It's not ready to replace Windows yet

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DataMan
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by DataMan »

Stay happy in Windows!

-DataMan
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garda
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda »

Really? Windows just works?
Browse through hundreds of those Windows forums, you would see there are also people who can not even get Windows installer to start, among various other issues. Get your facts right, and you will be asking yourself what was it that ever got on your mind that made you post a pointless piece of crap like this.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by rivenought »

hokkers999,

I noticed that your first post was your closing arguments in regards to Linux. Not once did you bother to inquire about something, nor post any information in regards to your systems. Granted, you searched the forums, which is more than some would do. However, if you had been serious about getting Linux to work, you would have posted your questions. I am pretty sure there are plenty of people in this forum ready and willing to help with suggestions. Chances are, someone in here might have your same hardware and what to do about it.

I have not used Windows since 2000. Linux simply works. I have never had to install any drivers that were not already found either on the disc or in the repositories to get any system of mine to function. I have put together a fair amount of systems for others, as well.

Some of us have better experiences with hardware than others, this is true. We all might have a questions about something and we do not hesitate to ask for help. You had questions, but never asked anyone. That is your fault.

Now, an idea might be for you to look in your local area for some kind of Linux Install Fest or Linux Users Group. Ubuntu has plenty of them. If you are serious about learning, contact them. You will learn a great deal about Linux, as well as Windows, surprisingly. That is is, if you want to learn instead of complain.

Now, if you really want to experience all the advantages of the Linux world, make some posts so we can get started. If you just wanted to complain, well, thanks for stopping by. Please do feel free to come by anytime.

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garda
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda »

and that is PRECISELY the attitude why you'll never hit mainstream. Perhaps you forgot to read the title of the forum?

Thank your for your very carefully considered and well thought out opinion.
I know the title of the forum very well. But it is you who do not grasp with the main purpose of this forum. This is a place to get help and a place for users to help each other, not to rant. If you have something that you want to inquire, you could post it in a civilized manner and you will definitely get proper reponse.

Granted, you stated that you did not intend to rant in your original post. But that does not reflect nor does it represent the bottom line of the rest of your statement. You did not post to get help... You wanted to vent off your frustration towards us. You can say what you want, I read your entire post carefully.

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garda
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by garda »

It may help others, it may not.
Which part of your post that you think may help someone, anyone at all?

You did not offer any solution, now did you? All you said was that something worked there, and it did not worked here, you had tried this and you had tried that. Where is the helpful part?

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by monkeyboy »

Dude, I just checked your "user statistics" and it appears you registered on the forum today just to say you are leaving? :roll: All of you forum posts (5) are attached to this thread? I think that your claim to this not a rant is a bit thin. Enjoy Microsoft. :mrgreen:
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

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However doing it in public is really hardcore.

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Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

hokkers999,

If I may, I would like to use you to make a point. I certainly do not mean to be derogatory towards you. There are a great number of people that feel the same way you do and you are absolutely entitled to your world view and point of reference.

In my opinion Dataman had the best answer to this post. ie "Stay happy in Windows!"

There is far too much evangelism/pressure from the Linux user community and commercial entities these days to convert Windows users to Linux. In the end I fear it is counter productive for both Windows users and Linux.

hokkers999 has dabbled with Linux for several years, off and on, and has not seen the advantages Linux has for him. He sees his computer as a tool that he has become comfortable with over time, and has learned to live with Windows and its' limitations, warts and all. Windows is what he expects a computer to be. He doesn't know anything else and has no desire to learn. He is just waiting for Linux to become enough like Windows that he can make a relatively painless transition. This gentleman, and many like him, is Microsoft's bread and butter. Literally billions of dollars in marketing have been spent to get him into this position and set-up his expectations so they can only be met by Microsoft. He is locked in to Microsoft, and doesn't mind enough to be willing to take the time and make the effort to learn a better/different way of doing things with a computer, which is exactly the way Microsoft wants to keep it.

To push this gentleman, and others like him, into Linux serves no useful purpose. He will not be happy and will ultimately return to Windows and carry negative advertising about Linux with him. In short we, as the Linux community, have not done him any favors. He will only see it as having been mislead into believing Linux was now like Windows. Which of course it is not, and hopefully never will be. Nothing will ever be as much like Windows as Windows itself, by definition. So this argument is destined to failure.

In order for this gentleman to be willing to put forth the effort to break away from Microsoft, will require his pain level limit to be exceeded on a regular basis. In short he will take the path of least resistance. The only productive thing we can do is to let it be known that there is a better, faster, more efficient, more flexible way of doing things with a computer, if you are willing to put forth the time and effort to learn how. Only when he can envision a positive productivity/cost benefit will he seriously entertain an investment of his time and mental resources. Even though these things do in fact exist today, his world view, as programed by Microsoft marketing, is blinded to them. Being basically lazy, only the increasing pain of using Windows will motivate him to look for alternatives.

Much has been done in the last few years to try to reduce the steepness of the learning curve. But the fact remains that the only way to remove the learning curve would be to build a clone of Windows. That would defeat the purpose now wouldn't it. There would be no advantage to moving to Linux if its' capabilities were reduced to the level of Windows.

Finally, to hokkers999. You are probably better off staying with Windows, at least in the short term. When the pain Windows inflicts becomes sufficient to encourage you to learn a better way, you will find many here and in other forums willing to help you free yourself from your shackles. :-)

Fred
Last edited by Fred on Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by AK Dave »

I showed my parents my Dell Mini-9. With Ubuntu. Their response? They bought one of their own. I told them they could get it with XP, but mine came with Ubuntu. They bought Ubuntu. It is what it is, it does what it is supposed to do, and it gets the job done. I had the chance at the same time to repartition their laptop and put Mint or Ubuntu on it, but there really wasn't any point in doing so. The only software they care about on the laptop is a Citrix client (for her), and Audacity (for him). Both run on XP. So I cleaned up XP to make the laptop functional so that it can do what it is supposed to do and get the job done.

Their perception of computers is as consumer electronic devices. Different OS? Do something else with it? Nah, stick with what the manufacturer installed.

That attitude is representative of the vast majority of people I interact with. They're not sheeple. They're just comfortable being "served". They want, pretty much like hokkers, a computer to do what it is supposed to do without a lot of dramatics or complaint. Me? I don't mind a little tuning and tweaking if that means I have better control of my hardware, my software, and most importantly my data - and what I do with all three (ie, DRM).

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Well put Fred.

The simple truth is NO ONE profits from your use of Linux. There are a great many Linux users who are zealous and want to defeat Windows...Whatever. Most of us are the serious, mentally stable type. You gave Linux a shot, actually more than one for many years now, and you simply cannot use it. Fine. Go in peace. Use Windows. I just happen to be typing this from Vista myself because it is a Windows world and my school requires Office 2007. Such is life.

But, mister OP, do not bother posting such nonsense as "Linux is not ready to replace Windows yet." This is YOUR stupidity and you are just as bad as the lintards who feel it is necessary to defend their OS! The operating system IS a tool, that is all. Why did you waste your precious time to come troll in OUR garden? Just stay with Windows. There are many of us that have used Linux since the last century and can very well exist with Linux only. The few limitations, such as my school, are caused by factors beyond our control, and truth be told Office 2007 runs just fine in Wine so I could plausibly not use Windows. But why? I find Vista is a decent OS and does what I need it to do. As do the various Linux distros I use. In short, and once again, it is YOUR lack of knowledge that is your limiting factor. I just find it amazing that people like you feel the need to advertise this lack of knowledge to the world by posting threads like this.

Use Windows. It works for you.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by bobpur »

Hokker999,

I'm not as eloquent as my compatriots here so this may come off as kind of childish... so you'll understand. I'm not trying to be offensive. Well, maybe a little.

When people point their finger at Mint (and linux in general) and say; "It's not ready for prime time!" or "It'll never replace Windows" I might have believed that myself a few years ago when I started in linux. I think great strides have been made in recent years. If you would have taken the time to learn so as to make an informed rant you wouldn't have ranted. As others have said, it is a rant.

If you'll look at the "pointing finger" example alluded to in the last paragraph and form a mental picture of a pointing finger you'll see three fingers pointing back at the pointer. Yes sir, Hokker999, those three fingers, as well as your initial post, tells me that it is you that is not ready for linux.

Comparatively speaking, Windows is a Honda. Just idiot proof transportation. Linux, on the other hand, is a Norton or Triumph. It does the same job as the Honda; but, you have to "get your hands dirty" from time to time to keep it running. As a result, you have a better understanding (and control) of your computer than the Windows user who could care less as long as it worked. That's why I always marveled at people who take their Windows machine to the local computer shop to be "cleaned" even though all the tools are in their computer to begin with if they'd just take the time to learn. Computer Shops love Windows users with that attitude.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by clem »

Hi,

I'm not interested in the debate so I'll cut straight to the point. Linux isn't for everyone out there and not every piece of hardware works out of the box. Having said that Windows isn't for everyone out there either and not every piece of hardware works out of the box either... depending on your needs and hardware one OS can be better than the other one.

Now, I do take that as valuable feedback because it shows us that there are users who simply do not want to investigate problems. Linux isn't there as a real alternative against Microsoft Windows yet and most people don't have time for it if it doesn't sell itself to them on the very first run. The reality is, people don't mind looking for Windows drivers, they don't mind learning about scandisk, defrag and antiviruses.. they don't mind a lot of things as long as they know it's worth it. They don't mind spending time troubleshooting Windows because they "need" windows. When it comes to Linux, it's usually just an act of curiosity, so either it works out of the box, or it doesn't.

So anyway, to me, that's very valuable feedback.. although most of the problems described here are to do with hardware detection (aka "upstream"). I'm sure Linux will improve on this, since it's the policy of the kernel team, to support as many pieces of hardware as possible. As for us we'll continue to improve on the desktop. When you check back in a couple of years, things will be better again.

Clem.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by clem »

By the way, just as a simple comparison... I'm sure most of us out here would give Windows 7 a try if it was free and straight forward to download. We might even consider leaving it on a partition "if" it worked well and "if" it gave us reasons for us to do that. Of course, the minute something goes wrong many of us would simply ditch the CD. When you don't need something and you're just giving it a try, it needs to play nicely.

That's the only point I wanted to make.

Clem.
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by kindofabuzz »

clem wrote:By the way, just as a simple comparison... I'm sure most of us out here would give Windows 7 a try if it was free and straight forward to download. We might even consider leaving it on a partition "if" it worked well and "if" it gave us reasons for us to do that. Of course, the minute something goes wrong many of us would simply ditch the CD. When you don't need something and you're just giving it a try, it needs to play nicely.

That's the only point I wanted to make.

Clem.
Not me. i don't care to ever see Windows again. Linux ftw. :D

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Wilsonsway »

Excuse me but calling people dumb and what not for their views is just as retarded as them doing the same towards those of us that do enjoy Linux. It's no wonder this freakin' world can't get along. For me, Linux works just fine but I'll be damned if I try to 'down' someone else because they have a different point of view. Helpful, constructive criticism will go a lot farther than an acidic tongue any day. :wink:
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by exploder »

I am no stranger to Windows or Linux. How long does it take to Install Windows, update it and install enough applications to have the same functionality as the LinuxMint Main Edition? How long does it take to install LinuxMint and fully update it? Time has value,it takes much more time to set up the Windows system.

What is the memory use of a Windows system compared to a Linux system? Linux uses almost half the memory that Windows uses. Hardware upgrades cost money, doing more with less is better in my opinion. What about hard drive space? A full featured Linux system uses less hard drive space than an equally loaded Windows system. Hard drives are not much of an issue these days but I still prefer not to waste space.

Hardware support in Linux is pretty decent these days. Needed drivers are in the repos, no searching all over the internet for drivers. Some hardware does not work in Linux but the same can be said for Windows. I have fought to get hardware working in both operating systems.

Windows has the edge for gamers, not because the OS is better for gaming but because the games are written for Windows. Games are slowly being written to run in Linux. Time will tell if Linux systems will be good gaming platforms.

Windows is high maintenance, defragmenting, anti virus scans and disk cleanup. Linux is low maintenance, the occasional apt-get clean command comes to mind. I have removed a lot of viruses from Windows systems and repaired the damage cause by them. Linux has no virus issues, no time wasted running virus scans. Linux systems would appear the more productive solution to me.

There is a learning curve to using Linux but it only exists if you are used to Windows.

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by exploder »

hokkers999, I have to at least give you credit for trying Linux. You have every right to run what works for you. You might want to run a Linux distribution on a test machine or VirtualBox. Once you understand how things work in a Linux system you might find that you like it. Getting things to work is extremely easy but someone once told me that if I knew Windows I was at a disadvantage in learning Linux. It probably would not be any different going to the MacOS, everything would be different from what I know. Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, just keep in mind that this is a Linux forum. :mrgreen:

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Katzedecimal »

If your time is worth one hundred quid an hour, then I don't understand why you're wasting so much of it trolling hissy-princess rants on a non-commercial forum. Mint isn't trying to replace Windows -- that's Ubuntu, go princess at them.

Fellas, someone who creates an account, posts a meaningless rant, attempts to dish arguments then gets snooty about how valuable his time is, is a troll. As the self-appointed N00b Ra-Ra Squad leader, I have a lot of time and compassion for the legitimately frustrated newbies. But I have no sympathy for trolls. :roll:
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Dance without senses, no message I hear
Dance without feeling, I'll dance 'til I'm numb
Dance 'til I think I can overcome" -- Melissa Etheridge

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Katzedecimal wrote:If your time is worth one hundred quid an hour, then I don't understand why you're wasting so much of it trolling hissy-princess rants on a non-commercial forum. Mint isn't trying to replace Windows -- that's Ubuntu, go princess at them.

Fellas, someone who creates an account, posts a meaningless rant, attempts to dish arguments then gets snooty about how valuable his time is, is a troll. As the self-appointed N00b Ra-Ra Squad leader, I have a lot of time and compassion for the legitimately frustrated newbies. But I have no sympathy for trolls. :roll:
yep! I could post at least 50 Linux success stories from 4-5 different distro forums without half trying. For these people Linux is indeed ready to replace Windows. Of course some will stay with it, others will be back on Windows in a month's time. Whatever. Another question, why is the OP so intent to keep trying Linux? Like he really really wants to do it, but just cannot. If Wilsonsway was directing his post at me then I forgive him, he should read deeper. I am not calling anyone "dumb." I am calling people wasting their time with obvious trolls like these as stupid as the lintards who feel like they have to convert the whole world to Linux. I am also saying that anyone who cannot learn to use a distro such as Mint in this day and age has no excuse except their own unwillingness and that it is their own lack of knowledge that is the roadblock. This does not make them "dumb," only unknowledgeable when it comes to Linux. They can either change this state or not, it is their choice.

If the OP is waiting for the day Clem describes, when he will be able to install a Linux distro with no problems, no bugs, and no thought then he might as well just not bother trying again. I installed Vista Ultimate from box retail bought through my school on two HP laptops. I could write you a mile long post on the troubles I encountered, from lack of ANY drivers to the networking. It took almost 3/4 of a workday to get each install up and running right. With Mint I can reformat, install, update, and install all my apps within an hour and be right back to the point I am now. And this is a fresh install! The icing on the cake is I never once had to worry about a driver or codec in Mint. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe I should find a Windows forum I can troll to tell them this? No, my time is too valuable, though I do not make $150 an hour. :roll:

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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by Fred »

I edited my post a bit. Probably worth a re-read. :-)

http://www.linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopi ... es#p126992

Fred
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Re: It's not ready to replace Windows yet

Post by AK Dave »

hokkers999 wrote:I also am self employed and my time is chargeable at £100/hour (~$150).
Check your exchange rate. The Pound took a pounding relative to the dollar. You're not worth as much in exchange as you think you are. :)

But thats irrelevant.

If your time is indeed worth as much as you say it is, and EVERY minute of the day is equally valuable, then you're burning money in your sleep. But thats irrelevant. Taking an hour for dinner at a nice restaurant is the price of the food plus the cost of your time.

But lets say that is true. I doubt it. My time is priced comparable to yours but I'm not billable for more than 8hr/day. Are you billable for 24hr/day? Surely there are hours in your day that are not billable at the above rate. But lets say that there aren't.

The answer is simple: pay someone a pittance of your billable wage to do a job for you and make a computer do what you want it to do. If money is more valuable than time, use your money to buy someone else's time to enable you to spend less time earning more money. Technology offer us tools to leverage more money out of less time, if you know how to use those tools. A Blackberry is a tool; a computer is a tool.

You may well be able to do things easier, faster, better, more efficiently, more productively, and therefore more profitably - or at least more enjoyably, with linux than Windows. If so, it would probably be worth a few minutes, and some cash, to hire someone to "make it so". I know of a bright guy over on your side of the Atlantic who is pretty sharp with Linux and knows Mint inside and out. Name of Clem. May have heard of him.

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