What is happening to MInt

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holesovice
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What is happening to MInt

Post by holesovice »

What direction is Mint going?
Is Mint heading away from the users and towards the developers.

I moved away from Ubuntu main a couple of years ago after being told in the Ubuntu forums that since I use my computer for work/job/company/business (i.e. very mission critical) I should not use Ubuntu main because it is too unstable. I found out the hard way one day after a crappy update!

So after some research I found Mint. It seems to be just the thing. Solid, stable and dependable.

After two or more years of constant use the OS started to show signs of wear. And little bits were not quite right. So it was time for a reinstall...
I had Mint 10 and tried 12.
Most of 12 worked but not all.
It works out of the box, with full multimedia support and is extremely easy to use.
No. Not really
Gnome 3 is horrid. Why is this mess being forced on the community? What is this windows Vista?

I have had to move back to Mint 11. Compiz does not work
Compiz Fusion

If you experience problems with the window manager (with window borders, focus or mouse clicks) launch "Fusion Icon" from the menu, and use the Fusion tray icon to switch your window manager to "Metacity".

Upstream regressions affect the "Cube" plugin in particular. It is recommended not to activate this plugin in Linux Mint 11.
So
It works out of the box, with full multimedia support and is extremely easy to use.
Is untrue. Sorry but. I like Compiz and find it very useful for my work.

So today I find myself moving to Mint 10. Mid work week. And with 3 months support left on Mint 10. When 11 is still not fully up and running?
Compiz Fusion

If you experience problems with the window manager (with window borders, focus or mouse clicks) launch "Fusion Icon" from the menu, and use the Fusion tray icon to switch your window manager to "Metacity".

Upstream regressions affect the "Cube" plugin in particular. It is recommended not to activate this plugin in Linux Mint 11.
And yet developers are pushing Gnome 3. While Mint 11 is not fully working. Login does not fully work. Metacity drop settings each time I log out + some other small bits and pieces.

So after this rant (sorry). And I before I start another install.
Can anyone please suggest a linux that is not going to be using Gnome 3?
My request would be for something like Windows 3.1 For something that is basic and works. I need the OS to be able to handle inkskape, recognise an external HD. The OS would need to be able to work with a HP printer scanner.
If the OS would take Compiz I would be happy.

Suggestions gratefully received and sorry for the rant but....

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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by cudayne »

If you like Gnome an want too use a Linux with Gnome desktop your going too have too get use too Gnome 3 end of story. Now mint developers are working on there own thing call cinnamon witch looks good.
Otherwise your going too have too find a desktop you like. Virtual box will help with this.

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Oscar799
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Re: What is happening to MInt

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Pilosopong Tasyo
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by Pilosopong Tasyo »

Why force yourself to upgrade when there's an LTS version? Latest doesn't always necessarily mean greatest. Mint 9 is quite solid, stable and reliable for a lot of users (me being one of them). It's supported well until next year (support ends on the same date as that of Mint 12), and uses Gnome 2.3.
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xenopeek
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by xenopeek »

holesovice wrote:And yet developers are pushing Gnome 3. ...

Can anyone please suggest a linux that is not going to be using Gnome 3?
I can understand your frustration with things not working out of the box as you would want them to. However, the Linux Mint team is most certainly not pushing only Gnome 3. Linux Mint is about choice! You have the choice of Gnome 3 / MATE (fork of Gnome 2) / Cinnamon (fork of Gnome 3), KDE, and LXDE on the Ubuntu based Linux Mint main edition. And those are just the desktop environments you can get pre-installed. In addition, you can install any other desktop environment you want!

MATE is actively being support, and is a way forward for those preferring the Gnome 2 experience (as Gnome 2 is no longer supported by the Gnome developers). You can also consider XFCE, another supported desktop environment that has a high "Gnome 2" like experience. XFCE you can install on top of any existing Linux Mint main edition. (Linux Mint Debian Edition comes with a different selection of pre-installed desktop environments.)

In short; nobody is pushing you to use Gnome 3. There are alternatives, even Gnome 2 in the MATE fork. I don't know of any distro that isn't moving away from Gnome 2 (or doing so shortly). Either fully abandoning Gnome 2, or offering MATE as its de facto replacement. The Linux Mint team were one of the first to get onboard with MATE and offer it in the default edition, as a large base of the community favors Gnome 2. But Gnome 2 is dead, so long live MATE! :wink:
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MALsPa
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by MALsPa »

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:I can understand your frustration with things not working out of the box as you would want them to. However, the Linux Mint team is most certainly not pushing only Gnome 3. Linux Mint is about choice! You have the choice of Gnome 3 / MATE (fork of Gnome 2) / Cinnamon (fork of Gnome 3), KDE, and LXDE on the Ubuntu based Linux Mint main edition. And those are just the desktop environments you can get pre-installed. In addition, you can install any other desktop environment you want!
Yep. Even when the main Mint version still came with GNOME 2, it was no big deal for me to add Xfce or KDE or Fluxbox and use one of those instead. I don't really reject a distro, or choose a distro, solely because of its default desktop environment. With just about any distro out there, you can use any DE or WM you want to use.

holesovice
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by holesovice »

Thank you for the suggestions

Right now Mint 11 is not holding up to expectations.... Sorry.

No auto login. Cannot cancel desktop notifications (more often than not, they are not working right now for some reason), compiz does not work.
Notifications at bottom of screen disappear when I log in/out. Had to reinstall to remove Evolution due serious problems and now am having to use Thunderbird and other things I have no got to yet...

Choices are fine.
I need choices, as I cannot use Mint 12, choice is to use Mint 11 with parts missing.

I am NOT having a go at the developers. I love Linux and appreciate the developers work. But I tried 12 and I tried Ubuntu on my netbook with Gnome 3 as well.
Gnome 3 is NOT for me. If I wanted an Apple I would buy one.
Having to load Gnome 3 and use a workaround to get back to a usable system is not for me. It is not what I am interested in.
This is why I moved to Mint in the first place. Gnome 2 and a stable usable system.

Sorry but...
I will probably try a full KDE OS and not KDE on top of Gnome 3.
At this rate I will be going back to Windows.
Strong words maybe but...

I DID like Windows 3.1 and still miss it.
All I want is a basic OS.
Then I will add what I want to it. Nowadays everyone is trying to be everything to everyone at the same time.
Why?

How about an OS that is bare bones and you can add what they want?
I need a browser. Inkscape (sometimes) and an mp3 player/radio and more than anything email. I run a company off email.


And as for my (Android) phone, I use only 1/10th of what it can do. My next phone will probably be one of those granny phones. The ones with the big buttons that can only make phone calls. :D
Maybe I am showing my age? But .... like I say I would like a bare bones OS and then to add the parts.
I do not have time to learn to compile (?) my own kernel. (if that is the correct phrase)

And at the end of day I am going to do everything I can to avoid Gnome 3

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xenopeek
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by xenopeek »

Some clarification on my earlier points;

- Linux Mint 12 KDE is a separate Linux Mint 12 release, it is not "on top of Gnome 3", it is a pure KDE release... It is almost released, currently available as RC. (Read more: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1919)

- Linux Mint 12 gives you choice at login screen to run either Gnome 3 (which you don't want), or the Gnome 2 MATE (which you do want). So, Gnome 2 was already on your system, you just had to pick it... (Read more: http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_lisa_whatsnew.php#mate)
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Aging Technogeek
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by Aging Technogeek »

If you want a truly bare bones OS, try Arch Linux or Gentoo.

Another possibility is Tiny Core. From the Tiny Core home page http://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/welcome.html
TinyCore is simply the kernel + core.gz + Xvesa.tcz|Xorg.tcz + Xprogs +fltk-1.10.tcz + (user's choice of Window Manager) + wbar.tcz
You must add whatever you need to make a functional OS, from a web browser to an office suite.
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bimsebasse
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by bimsebasse »

Gnome 3 is horrid. Why is this mess being forced on the community? What is this windows Vista?
Gnome 2 is not an option. Mint either "forces" Gnome 3 on the community, sticks with a discontinued Gnome 2 (again, not an option) or leaves Gnome.

It would prevent a lot of unnecessary rants if users took time to understand what in Mint the Mint devs have control over and what is upstream and basically out of their hands save a bit of patching.
Thank you for this thread. That’s all I can say. You most definitely have made this forum into something special. You clearly know what you are doing, you’ve covered so many bases. Thanks!

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MALsPa
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by MALsPa »

bimsebasse wrote:It would prevent a lot of unnecessary rants if users took time to understand what in Mint the Mint devs have control over and what is upstream and basically out of their hands save a bit of patching.
Some people just prefer to rant.

holesovice
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by holesovice »

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:Some clarification on my earlier points;

- Linux Mint 12 KDE is a separate Linux Mint 12 release, it is not "on top of Gnome 3", it is a pure KDE release... It is almost released, currently available as RC. (Read more: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1919)

- Linux Mint 12 gives you choice at login screen to run either Gnome 3 (which you don't want), or the Gnome 2 MATE (which you do want). So, Gnome 2 was already on your system, you just had to pick it... (Read more: http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_lisa_whatsnew.php#mate)
There are some people who use LInux that are short of time...
Sorry but that is a reality. I do appreciate your help. But...
12 KDE is not released yet.
12 login screen allows me to login but does not fully work on this PC same in 11.
I cannot use autologin and lost the whole GUI(?) at least once and had to untie that what was stressful. :(

!2 did not "take" on my system. Some major pieces did not work and I jumped "back to 11" as fast as I could, only to find problems with 11. :?
Aging Technogeek wrote:If you want a truly bare bones OS, try Arch Linux or Gentoo.

Another possibility is Tiny Core. From the Tiny Core home page http://distro.ibiblio.org/tinycorelinux/welcome.html
TinyCore is simply the kernel + core.gz + Xvesa.tcz|Xorg.tcz + Xprogs +fltk-1.10.tcz + (user's choice of Window Manager) + wbar.tcz
You must add whatever you need to make a functional OS, from a web browser to an office suite.
Thank you I will take a look.
bimsebasse wrote:
Gnome 3 is horrid. Why is this mess being forced on the community? What is this windows Vista?
Gnome 2 is not an option. Mint either "forces" Gnome 3 on the community, sticks with a discontinued Gnome 2 (again, not an option) or leaves Gnome.

It would prevent a lot of unnecessary rants if users took time to understand what in Mint the Mint devs have control over and what is upstream and basically out of their hands save a bit of patching.
True.
If no one rants what is next on the list after Gnome 3?
We should just say thank you? And never raise our voices in dissent? If no one complained we would all use windows. Because it is there.
Personally I recommend that more people raise their voices against this Gnome 3 thing.
Am not sure of this history and politics of Gnome 3. But i understand that it was pushed by Mr. Shuttleorth and his closed shop.
Why?

Is this really where Linux should be going?
Have some Microsoft billionaire deciding what people want?
MALsPa wrote:
bimsebasse wrote:It would prevent a lot of unnecessary rants if users took time to understand what in Mint the Mint devs have control over and what is upstream and basically out of their hands save a bit of patching.
Some people just prefer to rant.
Ah. So this is peoples fault? Gnome 3 is the users fault? Because we do not have time to understand the changes to Gnome 3?
This is NOT about the devs...
I do not have time to rant properly. But part of this is a rant. What the hell is Gnome 3 FOR? What is it actually for?
Does it help with work flow?
Does it help people use their computer? Which is at the end of the what I want when I switch on the large black box on my desk. A working OS.
It is not a lot to expect. No?
The devs do a great job that I cannot even pretend to understand.
I repeat this is not about the devs. But gnome 3 is not a flop, that does not work. It is something that should not have happened in the first place and if it DID. Should it not have been a fork of its own?
Some thing like Gnome 2. With a fork of Gnome 3?
And then when people rave about what a cool new system it is. How wonderful it is and how they cannot live without it. And when the majority of users are asking it...then maybe it could be used.
But just to dump it on the community from a closed shop by a closed somewhat secretive community?

Sorry I do not have more time for this. I really have to get back to work.
Like I say: all I want is a working OS. I would like boring! Really, really boring
IF I wanted thrills and spills I would step away from the computer and go join a circus.


Some of us simply want something that switches on and works.
I do NOT intend to be rude.

I just simply do not have time for this and at this rate, Windows is really starting to be a considered option, especially now that they are starting to sell an OS without all the bundled crap.
I truly dislike windows. But I am looking for something that makes my life easier. NOT harder.
Maybe that is my fault?
Wanting a computer for work? :(

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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by pluraldave »

holesovice wrote:!2 did not "take" on my system. Some major pieces did not work and I jumped "back to 11" as fast as I could, only to find problems with 11. :?
...
Personally I recommend that more people raise their voices against this Gnome 3 thing.
Judging by your support posts you used Mint 12 for less than 24 hours, during which time you had no access to your data and yet you are passing judgement on "Gnome 3". Moreover, the issues you appear to have experienced are not "normal" Mint 12 issues and indicate that somewhere in the process of downloading, writing to cd/dvd/usb and installing the system was corrupted and needed starting over.
holesovice wrote:Am not sure of this history and politics of Gnome 3. But i understand that it was pushed by Mr. Shuttleorth and his closed shop.
Mark Shuttleworth has nothing to do with Gnome. Ultimately he is responsible for the Unity shell, but Unity is not a component of either Gnome 3 or Linux Mint.

holesovice wrote:Ah. So this is peoples fault? Gnome 3 is the users fault? Because we do not have time to understand the changes to Gnome 3?
It is your fault if you installed a system without first understanding the changes it would bring. Usually when people complain about "Gnome 3" they are complaining about Gnome-shell, but in your case it seems to be just as much about a broken install, which isn't the case for the majority of users. Are the problems you found Gnome 3's fault? Not being able to mount usb devices could be a Nautilus (G3) issue or it could have been something deeper in the system. Login issues at with lightdm (not a component of gnome 3) aren't gnome 3 failures. Then you start talking about issues with Mint 11, which doesn't even have gnome 3.

holesovice wrote:Does it help with work flow?
Assuming you're talking about Gnome-shell here then in my experience, yes. It takes a while to break old habits but once you do there's no problem with it.
holesovice wrote:Does it help people use their computer? Which is at the end of the what I want when I switch on the large black box on my desk. A working OS.
Mint 12/Gnome 3 does provide a working OS for the majority of installs. It may not work in the exact manner people are used to but it does work. Additional issues like not being able to read usb devices are not normal and Mint 12 would not have been released with such an issue.
holesovice wrote:But just to dump it on the community from a closed shop by a closed somewhat secretive community?
Gnome 3/Gnome-Shell has not been developed in secret. Development of Gnome 3/Gnome-Shell has been regularly reported in Linux news for the last 3 years with development snapshots of Gnome-Shell readily available in the repositories of at least Linux Mint 9/10/11. The fact that you were unaware of the upcoming changes is not the Gnome team's fault.
holesovice wrote:Like I say: all I want is a working OS. I would like boring! Really, really boring
I would suggest Debian stable with XFCE. Debian stable will give you the system stability while the XFCE team are unlikely to make any major change to the traditional desktop. If you're feeling adventurous you could try the XFCE variant of LMDE tracking "latest"... just need those update packs to start coming in more regularly.
holesovice wrote:Some of us simply want something that switches on and works.
I think pretty much everyone wants that. It's what I want and it's what I've got, with Gnome 3 believe it or not (but Debian rather than Ubuntu based).

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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by ej64 »

@holesovice: I see your point. And I've made similar experiences with LM12/Gnome3 (I've an installation on an usb stick for testing purposes). While I'm starting to like Gnome3 it's far from stable atm.

If KDE is an option, try Kubuntu. Though I've never been a fan of Ubuntu or KDE I have to admit it's maturing lately. It's really stable and fast now. (LM12 KDE RC should be as stable as Kubuntu, too -- it's based on Kubuntu with just some Mint like modifications on top).

An alternative is XFCE, I agree completely with pluraldave. XFCE looks and feels much like Gnome2 and is rock stable. If you're not running the latest hardware use Debian XFCE. But if your machine is a new one with a Core i for instance, I'ld recommend something newer. Xubuntu isn't bad either.
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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by Terryphi »

holesovice wrote: Can anyone please suggest a linux that is not going to be using Gnome 3?.
I sympathize with what you say. Personally, I am going to stick with Mint 9 until its end of life because I am very happy with it.

To answer your question I suggest you look at CentOS http://www.centos.org/ . The latest version uses Gnome 2 and will be supported by upgrades for 7 years. I have tried the live-cd and I was impressed with its look and stability. The only downside is that it uses rpm packaging rather than the more familiar deb. From a quick glance it seems that some popular multimedia codecs are not available in the repository and it would be necessary to source them from elsewhere.
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Re: What is happening to MInt

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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by MALsPa »

Terryphi wrote:
holesovice wrote: Can anyone please suggest a linux that is not going to be using Gnome 3?.
I sympathize with what you say. Personally, I am going to stick with Mint 9 until its end of life because I am very happy with it.

To answer your question I suggest you look at CentOS http://www.centos.org/ . The latest version of uses Gnome 2 and will be supported by upgrades for 7 years. I have tried the live-cd and I was impressed with its look and stability. The only downside is that it uses rpm packaging rather than the more familiar deb. From a quick glance it seems that some popular multimedia codecs are not available in the repository and it would be necessary to source them from elsewhere.
Fuduntu is another one. But what's going to happen down the road? GNOME 2 support is dead, right?

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Re: What is happening to MInt

Post by Aethyr »

bimsebasse wrote:took time to understand what in Mint the Mint devs have control over
They have control over what Desktop they support. And supporting GNOME-Shell was the wrong choice. If people didn't use GNOME 3 on their distros, and if donations to the GNOME project stopped etc we might rid ourselves of this horrendous piece of Apple-wannabe software. Might be a bit mean to say that I would like to see the GNOME project disappear after all they've given to Linux... but I would certainly like Shell to disappear.

Cinnamon was an interesting move by Clem. Tactically it was a good move. I'm unsure as to whether he will be able to cope with all this work, but hey - if anyone could ever pull it off in the Linux world right now, it would be Clem. I still don't like Cinnamon - it isn't very different from Shell - but hopefully we will see some Cinnamon + Compiz in the future, and a better MintMenu...

And if not, well... I just hope XFCE doesn't screw it up next :mrgreen:
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Re: What is happening to MInt

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Aethyr wrote:And supporting GNOME-Shell was the wrong choice. If people didn't use GNOME 3 on their distros, and if donations to the GNOME project stopped etc we might rid ourselves of this horrendous piece of Apple-wannabe software. Might be a bit mean to say that I would like to see the GNOME project disappear after all they've given to Linux... but I would certainly like Shell to disappear.
Don't hold your breath waiting for GNOME Shell to disappear. Looks like there are lots of people like me out there who love using it. :D

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Re: What is happening to MInt

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MALsPa wrote:
Terryphi wrote:
holesovice wrote: Can anyone please suggest a linux that is not going to be using Gnome 3?.
I sympathize with what you say. Personally, I am going to stick with Mint 9 until its end of life because I am very happy with it.

To answer your question I suggest you look at CentOS http://www.centos.org/ . The latest version uses Gnome 2 and will be supported by upgrades for 7 years. I have tried the live-cd and I was impressed with its look and stability. The only downside is that it uses rpm packaging rather than the more familiar deb. From a quick glance it seems that some popular multimedia codecs are not available in the repository and it would be necessary to source them from elsewhere.
Fuduntu is another one. But what's going to happen down the road? GNOME 2 support is dead, right?
So a system is frozen with Gnome 2. What is the problem if you are happy with the desktop and the program versions you have?
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