make my choice from a very big Packet of applications, that was great.
But whit the Live-Disks we lost this choice, let me explain:
I'm a very big Linux Mint fan, and use Julie as main-System, but do I really use Julia? About that later...

If I will install Linux Mint, I start the Live-Disk/Stick in a Live Session, and install my System, and everything is fine or not? No I have a lot of Stuff installed that I NEVER use, I have Applications that I directly replace.... but for common Users they will, like in Windows 7 (for example) use the Stuff installed automatic! the System of this Installation System has stolen a part of the prised open-source freedom!

In the Linux World we have some similar Application, and when I install my system, I will made my own decision which application I use, like
F-Spot or Shotwell
Gimp or Pinta
Rhythmbox or Banshee
Firefox or Chrome
....

and what about the application I never use? Do gwibber need to be installed when after I uninstall it directly....

I understand that for a live-disk a choice for a set of application need to be made, but for user that know which application they will use a Installer that give more choices would be great.

For the moment I take more time to install and uninstall new stuff on a fresh-Linux Installation, than I take in a fresh Windows 7 Installation.
After I have finished my personal Mint Installation, I have made so many changes in my choice of applications, that I even do not know if I can say: I use Linux Mint Julia, or my own personal Derivate!!

From that Perspective, Linux is not better than Windows, but I hope that in a future this point can be improved, perhaps with the Linux Mint Live Installer in the Debian Edition

how do you think about this Problem?
Sorry for my BAD English!!

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tdockery97
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by tdockery97 »

With the size of HDD's today, I really am not concerned with the extra apps that I don't/won't use. But for those who need the option, it might be nice if there were a netinstall version so that only those apps they want will end up on their system. I just don't know if a large enough segment of the users would want that kind of option to make it worth developing.
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craig10x
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by craig10x »

You don't really need to waste your time uninstalling programs you don't think you are going to use in any linux distro because linux distros don't put on a lot of junk programs like windows does that tends to slow down your computer...

It's an old "windows habit" that you need to break :wink:

The programs you won't use will not slow anything down, nor will you see much, if any improvement in removing a lot of stuff so best thing to do is simply use the programs in there that you want and add on whatever additional programs that you would like to use, that isn't installed by default on the particular linux distribution you are using...in this case of course, Linux Mint...

Linux is a unix based system and unlike windows is very fast and efficient...so just enjoy and don't fret about it..next time you install a system like mint, just leave it alone :)

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by Bolle1961 »

download a minimal install iso of ubuntu
make a command line install
then install the packages you want
for typical Mint packages, replace the ubuntu sources.list by a Mint sources.list
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by jesica »

:lol:
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Happy apt-get-ing!


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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by willie42 »

knuckles, you are missing the whole point I think. The thing the Linux is about for me is not about what comes installed and what don't and so on. Its the Freedom you have to remove what you don't want to keep what you do.... you don't have to remove stuff or add anything. Freedom is what Linux is all about at least for me.
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knuckles
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by knuckles »

Yes Linux has a lot more freedom than Windows, and yes I know that more installed applications will not really slow down the system as Windows do it. I know that in Linux I can remove everything, not as in Windows where Applications like IE are burned deep in the system and because all of that reasons I use LINUX as main System (Windows only for Games). But Mint is not perfect to, have you already tried to uninstall Firefox completely? It is possible but by far not user-friendly.

But I like a little nice and clean System, without .config folders that I never need, Start-menus with application my mouse cursor never touch, and regular Updates for applications I never use... So in some way I enjoy to make my custom Linux everything a new Mint Version is released but from the other Side I think with a better Installer, that give advance possibility, it could save a lot of work.
A netinstall with a nice Gui, inspired from the Possibility's that for Ubuntu-tweak has (choice of application, ppa's...) I would be very very happy. Such a netinstall has from the other side the advantages that only the last packages are installed, and after the first start of the system we do not need to update a packet of packages...

When I say Linux became more like Windows, with that I do not mean that Linux become worse, the *nix System is great, but the trend, hype, or how you will it call, start to become worse in my opinion. How can I explain me, that you do not misunderstand me, mmh, in the past we had no Live-Systems, so the development was, to make the Installer, so User-Friendly as possible, give the Person that install the system all the comfort needed to create a nice Linuxsystem. Today it is more: here is the Live-system, you like it? than copy&past it on you drive and finish! And because of that we become other problems, for Example a new version Ubuntu is released, 2 Days Later 10 new Distros appear with Personal Configuration, without system changes, same repos 1000% Ubuntu, only custom theme, custom application --> finish is the new ow quality Ultimate Linux Distro!

Linux Mint is not on that rail, because here we have, own made application and tools, own supplement repos and more, here we can speak from an very well made Distro based on Ubuntu. But sorry for that words, there is so many bulls**t out there, that new Users lost the overview.

And because of that, I hope in the futures the popular Distros, will develop us better ways to install a system that every user can install it the way he wan't it, as result I hope less low quality Distros and a better Overview for all the new Linux Users. I got never really happy wiht an installed opensuse system, but they have one of the best installers out there.
Sorry for my BAD English!!

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by trinux »

I don't think it's correct to say that linux is becoming bloated like windows, there are too many distros for blanket statements like that to work. If you're looking for a distro that only has the programs you want, and with all kinds of options during install, you probably want something like Arch, or Gentoo, that's not really what Mint is about. Mint is about being as user friendly and elegant looking as possible, and that means including apps that power users may find unnecessary. On the other hand, I can give my 63 year old mother a clean install and without any tweaks she is good to go, and I can also use it for myself with a few tweaks. I don't think that's bloat, I think that's versatility. As other posters have said, there aren't really any performance benefits to removing the programs you don't use, the only real benefit is a cleaner looking menu which may or may not matter to you.

trinux

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by Elisa »

knuckles wrote:...From that Perspective, Linux is not better than Windows...
Are you cold or a nut...?? :roll:
Linux/Unix is about freedom, Windows about slavery.

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by linuxviolin »

I think knuckles is not quite wrong... Btw, some distributions make a somewhat "basic" install and provide the ability to add repos and/or packages or even give you the choice to customize the installation... Of course this is a choice which is useful just for advanced people but it's a good choice. :idea:

tdockery97, I disagree with you. The size of HD is unimportant here. Why keep on your system useless, for you, apps or apps you never use? This is just stupid. Plus, these are the apps but often they have also dependencies and sometimes many/several. Why I would want keeping on my system all these? To make nice? Pfff

craig10x, here too the problem is not if "linux distros don't put on a lot of junk programs like windows does that tends to slow down your computer" or if they do. The "problem" is just the same that above.

Oh, and Linux is not Unix but an Unix-like operating system as also BSD descendants (FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD) and GNU.
willie42 wrote:knuckles, you are missing the whole point I think. The thing the Linux is about for me is not about what comes installed and what don't and so on. Its the Freedom you have to remove what you don't want to keep what you do.... you don't have to remove stuff or add anything. Freedom is what Linux is all about at least for me.
I hope you're joking. By this, you show it's you who misses "the whole point" of the knuckles post. :roll:
knuckles wrote:I got never really happy wiht an installed opensuse system, but they have one of the best installers out there.
Hmm, OpenSUSE? Well, for me and as I said elsewhere, Fedora (Red Hat) has one of the best, if not the best, Linux installer, with the option to customize and tweak your installed software before installation. It’s something Ubuntu should really consider offering. You can even encrypt the system quite easily, just a box to check...
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by grey1960envoy »

I have only been using a computer for a little over 4 years now (I'm 52 BTW) and I have to say that the way Mint is set up it handles everything I want or need, there are a bunch of apps I don't need but they are not slowing things down so I don't care so I leave them on in case I do at some point.It is not as if I have to worry about 1GB of room on my HDD if they even take that much up. If this is a reason to gripe then by all means do try Gentoo or some other distro more to your liking after all that is what freedom is all about is it not :?: :roll: :roll: :!:
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by Murdock »

8 gigs will cover anything you desire.
A separate / home seals the deal.
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by technoferret »

Reading this thread it appears to me that both the OP and some of those replying do not fully grasp what IN MY OPINION are the aims of LinuxMint.

In my opinion, from his post, knuckles has become proficient enough with Linux to make LM redundant to his needs, he really should be using Suse, RedHat or even Slackware if he feels the need for so much control over what and what isn't installed. He is appearing to say "I like what it looks like but I don't like the choice of programs installed so will you alter it just to suit me". If this is the case he should do a custom install of RedHat and then apply the Mint theme. This would give him what he appears to be looking for.

Mint, IMHO, is trying to create a distro that is,
A. Easy to install,
B. Does MOST things any average home or SO user would want and runs fast on low end hardware,
C. Is elegant to look at and easy and intuitive to use,
D. is resilient to the destructive efforts of viruses, malware AND the average user.

and Clem and Co are doing a stunning job.
OK, it doesn't do EVERYTHING I want (but then when did a windows install do everything). But after installing Scribus, Picasa, Gambas and Inkscape (each with 1 click, no cost AND no reboots) it fulfills my needs.
Yes, there may be better, more powerful programs available BUT the point is 'It does what I need'. If I want it to do more then 'I' have to spend 'MY TIME' making it what 'I' want. It's MY choice.
I have put Mint9 on quite a few friends computers after Windows got so corrupted that they wouldn't even boot and only 1 person has asked for me to try and get windows back on their system, ALL the rest are using LM9 and to be honest I think most of them think it's 'just a new version of Windows', thus proving that what I think 'are the aims of Mint' is actually succeeding.

If you want a system with YOUR choice of programs then BUILD IT YOURSELF, thats what Linux is all about. If you want a quick, easy, usable computer that does most of what you want with the minimum of effort on your side then you can't beat LinuxMint, (just dont expect it to be everything to every man)

Dave,
PS bring on the flames LOL

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grey1960envoy
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by grey1960envoy »

technoferret wrote:Reading this thread it appears to me that both the OP and some of those replying do not fully grasp what IN MY OPINION are the aims of LinuxMint.

In my opinion, from his post, knuckles has become proficient enough with Linux to make LM redundant to his needs, he really should be using Suse, RedHat or even Slackware if he feels the need for so much control over what and what isn't installed. He is appearing to say "I like what it looks like but I don't like the choice of programs installed so will you alter it just to suit me". If this is the case he should do a custom install of RedHat and then apply the Mint theme. This would give him what he appears to be looking for.

Mint, IMHO, is trying to create a distro that is,
A. Easy to install,
B. Does MOST things any average home or SO user would want and runs fast on low end hardware,
C. Is elegant to look at and easy and intuitive to use,
D. is resilient to the destructive efforts of viruses, malware AND the average user.

and Clem and Co are doing a stunning job.
OK, it doesn't do EVERYTHING I want (but then when did a windows install do everything). But after installing Scribus, Picasa, Gambas and Inkscape (each with 1 click, no cost AND no reboots) it fulfills my needs.
Yes, there may be better, more powerful programs available BUT the point is 'It does what I need'. If I want it to do more then 'I' have to spend 'MY TIME' making it what 'I' want. It's MY choice.
I have put Mint9 on quite a few friends computers after Windows got so corrupted that they wouldn't even boot and only 1 person has asked for me to try and get windows back on their system, ALL the rest are using LM9 and to be honest I think most of them think it's 'just a new version of Windows', thus proving that what I think 'are the aims of Mint' is actually succeeding.

If you want a system with YOUR choice of programs then BUILD IT YOURSELF, thats what Linux is all about. If you want a quick, easy, usable computer that does most of what you want with the minimum of effort on your side then you can't beat LinuxMint, (just dont expect it to be everything to every man)

Dave,
PS bring on the flames LOL
+both thumbs up :D :D :D
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by vrkalak »

Linux become more like Windows! . . . but . . . I thought 'we' wanted an OS that works ?!?! :lol:
technoferret wrote:Mint, IMHO, is trying to create a distro that is,
A. Easy to install,
B. Does MOST things any average home or SO user would want and runs fast on low end hardware,
C. Is elegant to look at and easy and intuitive to use,
D. is resilient to the destructive efforts of viruses, malware AND the average user.
^ This works!!
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by unexistance »

Hi,

I somewhat felt the same way, but
For the moment I take more time to install and uninstall new stuff on a fresh-Linux Installation
You can automate the uninstall + installation & run it at a time you're not using the system (no need for your intervention).
than I take in a fresh Windows 7 Installation.
Fresh win7 installation is not very useful, you'll need time to download, install & setup all the nice 3rd party apps


Anyway, I do felt it's a bit bloated, with 100+ process running (ps -ef command) after initial login, with 100MB+ idle memory usage.
But that's another story :D

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by knuckles »

First I accept all of your opinions, but perhaps some of you misunderstand me, or it is only because my bad English writing mmh...

The Problem that is not only Ubuntu/Mint concerned. As old openSuse User, I keep every day an eye on it, but here to, the installer become no more the attentions than before the Live-Systems. I have the feeling that in General the Distros try to make there Systems so easy as Possible that (sorry for that word) every noob can handle Linux. And on the way of making it more and more simple they take away some very useful Options, used from advance Users (I do not even know, If I'm already an advance User...)

Now I exaggerate a lot, when I say: Apple and Microsoft give Users Operating Systems and Applications, where the choice to change System Like Stuff is near to impossible, but Very User-Friendly, in some way, it is like Microsoft an Apple think that the User are only Idiots and can't handle advance options. That is one of the reasons why I found the way to Linux (personal I like Opensource but for my daily-use I do not really care if an Application is Opensource or not).
But in some way's (do not forget that I exaggerate a lot), the Linux Distros in general start to become so much idiot-friendly while perhaps not removing the advance configuration possibilities, but hiding them deep in the system.
An example of that simpleness, you can see whit Ubuntu an there next Desktop Unity.

I will not change to an other Distro, I keep Mint, and love it. Not only because of the system, but because of the great community, the developers...

For the moment I maintain my own Log-File were I write all the little stuff that I'm learn from Linux (Mint in general), while using it. I configure my own Mint-System with reconstructor, so I have an ISO if I need to make a new Installation, or take my system whit me on an USB-Stick. I have found my own solutions for my own needs, but I hope that the developers in the future do not only work for completely beginners, but to for more advance Users.
Sorry for my BAD English!!

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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by grey1960envoy »

knuckles wrote:First I accept all of your opinions, but perhaps some of you misunderstand me, or it is only because my bad English writing mmh...

The Problem that is not only Ubuntu/Mint concerned. As old openSuse User, I keep every day an eye on it, but here to, the installer become no more the attentions than before the Live-Systems. I have the feeling that in General the Distros try to make there Systems so easy as Possible that (sorry for that word) every noob can handle Linux. And on the way of making it more and more simple they take away some very useful Options, used from advance Users (I do not even know, If I'm already an advance User...)

Now I exaggerate a lot, when I say: Apple and Microsoft give Users Operating Systems and Applications, where the choice to change System Like Stuff is near to impossible, but Very User-Friendly, in some way, it is like Microsoft an Apple think that the User are only Idiots and can't handle advance options. That is one of the reasons why I found the way to Linux (personal I like Opensource but for my daily-use I do not really care if an Application is Opensource or not).
But in some way's (do not forget that I exaggerate a lot), much the Linux Distros in general start to become so idiot-friendly while perhaps not removing the advance configuration possibilities, but hiding them deep in the system.
this would be like making the distro too much like M$ or Mac the only thing not there for a M$ clone would be the BSOD :lol:

An example of that simpleness, you can see whit Ubuntu an there next Desktop Unity.

I will not change to an other Distro, I keep Mint, and love it. Not only because of the system, but because of the great community, the developers...

For the moment I maintain my own Log-File were I write all the little stuff that I'm learn from Linux (Mint in general), while using it. I configure my own Mint-System with reconstructor, so I have an ISO if I need to make a new Installation, or take my system whit me on an USB-Stick. I have found my own solutions for my own needs, but I hope that the developers in the future do not only work for completely beginners, but to for more advance Users.
This is why there are so many different distros.
In a perfect world everything has it's place, Linux on my computer, windows on the wall, and M$ in the trash!
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by markcynt »

knuckles wrote:but perhaps some of you misunderstand me,
I think it's more like you misunderstanding Mint than others here misunderstanding you.
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Re: Linux become more like Windows!

Post by NumberSeventeen »

You can go two ways with this.
1: You are getting to much or the wrong programs. You can easily delete them (unlike Windows who makes some programs part of the OS like IE or Live)
2: You must make a choise, if you download a live cd you want to have some programs pre installed. At least i do, and at that point every type of browser is better then not having one.

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