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When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

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linuxviolin
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When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

Everybody knows now here I hate GNOME 3 and I know here it's not a guy from Mint, a "Minter", but this is quite interesting...

Hopefully, Red Hat won’t fire Tom ‘spot’ Callaway, their Fedora Engineering Manager, which is with Red Hat since 2001. After all, his latest rant seems to suggest that he’s hating GNOME3!

GNOME shell:
I’m really trying to be patient with GNOME 3. I remember when I switched from Enlightenment, but I just keep running into really annoying issues.

Issue 1: Multi-monitor support isn’t working right at all. (Bugzilla 695737)
I have a LCD monitor mounted on a stand above my desk at work that is connected to a docking station. I put my Thinkpad T500 into the docking station and use it in combination with the LCD monitors in a vertical configuration. GNOME 3 sees the extra monitor, positions it properly, but won’t let me open windows there or drag existing windows to it. :/

Issue 2: “Applications” noticeably grinds on my disk for several seconds before showing me a list
To be fair, I think I know why this happens:
A) I have a lot of programs installed.
B) It has to open all of their icons and cache them.

I just happen to think that the workflow model there is pretty poor, and the fact that this is slow on first load is a byproduct of that. Perhaps it should have a more reasonable default? Maybe only cache the first screen’s worth of icons? Maybe pre-cache the icons on boot? Maybe put placeholders until the icons can be loaded, so I’m not sitting without any indicator of why there is a ten second delay?

Issue 3: Lack of minimize
I’m sure this makes great UI and I’m just too dumb to understand it, but my screen gets very cluttered, very quickly. Why not leave a minimize button in the title bar for each window? After all, I can still right click the title bar and minimize things, but I only discovered that by accident. (I suspect once I point that out in public, the right click minimize option will disappear too.)

Issue 4: NetworkManager
Oh, NetworkManager, I still love your autoconfiguration magic, but what have they done to your applet? I loved how I could right click you and quickly get to the configuration status, a GUI “ifconfig”. Now I have to go into “Network Settings” and iterate through each possible connection. Also, I can’t figure out how to turn off a specific connection, it seems that unless I go into the “Network Settings” options screen, I can’t just disconnect a wireless connection without disabling wireless altogether. Oh, and when I USB tether my Nexus One, it shows up as an unlabeled “wired” connection.

Issue 5: Lack of clock customization
It took me several minutes of Google searching to discover how to adjust the date so I could see the day of the week along with the month, numeric day, and full time. I still can’t figure out how to get it to show me the year, or the time in other locales (I work with international folks, and the support for other clocks at a click was very very helpful)

Issue 6: Lack of weather
Where did the weather go? I can’t even figure out how to add it.

Issue 7: Lack of sane theming
Editing an XML file to change colors is not sane theming support. I cede that perhaps this is an area that will grow a nice GUI in the future, but ugh. Yes, it could be worse, but it could be a lot better. At a minimum, comments in the XML file would be very nice, as right now, my attempts at improving the theming are pretty hackish.

GNOME, I’m trying to be patient with you. We’ve been pals for a long time now, and I’m not giving up on you yet, but you sure are trying my patience.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

I'm running Fedora 15 with GNOME 3 on my netbook as I type this and I must say I agree with everything the man has to say. So far I've tried Unity, Unity 2D and GNOME 3 on Ubuntu 11.04 Unity 2D on Ubuntu 10.10 and GNOME 3 on Fedora 15, all full installs on my Cr-48 netbook. And compared to GNOME 2.32 I am very disappointed. They all seem to be change for the sake of change not to improve performance or usability. I'm about ready to just say screw GNOME and Unity and switch to Xfce or LXDE.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

JasonLG wrote:I'm running Fedora 15 with GNOME 3 on my netbook as I type this and I must say I agree with everything the man has to say. So far I've tried Unity, Unity 2D and GNOME 3 on Ubuntu 11.04 Unity 2D on Ubuntu 10.10 and GNOME 3 on Fedora 15, all full installs on my Cr-48 netbook. And compared to GNOME 2.32 I am very disappointed. They all seem to be change for the sake of change not to improve performance or usability. I'm about ready to just say screw GNOME and Unity and switch to Xfce or LXDE.
+1 I completely agree with you! Finally someone with some common sense... :D Btw, I have already switched to XFCE since some times, although I am not absolutely fully satisfied but it is the only one that is left. (LXDE is not very good and I hate KDE 4) When I tell you that there is (almost) no more about correct/usable desktops in Linux... :cry:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

linuxviolin wrote:
JasonLG wrote:I'm running Fedora 15 with GNOME 3 on my netbook as I type this and I must say I agree with everything the man has to say. So far I've tried Unity, Unity 2D and GNOME 3 on Ubuntu 11.04 Unity 2D on Ubuntu 10.10 and GNOME 3 on Fedora 15, all full installs on my Cr-48 netbook. And compared to GNOME 2.32 I am very disappointed. They all seem to be change for the sake of change not to improve performance or usability. I'm about ready to just say screw GNOME and Unity and switch to Xfce or LXDE.
+1 I completely agree with you! Finally someone with some common sense... :D Btw, I have already switched to XFCE since some times, although I am not absolutely fully satisfied but it is the only one that is left. (LXDE is not very good and I hate KDE 4) When I tell you that there is (almost) no more about correct/usable desktops in Linux... :cry:
i am downloading Xubuntu 11.04 Beta 2 32bit as I type this. I think I'll give it a try on my netbook. I tried to install the 64bit version but the installer crashes on the 64bit versions of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Lubuntu and Xubuntu every time for me although the Live system works just fine. To test out Ubuntu and Kubuntu 11.04 64bit on my netook I had to install 10.10 and then upgrade through it to 11.04. I realize that 11.04 is a beta but it's due out in like 4 days. Is Mint the only Linux project left that cares about quality?

Back to Xfce. I liked what I saw in the Xubuntu 11.04 LiveCD. Xfce might be my new choice for DE.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

JasonLG wrote:Is Mint the only Linux project left that cares about quality?
Well, maybe yes. But you seem to have tried only some Ubuntu versions and we know all the Ubuntu QA is, er... :roll: Here I have an a little old i386 computer with Fedora 14 i386 XFCE Spin, upgraded with preupgrade from Fedora 13 XFCE Spin. No problems and the upgrade has been a breeze. My main computer is a x86_64, an Intel Core 2 Quad. On it I have Fedora 15 x86_64 XFCE Spin since the Alpha version. No problems. Maybe this can be interesting for you and perhaps, if you want and wish, you could try Fedora... Just a hint. But wait, it's not Mint, so, for codecs etc you'll have to seek and install them yourself. :wink:
JasonLG wrote:Back to Xfce. I liked what I saw in the Xubuntu 11.04 LiveCD. Xfce might be my new choice for DE.
:D
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by thouartsimple »

Debian isn't exactly for me, so if I don't like Gnome 3, I'll just switch to XFCE on Linux Mint 11.
-Nick

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

linuxviolin wrote:
JasonLG wrote:Is Mint the only Linux project left that cares about quality?
Well, maybe yes. But you seem to have tried only some Ubuntu versions and we know all the Ubuntu QA is, er... :roll: Here I have an a little old i386 computer with Fedora 14 i386 XFCE Spin, upgraded with preupgrade from Fedora 13 XFCE Spin. No problems and the upgrade has been a breeze. My main computer is a x86_64, an Intel Core 2 Quad. On it I have Fedora 15 x86_64 XFCE Spin since the Alpha version. No problems. Maybe this can be interesting for you and perhaps, if you want and wish, you could try Fedora... Just a hint. But wait, it's not Mint, so, for codecs etc you'll have to seek and install them yourself. :wink:
JasonLG wrote:Back to Xfce. I liked what I saw in the Xubuntu 11.04 LiveCD. Xfce might be my new choice for DE.
:D
I've tried Fedora 15 and I successfully installed codecs, It wasn't that hard(Google is your friend) and I've tried various other Debian based distros, I just didn't mention them because it didn't seem relevant.

I will say that I don't think I'll be moving from a Debian based distro better the devil you know. I'm just more used to the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint way of doing things.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

thouartsimple wrote:Debian isn't exactly for me, so if I don't like Gnome 3, I'll just switch to XFCE on Linux Mint 11.
You mean GNOME? Debian isn't a DE it's a distro.
Edit: Didn't read this right. I understand what you mean now.
Last edited by JasonLG on Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

JasonLG wrote:I've tried Fedora 15 and I successfully installed codecs, It wasn't that hard(Google is your friend)
Yes, it's quite simple. :)
JasonLG wrote:I will say that I don't think I'll be moving from a Debian based distro better the devil you know. I'm just more used to the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint way of doing things.
OK, no problem, good for you. :)
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

Here is a quite intelligent post From DWW #400, it's the Linux comment of the week:
33 • Gnome developers are having fun and that’s all… (by MacLone on 2011-04-11 16:13:37 GMT from Mexico)

I think Gnome devs are irresponsible. The reason linux exists is because we all want an alternative to OS and pricey licenses. So, if the main idea is to replace windows or mac at your home and/or your work office… then why a so radical change? I mean, if gnome guys were serious about the future of linux they should’t redesigned gnome3 this way because it means “ALL” users needs to begin a new learning curve that might be expensive for the business and hard for the newbies.

What’s Linux for you? is it just for distro hopping? Is it for serious work? what’s your real goal?
Not bad, right? :wink:

P.S.= I have already given it elsewhere in the forum but I guess it has perfectly its place here too...
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

linuxviolin wrote:Here is a quite intelligent post From DWW #400, it's the Linux comment of the week:
33 • Gnome developers are having fun and that’s all… (by MacLone on 2011-04-11 16:13:37 GMT from Mexico)

I think Gnome devs are irresponsible. The reason linux exists is because we all want an alternative to OS and pricey licenses. So, if the main idea is to replace windows or mac at your home and/or your work office… then why a so radical change? I mean, if gnome guys were serious about the future of linux they should’t redesigned gnome3 this way because it means “ALL” users needs to begin a new learning curve that might be expensive for the business and hard for the newbies.

What’s Linux for you? is it just for distro hopping? Is it for serious work? what’s your real goal?
Not bad, right? :wink:

P.S.= I have already given it elsewhere in the forum but I guess it has perfectly its place here too...
I agree. One of the reasons that the Windows/Mac style desktop metaphor has existed so long is that it makes sense and people are used to it. GNOME seems to have been rewritten purely for the sake of change, not to address any real issues. In fact to me GNOME 3 creates more usability issues then it solves. I used GNOME 3 for a week and I can't think of one single time where I thought to myself "gee this is easier in GNOME 3." I really wish they would have spent the past 2 years fixing bugs, cleaning up code and making gnome 2.x faster. It would have been time better spent. Instead the GNOME devs ignored common sense and general user consensus and in a case tunnel vision produced GNOME 3. Radically different, yes... More usable, no. Congratulations, 2 years work for alpha software.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by tdockery97 »

I'm afraid I have to totally agree with most of the above statements regarding Gnome 3. While I don't think it's the Devil in disguise, I think it puts forth totally unnecessary changes to a system that was not broken to start with. I will keep my good old-fashioned Gnome 2.x desktop on LMDE for the next couple of years until it must go away. And I've also moved to a dual-boot with PCLinuxOS KDE, which I am thoroughly enjoying. I'm finally feeling like I can stop looking for DE alternatives and start using my computer.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

tdockery97 wrote:I'm afraid I have to totally agree with most of the above statements regarding Gnome 3. While I don't think it's the Devil in disguise, I think it puts forth totally unnecessary changes to a system that was not broken to start with. I will keep my good old-fashioned Gnome 2.x desktop on LMDE for the next couple of years until it must go away. And I've also moved to a dual-boot with PCLinuxOS KDE, which I am thoroughly enjoying. I'm finally feeling like I can stop looking for DE alternatives and start using my computer.
I'm not a huge fan of KDE but I've been meaning to checkout the GNOME spin. I know it's like comparing apples to oranges but from I've heard PCLinuxOS uses the Brain rainbows Scheduler(sorry for the language but that's what it's called) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_rainbows_Scheduler it's suppose to be faster then the default scheduler. Do you notice a difference?
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by vincent »

JasonLG wrote:I've heard PCLinuxOS uses the Brain ^^^^ Scheduler(sorry for the language but that's what it's called) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_rainbows_Scheduler it's suppose to be faster then the default scheduler. Do you notice a difference?
Liquorix recently switched to using BFS by default, but I wouldn't have realized that had I not looked at the changelog, and grep'ed my kernel's config to see that BFS is actually being used. To be honest, I really haven't noticed any differences in latency or responsiveness.

As for Gnome 3, I've given the OpenSUSE Gnome 3 Live CD a spin and concluded that at present, I'd rather stick with Gnome 2. I'm a guy that loves messing around with cutting-edge/bleeding-edge software, but I'd rather give Gnome 3 a chance to mature (just look at how much KDE has stabilized from 4.0 -> 4.6).
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by JasonLG »

vincent wrote:
JasonLG wrote:I've heard PCLinuxOS uses the Brain ^^^^ Scheduler(sorry for the language but that's what it's called) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_rainbows_Scheduler it's suppose to be faster then the default scheduler. Do you notice a difference?
Liquorix recently switched to using BFS by default, but I wouldn't have realized that had I not looked at the changelog, and grep'ed my kernel's config to see that BFS is actually being used. To be honest, I really haven't noticed any differences in latency or responsiveness.

As for Gnome 3, I've given the OpenSUSE Gnome 3 Live CD a spin and concluded that at present, I'd rather stick with Gnome 2. I'm a guy that loves messing around with cutting-edge/bleeding-edge software, but I'd rather give Gnome 3 a chance to mature (just look at how much KDE has stabilized from 4.0 -> 4.6).
Good to know. I've tried the noop and deadline schedulers on my netbook that has a SSD and I didn't notice any difference from cfq.

In GNOME time 3.0 -> 3.6 is 3 years. I hope it doesn't take that long to be as usable as 2.32.

I need to win the lottery so I can pay some devs to fork 2.32. :lol:

Just an observation, but has anyone read anything really saying that GNOME 3 is any good that wasn't written by a GNOME dev or GNOME it's self? I think we have another KDE 4 on our hands.
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

In fact, even KDE 4, I hate it yet, is not a so great change after KDE 3... At the contrary to the GNOME with their cra*** GNOME 3. :evil:
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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by linuxviolin »

If you want other reasons why GNOME 3 is cr**, read on:
k3rnel.net: Why I'm Sick and Tired of Gnome Shell:
I’ve been using Gnome Shell (Gnome 3) exclusively for 2 weeks today, and while I do have a few good words to say about it… today’s the day I’m switching to KDE once and for all.

Gnome Shell is Defective By Design, and I’m here to tell you why.

NetworkManager […]

And before you tell me it’s an unfinished product, these decisions are there by design, and as far as I know, I can’t right click anything to prompt for more options.

Alt Tab vs Alt | […]

Trying to Alt | between the windows is an absolute nightmare. […]

One quick way to fix this? Bring back the old Task Switcher, at the bottom of the screen. Where it’s been the past 10 or so years.

Add programs to the menu […]

Notification Area should be visible *always*

The notification area does not do its job. If you missed the notification, it hides and does not remind you of a missed notifications. […]

Right Click on Desktop Can’t change the Wallpaper […]

I really miss TimeZones […]

Defaults are just insane […]

Battery Monitor annoyance […]

Closing Words

Gnome’s “Simplicity” is down right insulting to a computer enthusiast. It makes it impossible to do simple tasks that used to flow naturally, and it’s made dozens of bizarre “design decisions”, like hiding Power Off behind the “Alt” key.

The lack of a taskbar, and hiding the notification area are extremely annoying, and the only reason I lasted this long is because I don’t have time to switch from Desktop-to-Desktop mid-week.

I think KDE is done re-installing. Good riddance, Gnome 3.
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." (Leonardo da Vinci)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by flygon250 »

thouartsimple wrote:Debian isn't exactly for me, so if I don't like Gnome 3, I'll just switch to XFCE on Linux Mint 11.
Linux Mint Xfce is based off Debian, though.

If Debian doesn't suit you because of the outdated packages in Stable, Mint Xfce uses Debian's "testing" repository, which is constantly updated with new packages coming through from Unstable, so you won't have outdated software like you do with Debian Stable, although you will be behind during the package "freeze" that happens before a new Debian Stable release. It also means that you will be running a rolling-release distro, so you won't have to reinstall/upgrade every 6 months, but also means that you may occasionally get a breakage during an update as a trade-off.

If that doesn't suit you, then I guess you could either install the LXDE edition of Mint 11, or install Xubuntu 11.04 and add the Mint 11 repositories manually.

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by trollboy »

I'm not normally a hater - not even of Microsoft but Gnome shell is just plain rubbish and Unity is not much better. Way to take the almost perfect desktop environment and completely destroy it guys! I do hope that by the time 3.6 comes out it has stabilised and improved as much as KDE had by 4.6

I gave Gnome Shell a week to see if I could adapt and I gave Unity 3 days. Now if only I could get that time back.
Gnome is dead. Long live XFCE

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Re: When the Fedora Engineering Manager hates GNOME3…

Post by michaelzap »

Xfce is a great option for folks who don't want to move to the new Gnome Shell/Unity DE style. I run Crunchbang Xfce on my main system and it flies and I get a lot of work done. Linux Mint Xfce is also a great choice because it's also Debian-based (= way faster and much less cruft) but uses the testing repos so you have newer software (not that changing your repos is hard).

But I think that Gnome Shell is the future, and personally I'm OK with that. I'm typing this from Gnome Shell, actually (I added the Debian experimental repos and installed it, and it's been pretty well-behaved considering the unfinished nature of the packages). I agree with people's concerns about it not being customizable enough and that it's designed to work well for a certain subset of users to the exclusion of others, but it will be extended and improved quickly and in the end I think most folks will be pretty happy with it.

For those who will never like Gnome Shell, there's Xfce, KDE, and a number of other options.

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