It's not ready to replace Windows yet

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hokkers999
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It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hokkers999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:18 am

I have dabbled with Linux on and off since 2000, trying various flavours along the way, all without too much success really. For the first 3 years of that time my job was VoIP, and that took a lot of time (well the travel did anyway) so I just tinkered a bit.

Then I joined financial services.

The last time I tried, I used Knoppix; when it would even recognise a 3-com ethernet card, I just binned the cd. That was about 3 years ago.

I stumbled (literally) across this web site at the weekend and figured I would try and install it on a couple of computers in the house. My desktop (xp-dual core, 4gig ram) and my wife's laptop (Fujitsu Amilo Pro).

Tried booting from a USB, following the instructions to make a bootable stick. No go. I can boot XP from the stick so I know my pc can do it. Oh well.

Burn a cd instead. Stick it in the laptop and power up. All goes well until it tries to activate the graphics bit. All I get on the screen is a bit of "squiggle" in the bottom right corner and it hangs. Hmmm. Reboot it and choose "compatibility" mode. It starts up but says it will be in low graphics mode. Click OK and it goes through the trying to detect the graphics again. Comes back and says it will be in low graphics mode. Clock ok, then you can guess the rest. I gave up after 5 times around the loop.

On to my desktop instead. Boot the cd and it all starts up fine, browse the internet no problem. Try the install, that worked fine as well, it even dual boots. Fine so far.

Open up the "network" icon, to find that it can't see anything on my home network, not the 2 NAS units or the other 3 pc's. How difficult can this be? I look on these forums and see references to smb and stuff. It seems like I have smb and stuff installed but apparently my desktop now inhabits a world of one.

Then I realise it's also a silent world! Hadn't noticed that at first. The volume control isn't at zero, and there's no red cross. Playing with the sound controls (the one's I could find anyway) makes no difference. Back onto this board and find some stuff about - open a terminal, type in apsc -l or something. It tells me that I have an Intel HDA xxx (882 I think don't remember) bit of hardware.

So it knows what I have but it won't play any sounds. At all, after an hour of experimenting.

Contrast that to Windows, when I installed it, everything "just worked".

That to me seems to be the main reason why Linux hasn't really taken hold yet. It's just too difficult to set up. I shouldn't have to spend hours editing config files etc, computers are supposed to be smart, all that should just "happen". Whatever people may say about the quality of Windows, you have to admit that you plug in it in and it works.

I am not ranting here, if it works for you then fine, it doesn't work for us. Would have been nice, but....Oh well, back to the Windows world and we'll try again in another couple of years.

Edit: If this is the wrong place to post this I apologise, this seemed the best section.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by DataMan » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:23 am

Stay happy in Windows!

-DataMan
Linux'd since 2005 Linux ID 422356 Ubuntu ID 15015

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hokkers999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:34 am

That was the general idea. I'm sure that one day it will all work easily enough for non technical people to use straight out of the box, and it will be great to have a choice. Keep up the good work, it's come a long way in the last couple of years ago since I last looked.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:39 am

Really? Windows just works?
Browse through hundreds of those Windows forums, you would see there are also people who can not even get Windows installer to start, among various other issues. Get your facts right, and you will be asking yourself what was it that ever got on your mind that made you post a pointless piece of crap like this.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hokkers999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:58 am

"Really? Windows just works?
Browse through hundreds of those Windows forums, you would see there are also people who can not even get Windows installer to start, among various other issues. Get your facts right, and you will be asking yourself what was it that ever got on your mind that made you post a pointless piece of crap like this."

and that is PRECISELY the attitude why you'll never hit mainstream. Perhaps you forgot to read the title of the forum?

Thank your for your very carefully considered and well thought out opinion.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by rivenought » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:03 am

hokkers999,

I noticed that your first post was your closing arguments in regards to Linux. Not once did you bother to inquire about something, nor post any information in regards to your systems. Granted, you searched the forums, which is more than some would do. However, if you had been serious about getting Linux to work, you would have posted your questions. I am pretty sure there are plenty of people in this forum ready and willing to help with suggestions. Chances are, someone in here might have your same hardware and what to do about it.

I have not used Windows since 2000. Linux simply works. I have never had to install any drivers that were not already found either on the disc or in the repositories to get any system of mine to function. I have put together a fair amount of systems for others, as well.

Some of us have better experiences with hardware than others, this is true. We all might have a questions about something and we do not hesitate to ask for help. You had questions, but never asked anyone. That is your fault.

Now, an idea might be for you to look in your local area for some kind of Linux Install Fest or Linux Users Group. Ubuntu has plenty of them. If you are serious about learning, contact them. You will learn a great deal about Linux, as well as Windows, surprisingly. That is is, if you want to learn instead of complain.

Now, if you really want to experience all the advantages of the Linux world, make some posts so we can get started. If you just wanted to complain, well, thanks for stopping by. Please do feel free to come by anytime.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hokkers999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:09 am

rivenought wrote:hokkers999,

I noticed that your first post was your closing arguments in regards to Linux. Not once did you bother to inquire about something, nor post any information in regards to your systems. Granted, you searched the forums, which is more than some would do. However, if you had been serious about getting Linux to work, you would have posted your questions. I am pretty sure there are plenty of people in this forum ready and willing to help with suggestions. Chances are, someone in here might have your same hardware and what to do about it.

I have not used Windows since 2000. Linux simply works. I have never had to install any drivers that were not already found either on the disc or in the repositories to get any system of mine to function. I have put together a fair amount of systems for others, as well.

Some of us have better experiences with hardware than others, this is true. We all might have a questions about something and we do not hesitate to ask for help. You had questions, but never asked anyone. That is your fault.

Now, an idea might be for you to look in your local area for some kind of Linux Install Fest or Linux Users Group. Ubuntu has plenty of them. If you are serious about learning, contact them. You will learn a great deal about Linux, as well as Windows, surprisingly. That is is, if you want to learn instead of complain.

Now, if you really want to experience all the advantages of the Linux world, make some posts so we can get started. If you just wanted to complain, well, thanks for stopping by. Please do feel free to come by anytime.
A sensible reply! The reason I didn't post any questions was that I wasn't really seeking any answers to be honest. I wasn't complaining either actually, if it came across that way that's my fault. I was simply stating my experiences with trying to get it working. It may well have been that devoting dozens more hours to it might have got it working, but I have more important things to do with my life. To me a computer is a tool to do a job. Every now and then you try a new tool, if it doesn't work you stick with the tool that does.

Obviously I struck unlucky with my hardware combination and you dropped lucky with yours, that's life sometimes. But that's what makes things interesting isn't it?

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:20 am

and that is PRECISELY the attitude why you'll never hit mainstream. Perhaps you forgot to read the title of the forum?

Thank your for your very carefully considered and well thought out opinion.
I know the title of the forum very well. But it is you who do not grasp with the main purpose of this forum. This is a place to get help and a place for users to help each other, not to rant. If you have something that you want to inquire, you could post it in a civilized manner and you will definitely get proper reponse.

Granted, you stated that you did not intend to rant in your original post. But that does not reflect nor does it represent the bottom line of the rest of your statement. You did not post to get help... You wanted to vent off your frustration towards us. You can say what you want, I read your entire post carefully.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hokkers999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:39 am

garda wrote:
and that is PRECISELY the attitude why you'll never hit mainstream. Perhaps you forgot to read the title of the forum?

Thank your for your very carefully considered and well thought out opinion.
I know the title of the forum very well. But it is you who do not grasp with the main purpose of this forum. This is a place to get help and a place for users to help each other, not to rant. If you have something that you want to inquire, you could post it in a civilized manner and you will definitely get proper reponse.

Granted, you stated that you did not intend to rant in your original post. But that does not reflect nor does it represent the bottom line of the rest of your statement. You did not post to get help... You wanted to vent off your frustration towards us. You can say what you want, I read your entire post carefully.
I did post in a very civilized manner. I wasn't blunt and rude. I wasn't venting frustration at your or anybody. Sorry you seemed to take it as a personal insult. You have though correctly grasped that I was making a statement - yes I was, of my experiences. It may help others, it may not. What I do know though is that your attitude of "you can't make it work so your dumb" helps no one. Good job your teachers never took that attitude isn't it?

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:49 am

It may help others, it may not.
Which part of your post that you think may help someone, anyone at all?

You did not offer any solution, now did you? All you said was that something worked there, and it did not worked here, you had tried this and you had tried that. Where is the helpful part?

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by monkeyboy » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:53 am

Dude, I just checked your "user statistics" and it appears you registered on the forum today just to say you are leaving? :roll: All of you forum posts (5) are attached to this thread? I think that your claim to this not a rant is a bit thin. Enjoy Microsoft. :mrgreen:
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by hyperdrive » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:11 pm

Okay there is no reason for me to add to this except to post my own personal experience.. I was a Windows user for a LONG time (3.11 through Vista) and quite frankly, while there is more driver support, and more overall software choice, there are two main things I did not like about it.



1) It gave control of my computer to big-business instead of where the control belongs.. with me.


Every piece of Windows software was advertising something.. Windows Media player advertises the online store, Instant Messengers show ads all over, my computer becomes like a giant neon billboard, and don't get me started on the data mining and collecting "anonymous usage data" that most programs use... I'm not even doing anything illegal, I just want my computer to be mine alone! Call me selfish if you'd like.

2) The software is overpriced


I'll be blunt here... I am a small business owner, the U.S. economy is in a downturn... I paid a lot for the computer itself. I can't afford another $1,000 just for all the extra software I need to make the computer actually perform useful tasks. This does not make me a cheapskate. I know that these developers need help -- and in the next few months I plan to donate to this project because Mint is amazing -- and I donate my time here helping others when I can as well... However charging $200 for things like a photo editor (inferior now to GIMP in my opinion) and $300 for a website editor is insane, and no way to help struggling workers get back on their feet.

To top it all off, I actually posted some of these concerns on the Microsoft discussion groups (twice)... I was not rude in any way and actually tried to help, they basically told me to get lost, so I did.. :D

For me.. Linux has replaced Windows... All of my windows software has been replaced by Linux software... All of my hardware runs, and some functions slightly better, I don't even rune WINE or Crossover office.. my laptop is Linux only, and I couldn't be happier.

To the OP... If you need help getting something to run, just ask... this community is good and friendly... However if you have the money to burn on Windows software, send some my way.. I'll give you my PayPal address. :mrgreen:
Last edited by hyperdrive on Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:15 pm

hokkers999,

If I may, I would like to use you to make a point. I certainly do not mean to be derogatory towards you. There are a great number of people that feel the same way you do and you are absolutely entitled to your world view and point of reference.

In my opinion Dataman had the best answer to this post. ie "Stay happy in Windows!"

There is far too much evangelism/pressure from the Linux user community and commercial entities these days to convert Windows users to Linux. In the end I fear it is counter productive for both Windows users and Linux.

hokkers999 has dabbled with Linux for several years, off and on, and has not seen the advantages Linux has for him. He sees his computer as a tool that he has become comfortable with over time, and has learned to live with Windows and its' limitations, warts and all. Windows is what he expects a computer to be. He doesn't know anything else and has no desire to learn. He is just waiting for Linux to become enough like Windows that he can make a relatively painless transition. This gentleman, and many like him, is Microsoft's bread and butter. Literally billions of dollars in marketing have been spent to get him into this position and set-up his expectations so they can only be met by Microsoft. He is locked in to Microsoft, and doesn't mind enough to be willing to take the time and make the effort to learn a better/different way of doing things with a computer, which is exactly the way Microsoft wants to keep it.

To push this gentleman, and others like him, into Linux serves no useful purpose. He will not be happy and will ultimately return to Windows and carry negative advertising about Linux with him. In short we, as the Linux community, have not done him any favors. He will only see it as having been mislead into believing Linux was now like Windows. Which of course it is not, and hopefully never will be. Nothing will ever be as much like Windows as Windows itself, by definition. So this argument is destined to failure.

In order for this gentleman to be willing to put forth the effort to break away from Microsoft, will require his pain level limit to be exceeded on a regular basis. In short he will take the path of least resistance. The only productive thing we can do is to let it be known that there is a better, faster, more efficient, more flexible way of doing things with a computer, if you are willing to put forth the time and effort to learn how. Only when he can envision a positive productivity/cost benefit will he seriously entertain an investment of his time and mental resources. Even though these things do in fact exist today, his world view, as programed by Microsoft marketing, is blinded to them. Being basically lazy, only the increasing pain of using Windows will motivate him to look for alternatives.

Much has been done in the last few years to try to reduce the steepness of the learning curve. But the fact remains that the only way to remove the learning curve would be to build a clone of Windows. That would defeat the purpose now wouldn't it. There would be no advantage to moving to Linux if its' capabilities were reduced to the level of Windows.

Finally, to hokkers999. You are probably better off staying with Windows, at least in the short term. When the pain Windows inflicts becomes sufficient to encourage you to learn a better way, you will find many here and in other forums willing to help you free yourself from your shackles. :-)

Fred
Last edited by Fred on Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by AK Dave » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:41 pm

I showed my parents my Dell Mini-9. With Ubuntu. Their response? They bought one of their own. I told them they could get it with XP, but mine came with Ubuntu. They bought Ubuntu. It is what it is, it does what it is supposed to do, and it gets the job done. I had the chance at the same time to repartition their laptop and put Mint or Ubuntu on it, but there really wasn't any point in doing so. The only software they care about on the laptop is a Citrix client (for her), and Audacity (for him). Both run on XP. So I cleaned up XP to make the laptop functional so that it can do what it is supposed to do and get the job done.

Their perception of computers is as consumer electronic devices. Different OS? Do something else with it? Nah, stick with what the manufacturer installed.

That attitude is representative of the vast majority of people I interact with. They're not sheeple. They're just comfortable being "served". They want, pretty much like hokkers, a computer to do what it is supposed to do without a lot of dramatics or complaint. Me? I don't mind a little tuning and tweaking if that means I have better control of my hardware, my software, and most importantly my data - and what I do with all three (ie, DRM).

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:45 pm

Well put Fred.

The simple truth is NO ONE profits from your use of Linux. There are a great many Linux users who are zealous and want to defeat Windows...Whatever. Most of us are the serious, mentally stable type. You gave Linux a shot, actually more than one for many years now, and you simply cannot use it. Fine. Go in peace. Use Windows. I just happen to be typing this from Vista myself because it is a Windows world and my school requires Office 2007. Such is life.

But, mister OP, do not bother posting such nonsense as "Linux is not ready to replace Windows yet." This is YOUR stupidity and you are just as bad as the lintards who feel it is necessary to defend their OS! The operating system IS a tool, that is all. Why did you waste your precious time to come troll in OUR garden? Just stay with Windows. There are many of us that have used Linux since the last century and can very well exist with Linux only. The few limitations, such as my school, are caused by factors beyond our control, and truth be told Office 2007 runs just fine in Wine so I could plausibly not use Windows. But why? I find Vista is a decent OS and does what I need it to do. As do the various Linux distros I use. In short, and once again, it is YOUR lack of knowledge that is your limiting factor. I just find it amazing that people like you feel the need to advertise this lack of knowledge to the world by posting threads like this.

Use Windows. It works for you.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by bobpur » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:52 pm

Hokker999,

I'm not as eloquent as my compatriots here so this may come off as kind of childish... so you'll understand. I'm not trying to be offensive. Well, maybe a little.

When people point their finger at Mint (and linux in general) and say; "It's not ready for prime time!" or "It'll never replace Windows" I might have believed that myself a few years ago when I started in linux. I think great strides have been made in recent years. If you would have taken the time to learn so as to make an informed rant you wouldn't have ranted. As others have said, it is a rant.

If you'll look at the "pointing finger" example alluded to in the last paragraph and form a mental picture of a pointing finger you'll see three fingers pointing back at the pointer. Yes sir, Hokker999, those three fingers, as well as your initial post, tells me that it is you that is not ready for linux.

Comparatively speaking, Windows is a Honda. Just idiot proof transportation. Linux, on the other hand, is a Norton or Triumph. It does the same job as the Honda; but, you have to "get your hands dirty" from time to time to keep it running. As a result, you have a better understanding (and control) of your computer than the Windows user who could care less as long as it worked. That's why I always marveled at people who take their Windows machine to the local computer shop to be "cleaned" even though all the tools are in their computer to begin with if they'd just take the time to learn. Computer Shops love Windows users with that attitude.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by clem » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:15 pm

Hi,

I'm not interested in the debate so I'll cut straight to the point. Linux isn't for everyone out there and not every piece of hardware works out of the box. Having said that Windows isn't for everyone out there either and not every piece of hardware works out of the box either... depending on your needs and hardware one OS can be better than the other one.

Now, I do take that as valuable feedback because it shows us that there are users who simply do not want to investigate problems. Linux isn't there as a real alternative against Microsoft Windows yet and most people don't have time for it if it doesn't sell itself to them on the very first run. The reality is, people don't mind looking for Windows drivers, they don't mind learning about scandisk, defrag and antiviruses.. they don't mind a lot of things as long as they know it's worth it. They don't mind spending time troubleshooting Windows because they "need" windows. When it comes to Linux, it's usually just an act of curiosity, so either it works out of the box, or it doesn't.

So anyway, to me, that's very valuable feedback.. although most of the problems described here are to do with hardware detection (aka "upstream"). I'm sure Linux will improve on this, since it's the policy of the kernel team, to support as many pieces of hardware as possible. As for us we'll continue to improve on the desktop. When you check back in a couple of years, things will be better again.

Clem.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by clem » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:18 pm

By the way, just as a simple comparison... I'm sure most of us out here would give Windows 7 a try if it was free and straight forward to download. We might even consider leaving it on a partition "if" it worked well and "if" it gave us reasons for us to do that. Of course, the minute something goes wrong many of us would simply ditch the CD. When you don't need something and you're just giving it a try, it needs to play nicely.

That's the only point I wanted to make.

Clem.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by kindofabuzz » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:23 pm

clem wrote:By the way, just as a simple comparison... I'm sure most of us out here would give Windows 7 a try if it was free and straight forward to download. We might even consider leaving it on a partition "if" it worked well and "if" it gave us reasons for us to do that. Of course, the minute something goes wrong many of us would simply ditch the CD. When you don't need something and you're just giving it a try, it needs to play nicely.

That's the only point I wanted to make.

Clem.
Not me. i don't care to ever see Windows again. Linux ftw. :D

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Wilsonsway » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:09 pm

Excuse me but calling people dumb and what not for their views is just as retarded as them doing the same towards those of us that do enjoy Linux. It's no wonder this freakin' world can't get along. For me, Linux works just fine but I'll be damned if I try to 'down' someone else because they have a different point of view. Helpful, constructive criticism will go a lot farther than an acidic tongue any day. :wink:
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