unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

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windyweather
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unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by windyweather » Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:20 pm

I just saw an update come through for Unattended-updates. So I did a little research about whether we were getting a new feature. Apparently not. Well I run 5 systems here myself and I have friends that I have set up to run LM 17 in VMs for better security for their financial dealings. But while I'm a geek [Yes. Retired geek after 35 years doing SW and HW.], they are not.

Some research indicates editing a bunch of system files to some things, which may or may not be out of date in the last 1 or 2 years since they were written. Yes I can use an editor, but that's a pain on my 5 systems. How about a checkbox to say "Do Unattended Security Updates."

So what's the deal with a user friendly interface for unattended-updates? Do we have one that is hidden?
In prefs of the update manager I see "Always select security updates" and when I do that I get some red things that have been there for ages that want to update firmware and the kernel - I asked a long time ago and those apparently are not interesting for me. So that wasn't what I wanted.

I don't know of any other settings or prefs that cause security updates to occur automatically.

Cudos on updating the system so frequently, but it's driving me nuts over my my 5 systems and my friends just never do them.

Help for those of us who want a break or don't have a clue?
- ww
[LM 18, LM 19 in VirtualBox / Windows 10 Host on AMD Ryzen 1800x, 32GB, 1TB of SSDs]

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by runruckus » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:18 pm

I have that same problem after installing for friends, But long story short.
I'm sure you have seen this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Autom ... ityUpdates
If you are unsure as to what this dose Do Not Use.
But my friends not having the same experience as me, I made a .bashrc Script(Which Is not not what you were asking for) That saved them some typing.
And they seem quite content with.
I don't know if Mint comes with the ".bashrc" in Home or not I just put it there after a Fresh Install with no Ill effects.
I Created a Alias That run from terminal
ud=sudo apt-get update
ud2=sudo apt-get upgrade
ud3=sudo apt-get autoremove
If you are interested My .bashrc Looks like this

Code: Select all

# some more ls aliases
alias ll='ls -alF'
alias la='ls -A'
alias l='ls -CF'


# update aliases
alias ud='sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get clean'
alias ud2='sudo apt-get dist-upgrade'
alias ud3='sudo apt-get autoremove'
If Not Kindly Disregard. :)
Last edited by runruckus on Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:49 pm

Unattended upgrades, while possible, are risky. You should always update yourself, knowing what you're doing, so that you can act if things go wrong. Therefore it shouldn't be made easy to enable unattended upgrades.

@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by runruckus » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:08 pm

Pjotr wrote:Unattended upgrades, while possible, are risky. You should always update yourself, knowing what you're doing, so that you can act if things go wrong. Therefore it shouldn't be made easy to enable unattended upgrades.

@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
Not sure I follow How do i bypass?
It is nothing more than "sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade" etc etc
Are speaking of just the sample of my .bashrc?
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:18 pm

runruckus wrote:
Pjotr wrote:@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
Not sure I follow How do i bypass?
It is nothing more than "sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade" etc etc
Are speaking of just the sample of my .bashrc?
The levels are only in Update Manager.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by runruckus » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:46 pm

Pjotr wrote:
runruckus wrote:
Pjotr wrote:@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
Not sure I follow How do i bypass?
It is nothing more than "sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade" etc etc
Are speaking of just the sample of my .bashrc?
The levels are only in Update Manager.
Not trying to sound argumentative but how is it different? If those levels have not been altered?
Are you saying apt-get Differs from Update-Manager? Been running that for 5+years now on mine and friends I have Installed.
I come from a time when we called the update-manager the update-mangler. :shock:
Are you talking of the dist-upgrade command?
Maybe there is some new info I'm not aware of.
Kind Regards
“It is more fun to talk with someone who doesn't use long, difficult words but rather short, easy words like "What about lunch?”
― A.A. Milne

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:37 am

runruckus wrote:Not trying to sound argumentative but how is it different? If those levels have not been altered?
Are you saying apt-get Differs from Update-Manager?
Yes. Only Update Manager applies levels to the updates. Whereas apt-get just installs all of the updates indiscriminately, like in Ubuntu.

The advantage of the levels is, that your system will be extra stable and extra reliable if you stick to the default settings of Update Manager. See this information: https://sites.google.com/site/easylinuxtipsproject/20
Tip: 10 things to do after installing Linux Mint 19.2 Tina
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by runruckus » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:42 pm

Thanks for all the information. I will certainly heed your advise when offering help to others.
But I live on the bleeding edge(lol) and certainly know where the blood comes from in my choices.
I participate in various development-cycles on various OS's So I know what to expect, and how to for the most part recover from mishaps.(For lack of a better term)
I test a lot of kernels and also have the need to compile some packages from time to time so I have taken the training wheels off :D

Code: Select all

System:    Host: me-Aspire-M3300 Kernel: 4.0.6-040006-lowlatency x86_64 (64 bit, gcc: 4.6.3) 
           Desktop: N/A Distro: Linux Mint 17.2 Rafaela
Machine:   System: Acer product: Aspire M3300
           Mobo: Acer model: FRS780M Bios: American Megatrends version: P03-B0 date: 11/16/2009
CPU:       Quad core AMD Phenom II X4 810 (-MCP-) cache: 2048 KB flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4a svm) bmips: 20743.1 
           Clock Speeds: 1: 2600.00 MHz 2: 800.00 MHz 3: 2600.00 MHz 4: 800.00 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GF119 [GeForce GT 520] bus-ID: 01:00.0 
           X.Org: 1.15.1 drivers: nvidia (unloaded: fbdev,vesa,nouveau) Resolution: 1920x1080@60.0hz 
           GLX Renderer: GeForce GT 520/PCIe/SSE2 GLX Version: 4.5.0 NVIDIA 352.21 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card-1: NVIDIA GF119 HDMI Audio Controller driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 01:00.1 
           Card-2: Creative Labs SB Audigy driver: snd_emu10k1 port: e800 bus-ID: 04:05.0 
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture ver: k4.0.6-040006-lowlatency
Network:   Card: Marvell 88E8071 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet Controller driver: sky2 ver: 1.30 port: c800 bus-ID: 02:00.0
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full mac: <filter>
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 2500.5GB (17.7% used) 1: id: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD20EADS size: 2000.4GB 
           2: id: /dev/sdb model: WDC_WD5000AADS size: 500.1GB 
Partition: ID: / size: 150G used: 26G (19%) fs: ext4 ID: swap-1 size: 6.44GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap 
           ID: swap-2 size: 6.44GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap 
RAID:      No RAID devices detected - /proc/mdstat and md_mod kernel raid module present
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 49.0C mobo: 48.5C gpu: 0.0:50C 
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A 
Info:      Processes: 202 Uptime: 5:00 Memory: 996.1/5967.1MB Runlevel: 2 Gcc sys: 4.8.4 
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.11) inxi: 1.9.17 
me@me-Aspire-M3300:~$ 
Respectful Regards
“It is more fun to talk with someone who doesn't use long, difficult words but rather short, easy words like "What about lunch?”
― A.A. Milne

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Distro-Don » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:00 pm

I don't know if this will help or not but for years I have used this with no problems at all.

$ sudo aptitude update; sudo aptitude -y safe-upgrade

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What's the goal of Linux Mint anyway?

Post by windyweather » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:54 pm

Pjotr wrote:Unattended upgrades, while possible, are risky. You should always update yourself, knowing what you're doing, so that you can act if things go wrong. Therefore it shouldn't be made easy to enable unattended upgrades.

@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
I've heard this argument before... For many years now.
I have a few points vis-a-vis this:
  • How, as a Geek, but not a Linux Mint project insider, do you expect me to evaluate the riskyness of just taking every update that I'm offered?
  • How, as a non-Geek friend of mine, do you expect them to evaluate the riskyness of same.
  • In the face of this, what would you expect me to do? Send you and email and ask you if the updates are safe?
So what you seem to be saying is that the Linux Mint - or Ubuntu - projects are not really ready for prime-time use by other than the Geek Intelligencia? Well I've been using LM for many years now and that has not been my experience. My experience is that I close my eyes and click on update and OK or YES every time I'm offered and it always works. Oh maybe a couple of years ago it failed once. So there.

And another thing. Seems to work for Windows? Windows of all flavors has automatic update and the wisdom is to enable Automatic update unless you are a business with an IT department and lots of local apps that might be broken in arcane ways. Is it not the goal of Linux Mint to be as reliable and easy to use as Windows 7? Aren't you folks trying to build a better more reliable and easy to use version of what Windows is trying to supply?

My experience is that LM17 is at least as reliable and usable as I expect Windows 10 to be and if all the software that I like to use had a LM version, then I'd toss my 4 Windows systems out and run LM on all 10 of my machines.

So back to your argument about automatic updates being risky? What was that again?
- windy
[LM 18, LM 19 in VirtualBox / Windows 10 Host on AMD Ryzen 1800x, 32GB, 1TB of SSDs]

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by windyweather » Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:00 pm

Distro-Don wrote:I don't know if this will help or not but for years I have used this with no problems at all.

$ sudo aptitude update; sudo aptitude -y safe-upgrade
Sorry? Used this? For what? If I type this into my terminal window what do I expect to happen?
  • One update applied?
  • The system changed to always apply updates automatically from now on?
  • The world to light up and Santa Claus to arrive at my front door?
I have no freaking clue what you are suggesting, even tho I know what the word sudo means.
- ww
[LM 18, LM 19 in VirtualBox / Windows 10 Host on AMD Ryzen 1800x, 32GB, 1TB of SSDs]


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Re: What's the goal of Linux Mint anyway?

Post by Pjotr » Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:12 am

windyweather wrote:
Pjotr wrote:Unattended upgrades, while possible, are risky. You should always update yourself, knowing what you're doing, so that you can act if things go wrong. Therefore it shouldn't be made easy to enable unattended upgrades.

@runruckus: with your script, you bypass the entire level system of updates for Mint. That's not sensible: it's there for a reason.
I've heard this argument before... For many years now.
I have a few points vis-a-vis this:
  • How, as a Geek, but not a Linux Mint project insider, do you expect me to evaluate the riskyness of just taking every update that I'm offered?
  • How, as a non-Geek friend of mine, do you expect them to evaluate the riskyness of same.
  • In the face of this, what would you expect me to do? Send you and email and ask you if the updates are safe?
So what you seem to be saying is that the Linux Mint - or Ubuntu - projects are not really ready for prime-time use by other than the Geek Intelligencia? Well I've been using LM for many years now and that has not been my experience. My experience is that I close my eyes and click on update and OK or YES every time I'm offered and it always works. Oh maybe a couple of years ago it failed once. So there.

And another thing. Seems to work for Windows? Windows of all flavors has automatic update and the wisdom is to enable Automatic update unless you are a business with an IT department and lots of local apps that might be broken in arcane ways. Is it not the goal of Linux Mint to be as reliable and easy to use as Windows 7? Aren't you folks trying to build a better more reliable and easy to use version of what Windows is trying to supply?

My experience is that LM17 is at least as reliable and usable as I expect Windows 10 to be and if all the software that I like to use had a LM version, then I'd toss my 4 Windows systems out and run LM on all 10 of my machines.

So back to your argument about automatic updates being risky? What was that again?
- windy
Let me repeat this part of my previous message for you:
so that you can act if things go wrong.

Old wisdom: updates are things that repair old, known bugs and introduce new, unknown bugs.
Murphy's law: anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.

And there's also this burning question: what if grandma inadvertently shuts down her computer, maybe even in the wrong way, while updates are being installed automatically "under the hood"?

Automatic updates are simply..... reckless. There's not one capable system administrator on this imperfect lonely planet of ours, that enables them *in any operating system*. Note the word "capable". And that includes home users with sysadmin rights on their own computers. As always, with the exception of experienced intrepid experimenters doing wild things on their test boxes just for fun.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by administrollaattori » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:06 am

The fact is that most of people are too ignorant to push blue mintupdate icon, so their computers do not update at all. For them automatic updates is better choice than some critical browser hole (Flash, Java, etc.) for example.

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:10 am

administrollaattori wrote:The fact is that most of people are too ignorant to push blue mintupdate icon, so their computers do not update at all.
That's indeed a known problem in some cases.... Which I think might be largely solved by a popup window reminding of available updates.

Do you know if such a popup window has ever been considered by the devs? It's a feature that would be very useful, I think.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:03 am

OK, I've written a how-to for making updates more prominent in Mint 17.2 Cinnamon:
https://sites.google.com/site/easylinux ... -prominent
(item 3.8, right column)

It's a workaround, because a popup window with an update warning (whenever there would actually be updates) would of course be nicer. But it'll do, I think.

Comparable instructions for Mate and Xfce will follow.... Stay posted! :)
Last edited by Pjotr on Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Cosmo. » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:18 am

Why not simply activate the new setting, that the tray icon gets only displayed in case there is an update available? So, if there appears the icon in the tray, there is something to update.

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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by Pjotr » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:33 am

Cosmo. wrote:Why not simply activate the new setting, that the tray icon gets only displayed in case there is an update available? So, if there appears the icon in the tray, there is something to update.
It's still very small.... Some people need something that's more "in their face", or they simply will neglect it. Like my own family members, unfortunately.... :(
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by runruckus » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:16 pm

administrollaattori wrote:I have updated the next way:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=190241
Thanks for that link! I am(myself) going this route for a bit before I add it to my cronies installs.
Setting here giving myself a face palm for not thinking of this myself. :roll:
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Re: unattended-updates needs a user friendly interface

Post by administrollaattori » Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:48 pm

Pjotr wrote:
Cosmo. wrote:Why not simply activate the new setting, that the tray icon gets only displayed in case there is an update available? So, if there appears the icon in the tray, there is something to update.
It's still very small.... Some people need something that's more "in their face", or they simply will neglect it. Like my own family members, unfortunately.... :(
I made a simply popup, which can launch mintupdate. :lol:
Add the script to the startup applications, so it pops its up within 60 second.

Code: Select all

#! /bin/bash
sleep 200 && zenity --info --text="Check updates by clicking this popup!"
mintupdate
exit 0
check updates popup.png
check updates popup.png (11.78 KiB) Viewed 686 times
Edit: Sleep time before checking must be more than 60 seconds, so I increased time to 200 seconds.
Attachments
check_updates.sh.tar.gz
(215 Bytes) Downloaded 125 times
Last edited by administrollaattori on Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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